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Disclaimer: Koreans understand that StarCraft 2 is a huge success around the world. Don't assume that they don't know this; however it doesn't seem relevant to their interests, especially in this article.
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/issue/1294108690_1.jpg)
Recently the failure of the Code S tour opening games became a hot issue.
On the second of this month, the 2011 Sony Ericsson GSL January opening ceremony/games turned out to be a failure. This started a debate among SC2 and BW fans across the e-Sports community. While the BW fans are welcoming the news of GSL's failure, SC2 fans think that its too early to tell if GSL failed or not.
Many e-Sports related personal analyzed that the GSL opening ceremonies and games were failure. Even when GomTV held the games in Jang Chung Gym and held the opening ceremony of 32 Code S players, GSL only attracted 500 people. One personal stated: "Along with open season's decline in popularity, the sponsor changed 3 days before the league started. It was hard to tell if this GSL was going to succeed or not."
Some fans who watched GSL on the 2nd made extreme conclusions, stating "BW will live only if SC2 dies", "Serves them right since the opening failed", "Since BW is doing well we only need to watch BW" (etc).
However, this is the wrong idea. In order for BW to live, SC2 needs to succeed, and in order for SC2 to succeed, BW needs to keep its popularity. If we follow some extreme fans who are yelling "one needs to die for other to survive", then we might end up killing both games at once. People need to understand that this is the worst possible situation at the moment.
StarCraft 2 is sequel to StarCraft 1, but both games are clearly different. Just like Tekken, Kart Rider, Special Force, Sudden Attack etc., to BW SC2 is just another e-Sport category/event. It is true that SC2 might threaten BW because both games' genre is RTS, and both games have similar game play. It is also true that because of this reason, BW fans are looking at GSL with some hate.
However, SC2 needs to gain popularity in Korea since Blizzard runs both BW and SC2 servers. Blizzard stated in the interview "We won't stop BW servers just because SC2 came out." However, what will happen if SC2 fails in Korea? Will they keep up the Battlenet service regularly, tolerate private servers etc.? In other terms, will they keep the basic service? There's no guarantee that Blizzard will keep their words. Since Blizzard is owner and distributer of both games in Korea, we need to keep in mind that worst situation might happen.
In addition, for SC2 to succeed BW needs to maintain its popularity. Since the future potential SC2 players will mostly consist of BW players, we can expect SC2 succeed as long as BW maintains its popularity.
StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 can exist together. We will probably have to not worry about the worst possible situations when we see BW progamers play in SC2 leagues without restriction, and/or watching SC2 progamers succeeding in BW leagues. Instead of 'this or that', we need to find a way where BW and SC2 can exist together.
In order for this to happen, not only Gretech-Blizzard and KeSPA-Progame Teams need to put in more effort, but also the fans, who are watching the leagues, need to examine themselves. Instead of yelling out 'GSL failure league' and 'BW illegal league', we need to find a way where both games can exist at the same period of time. Keep in mind that if you put more effort into finding the solution, the KeSPA-Blizzard situation will finally cruise through its problems.
T/N: It's been a long time since I did fomos translation. If I was wrong, feel free to correct me (and send me a PM so that I can fix the OP).
Original Post: + Show Spoiler +최근 스타크래프트2 리그인 GSL 본선 투어 개막전을 실패를 놓고 논쟁이 뜨겁다.
지난 2일, 서울시 장충체육관에서 진행된 2011 소니에릭슨 GSL jJanuary 개막전이 흥행에 실패하면서 e스포츠 관련 커뮤니티에서는 스타크래프트2 팬들과 스타크래프트1 팬들의 설전이 진행되고 있다. 스타1 팬들은 GSL의 흥행 실패를 반기고 있는 반면 스타2 팬들은 아직 리그 전체의 흥행 여부를 판단하기에는 시기상조라는 반응.
많은 e스포츠 관계자들에 따르면 지난 GSL 본선 개막전은 실패했다는 분석이다. 곰TV 스튜디오가 아닌 장충체육관을 대관했고, 코드S에 진출한 32명의 선수들의 오프닝 세리머니가 진행됐음에도 불구하고 500여 명의 관객을 모으는데 그쳤기 때문이다. 한 e스포츠 관계자는 “오픈 시즌 인기가 계속 하락하고 시즌 시작 3일 전 후원사가 바뀌는 등 혼란이 지속돼 본 시즌의 흥행 여부가 불투명했던 것이 사실”이라고 최근 현상을 분석하기도 했다.
GSL 개막전을 본 몇몇 팬들은 “스타2가 망해야 스타1이 산다”, “GSL 개막전이 망해서 고소하다”, “스타1이 흥행하고 있으니 스타1만 보면 된다”는 등 극단적인 반응을 나타내기도 했다.
하지만 이는 잘못된 생각이다. 스타크래프트1이 살기 위해서는 스타크래프트2가 흥행해야 하고, 역시 스타크래프트2가 흥행하기 위해서는 스타크래프트1이 인기 몰이를 계속해야 한다. 몇몇 극단적인 팬들의 말처럼 ‘상대가 죽어야 내가 산다’는 식의 논리는 자칫 스타1과 스타2를 모두 죽이는 최악의 결과를 나을 가능성도 있음을 유의해야 한다.
스타2가 스타1의 후속작임에는 분명하지만 두 게임은 분명 다른 게임이다. 스타1 외에 철권, 카트라이더, 스페셜포스, 서든어택 등 많은 e스포츠 종목들처럼 스타2 역시 새로운 종목 중 하나일 뿐이다. 물론 장르가 RTS로 겹친다는 점과 후속작이기 때문에 게임성이 비슷하다는 점은 스타1에 큰 위협이 될 수 있다. 스타1을 좋아하는 팬들 역시 이런 점을 이유로 스타2 리그인 GSL에 곱지 않은 시선을 보내는 것이 사실이다.
하지만 스타1과 스타2를 서비스하는 게임사가 블리자드로 동일하기 때문에 스타2가 한국에서 인기를 얻어야 한다. 블리자드가 앞서 인터뷰에서 “스타2를 서비스한다고 해서 스타1 서비스를 중지하는 일은 없을 것”이라고 밝혔지만 과연 스타2가 한국에서 흥행 실패를 하게 되면 어떻게 될까? 예전처럼 배틀넷 서비스를 정상적으로 제공하고, 사설 서버를 묵인해주는 등 한국 e스포츠의 근간이 되는 기본 서비스를 계속 유지할까? 이는 확신할 수 없는 일이다. 한국 e스포츠의 근간이 되는 스타크래프트1의 서비스 권리를 블리자드가 모두 가지고 있는 만큼 최악의 상황까지 염두하고 있어야 한다.
마찬가지로 스타2가 흥행하기 위해서는 스타1의 인기 역시 계속되어야 한다. 스타1을 즐기는 유저들이 미래에 스타2를 즐기게 될 잠재 유저인 만큼 스타1이 인기를 유지하고 있어야 스타2 역시 흥행을 기대해볼 수 있기 때문이다.
스타1과 스타2는 충분히 공존할 수 있다. 스타1 프로게이머가 자유롭게 스타2 리그에 출전하고 스타2 선수 역시 스타1 리그에 이름을 올리는 시대가 온다면 위와 같은 최악의 상황은 걱정하지 않아도 될 것이다. 지금은 ‘모 아니면 도’라는 극단적인 생각보다는 서로 공생할 수 있는 방법을 찾기 위해 노력을 기울여야 할 때인 것이다.
그러기 위해서는 지재권 협상의 주체인 그래텍-블리자드와 한국e스포츠협회-게임단의 노력도 필요하지만, 리그를 지켜보는 팬들의 자성 역시 있어야 한다. ‘스타2 망한 리그’, ‘스타1 불법 리그’가 아니라 스타1과 스타2가 공존할 수 있는 토대를 만들기 위한 노력이 선행되어야만 지재권 협상 역시 순항의 길로 접어들 수 있음을 명심해야 할 것이다.
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I think the new format is bad for new players trying to make a name for themselves. Now the only thing other people have left is MLG and dreamhack which are pretty meh compared to the prestige and money you get for even playing in GSL.
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No evidence was given of the failure. Are they just referring to the personal attendees? What is the TV/online viewership numbers?
Good post, though.
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Lol fomos is so pro-sc2, BW doesn't need sc2, if sc2 died BW would just go on as normal. Although I for one would like to see both leagues do well (kinda).
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However, this is the wrong idea. In order for BW to live, SC2 needs to succeed, and in order for SC2 to succeed, BW needs to keep its popularity. If we follow some extreme fans who are yelling "one needs to die for other to survive", then we might end up killing both games at once. People need to understand that this is the worst possible situation at the moment.
I agree with some parts of this paragraph. I really don't like it when people jump on bandwagons and say "Let X game die so Y game can live!" It seems like a very irrational approach to things. If things can be done so that both survive (and I'm pretty sure there are plenty of things that can be done), then I say go for it. Thank you for the translation, SNM =)
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On January 07 2011 13:35 0neder wrote: No evidence was given of the failure. Are they just referring to the personal attendees? What is the TV/online viewership numbers?
Good post, though. Seems like they're only using attendees at this moment. I do not have stats on online viewership (by the way, GomTV is not aired on cable television).
There were many articles saying that GSL opening ceremony was a failure, given that they borrowed a stadium with 5000 seats, but only 500 were filled up. And less and less at GomTV studio.
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I agree with mega... its like they exspect the readers to be dumb enough to think bw depends on sc2 just because they say it does.
EDIT:I often feel like the korean and non-korean commentators act like the fans are really stupid. Always exagerating the "WOW" factor in a simple moment of micro in pretty boring games of sc2 and immediatly following it up with some statment urging fans to love sc2 just as much as bw. There is so much effort in trying to convince viewers to like the game as opposed to just commentating on the match.
Would Blizzard ever destroy the BW servers out of rage that sc2 fails? They would be attacking their own fans, it's absurd.
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On January 07 2011 13:43 puppykiller wrote: I agree with mega... its like they exscpet the readers to be dumb enough to think bw depends on sc2 just becuase they say it does. Wrong.
If SC2 dies but BW lives, what will Blizzard try to do? Just let KeSPA run the tournaments?
The end result is not guaranteed in this situation. However, Blizzard will take much more severe action if its league dies.
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Doesn't the online stream get well over 200k viewers average?
They reported something like 450k when boxer first played
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The opening GSL ceremonies is more a really bad decision than a failure.
MBC or OGN could try to have some type of opening ceremony for MSL/OSL and I don't think it could draw 500+ people.
people care about finals or games between big names. they care much less for a ceremony to announce the people who have qualified for the tournament.
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On January 07 2011 13:37 Megaliskuu wrote: Lol fomos is so pro-sc2, BW doesn't need sc2, if sc2 died BW would just go on as normal. Although I for one would like to see both leagues do well (kinda). This. I'm perfectly fine with SC2 becoming really big in korea, it's not a bad game. Just don't touch BW.
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On January 07 2011 13:43 puppykiller wrote: I agree with mega... its like they expect the readers to be dumb enough to think bw depends on sc2 just because they say it does.
Personally, I think it might be worse than people think if SC2 fails but BW survives. Considering the actions that Blizzard is taking right now with the BW scene, imagine what happens if SC2 completely dies off. Blizzard will either try to have to get profits from BW (doubt that'll happen), or they will have to remove BW completely (against popular opinion) so that SC2 is forced down their throats. I don't really know if this will happen, but it seems like a possibility in worst case scenario
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United States5162 Posts
On January 07 2011 13:47 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:43 puppykiller wrote: I agree with mega... its like they exscpet the readers to be dumb enough to think bw depends on sc2 just becuase they say it does. Wrong. If SC2 dies but BW lives, what will Blizzard try to do? Just let KeSPA run the tournaments? The end result is not guaranteed in this situation. However, Blizzard will take much more severe action if its league dies.
You really think there's a good chance that Blizzard would try to take down professional BW as we know it if SC2 turns out to be a bust in Korea? Alienating a entire country like that seems like a poor business move. I would assume even if SC2 isn't an Esports success they would still like to sell some copies of it in Korea.
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I think this is silly to begin with by thinking that GSL's success is tied to the number of non-paying attendees they attract. Nobody has the viewership numbers that actually matter.
Secondly, I don't see how someone can argue that SC2 is responsible for keeping BW alive in Korea. If the BW community has shown anything it's that they'll do whatever it takes to play their game, whether Blizzard facilitates it or not.
Lastly, as should probably be expected they ignore the very rapid growth of the foreign SC2 community and don't even consider how all the foreign views and subscriptions may effect the equation.
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Australia8532 Posts
I think the article is aiming towards if sc2 fails Blizzard may respond negatively towards the existing BW scene.
I think the success of both games is important for esports in general; two communities can coexist side-by-side. The failure of the opening ceremony is a bit of let down; but in time this game will grow and grow and can only get better.. as long as the $ remains
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On January 07 2011 13:50 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On January 07 2011 13:43 puppykiller wrote: I agree with mega... its like they exscpet the readers to be dumb enough to think bw depends on sc2 just becuase they say it does. Wrong. If SC2 dies but BW lives, what will Blizzard try to do? Just let KeSPA run the tournaments? The end result is not guaranteed in this situation. However, Blizzard will take much more severe action if its league dies. You really think there's a good chance that Blizzard would try to take down professional BW as we know it if SC2 turns out to be a bust in Korea? Alienating a entire country like that seems like a poor business move. I would assume even if SC2 isn't an Esports success they would still like to sell some copies of it in Korea. Do you have any idea how much money they've invested in Korea for SC2?
Blizzard, as we know it right now, will take action no matter what. Worst case possible in this situation will be shutdown of BW leagues (given that KeSPA, MBC, OGN loses court case).
It's more likely that Blizzard will let BW leagues carry on after more negotiations. However, we're assuming the worst possible case here.
And also, e-Sports or not, game is a game. It will sell regardless of the e-Sports situation.
On January 07 2011 13:54 Bear4188 wrote: Lastly, as should probably be expected they ignore the very rapid growth of the foreign SC2 community and don't even consider how all the foreign views and subscriptions may effect the equation. It was a fomos translation. Why would they count foreign viewers/growing community into this?
Honestly they could careless what happens outside of Korea.
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On January 07 2011 13:47 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:43 puppykiller wrote: I agree with mega... its like they exscpet the readers to be dumb enough to think bw depends on sc2 just becuase they say it does. Wrong. If SC2 dies but BW lives, what will Blizzard try to do? Just let KeSPA run the tournaments? The end result is not guaranteed in this situation. However, Blizzard will take much more severe action if its league dies.
you obviously look down on acti-blizz too much, they would not stoop that low, unless it was well worth the time and money spent, which i doubt. If sc2 dies, they would most likely give up on it, since that would seem to be the most cost effective decision. Fighting with kespa after sc2 dying amounts to nothing except alittle bit of satisfaction over revenge.
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On January 07 2011 13:40 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:35 0neder wrote: No evidence was given of the failure. Are they just referring to the personal attendees? What is the TV/online viewership numbers?
Good post, though. Seems like they're only using attendees at this moment. I do not have stats on online viewership (by the way, GomTV is not aired on cable television). There were many articles saying that GSL opening ceremony was a failure, given that they borrowed a stadium with 5000 seats, but only 500 were filled up. And less and less at GomTV studio.
If blizzard discontinued BW, every progammer would speak out. Can you imagine the riots in korea as the country tunes into a live broadcast of Jaedong breaking down on camera as he explains how blizzard destroyed his job?
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On January 07 2011 13:56 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:40 supernovamaniac wrote:On January 07 2011 13:35 0neder wrote: No evidence was given of the failure. Are they just referring to the personal attendees? What is the TV/online viewership numbers?
Good post, though. Seems like they're only using attendees at this moment. I do not have stats on online viewership (by the way, GomTV is not aired on cable television). There were many articles saying that GSL opening ceremony was a failure, given that they borrowed a stadium with 5000 seats, but only 500 were filled up. And less and less at GomTV studio. If blizzard discontinued BW, every progammer would speak out. Can you imagine the riots in korea as the country tunes into a live broadcast of Jaedong breaking down on camera as he explains how blizzard destroyed his job? If Blizzard wins the case and does this, nothing can be done to stop them really. What's a riot going to do, somehow transfer the legal rights to KeSPA? I don't think it'll happen tho, SC2 and BW will co-exist for at least a few years imo.
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On January 07 2011 13:56 puppykiller wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:40 supernovamaniac wrote:On January 07 2011 13:35 0neder wrote: No evidence was given of the failure. Are they just referring to the personal attendees? What is the TV/online viewership numbers?
Good post, though. Seems like they're only using attendees at this moment. I do not have stats on online viewership (by the way, GomTV is not aired on cable television). There were many articles saying that GSL opening ceremony was a failure, given that they borrowed a stadium with 5000 seats, but only 500 were filled up. And less and less at GomTV studio. If blizzard discontinued BW, every progammer would speak out. Can you imagine the riots in korea as the country tunes into a live broadcast of Jaedong breaking down on camera as he explains how blizzard destroyed his job? Doesn't matter to Blizzard if that happens.
Also, the whole Blizzard-KeSPA thing... it is the worst possible situation. There are many other options that will be brought up (possibly) if SC2 dies but BW lives (which probably won't happen).
Don't think that fomos nor I are trying to say that Blizzard WILL sue if SC2 dies.
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The problem is not that blizzard would shut down BW but that if gsl fails then rts will probably go away with it. People will be more hesitant to invest in esports if it means it might disappear overnight. I don't really undestand where these conspiracy theories come from, blizzard has made it pretty clear that they support both games.
RTS has already been declining for the past 5-6 years even in Korea. One only needs to look at a MSL or OSL and compare it to one from 2004 or so. I think if sc2 succeeds then both games will benefit from it but if it fails it will take competitive rts down with it/
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They would hang the threat of Blizzard shutting down BW servers to get Korean fans to make up. Koreans are so factional and judgmental it's sickening. Kinda dumb I have to say these things about my own culture and stuff, but it's true. Fear of punishment is the fastest way to force coexistence, rather than acknowledging that SC2 can produce legitimate leagues if given a chance (and a new map pool) and that both games' leagues are good in their own right because of that factional instinct.
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BW and sc2 has the same theme but are completely different games. Cause cause one game doesn't have a major monopoly on everything as BW has for years doesn't mean things are going bad.
It really disappoints me that SC2 has exploded so much as a spectator sport. That every now and than when patches are few and far between so many people will be off complaining how fucked up something is and trying to start drama that when something happens it explodes.
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Currently people are way to quick to write something off as a failure or a success. Sure the opening ceremony only drew 500 people, however people are quick to forget that 500 people is a pretty sizable amount especially when you factor in how lackluster the match ups were (NesTea, Maka, TheBest and Polt).
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On January 07 2011 13:55 frodoguy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On January 07 2011 13:43 puppykiller wrote: I agree with mega... its like they exscpet the readers to be dumb enough to think bw depends on sc2 just becuase they say it does. Wrong. If SC2 dies but BW lives, what will Blizzard try to do? Just let KeSPA run the tournaments? The end result is not guaranteed in this situation. However, Blizzard will take much more severe action if its league dies. you obviously look down on acti-blizz too much, they would not stoop that low, unless it was well worth the time and money spent, which i doubt. If sc2 dies, they would most likely give up on it, since that would seem to be the most cost effective decision. Fighting with kespa after sc2 dying amounts to nothing except alittle bit of satisfaction over revenge.
Of course it would be worth their money and time. Particularly if blizzard succeds in their current demands in relation to OGN/MBC. They could easily turn to squeeze the last few dollars out of SC:BW by taking big action against its scene. Other blizzard games will still succeed and sell like crazy in korea even is SC as a whole just dies, they have no need to care for these things.
I don't know what to think really, I certainly believe actiblizz will try to get the most out of their games up to the last second, so I really wouldn't find it weird if they decided to act against the BW proscene in case SC2 died, then just leave the brand behind them, tailor the SC2 expansions towards getting most out of initial sales, then focus all their efforts in WoW expansions and the future MMO Titan. Sounds like a plan to me.
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I just can't see BW getting anymore popular than it once was. Where as, SC2 surpass BW in popularity. It's in its early stages so maybe with time it will become a well balanced game.
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SC2 simply hasn't developed enough to deserve something like GSL. I tune into the GSL when I can, but I really don't get excited about any players including foreigners anymore. I think GSL should have waited a year or even for the final expansion to come out because the game has no real star players, gimmicky play is viable, and the map pool is horrible.
BW on the other hand is freaking awesome. I feel like last night's MSL games with JD's drone rush and the Stork vs Bisu match was more entertaining than the 2nd and 3rd GSLs combined.
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I just want Starcrafts of all colors and numbers to live together in perfect harmony.
IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?
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On January 07 2011 14:12 Teogamer wrote: SC2 simply hasn't developed enough to deserve something like GSL. I tune into the GSL when I can, but I really don't get excited about any players including foreigners anymore. I think GSL should have waited a year or even for the final expansion to come out because the game has no real star players, gimmicky play is viable, and the map pool is horrible.
BW on the other hand is freaking awesome. I feel like last night's MSL games with JD's drone rush and the Stork vs Bisu match was more entertaining than the 2nd and 3rd GSLs combined. Where do you think the game evolves most and the professional scene is developed? In large tournament settings. Like Proleague. Or the OSL. Or the MSL.
The BW scene didn't pop up overnight, you know. It started ten years ago.
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Well the article didn't make a sound case as to why BW needs SC2 to succeed. Because Blizzard would spitefully try and shut down all BW servers, really!? I mean even if Blizzard did try to do something that dickish, its not a very good reason to support SC2.
Neither is the argument as to why SC2 needs BW sound. SC2 doesn't need BW to transition new players, it needs current players and viewers to switch over ASAP combined with new talent emerging who weren't in the BW proscene. In fact if BW died tomorrow the SC2 pool of talent would increase one-hundred fold and the viewership would surely follow.
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Just think of SC2 as a retirement home.
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Lets say SC2 dies off in Korea, yet BW lives on and Blizzard decides to just give up on the Korean e-sport scene. Happy ending, right?
Well, with KeSPA's current stance against people who switched over, players like NaDa, BoxeR, MVP, JulyZerg won't be able to switch back to BW due to KeSPA's 3 year license ban against switchers. Hopefully, they will change this rule if they see that SC2 no longer threatens them, but if not, this essentially means that the former stars of BW will be left out in the cold.
People link SC2's success in Korea as an important sign on whether or not it can survive outside of Korea. Assuming that the SC2 scene dies off in Korea, what will happen to the foreign scene? Unlike the Korean scene, the foreign scene has pretty much entirely switched over to SC2. If the foreign scene fails due to a failed Korean scene, then I think no one is going to switch back to BW. Sponsors and tournaments would move on to other games, and we would be left with a dead foreign scene that is but a shell of its former self. Now, this is under the assumption that the foreign scene's success is linked to the Korean scene's success, which could be a completely wrong assumption, but if true, it does not bode well for anyone if the Korean scene fails.
The death of SC2 is not to be celebrated. On one hand, it returns the scene to the status quo. On the other hand, it would become a missed opportunity to expand the scene beyond the status quo to become something greater.
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just curious, how was it a failure, why would I wanna watch that stupid opening ceremonies live, every month? I think the actual games will be more popular
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Estonia4504 Posts
On January 07 2011 14:34 eviltomahawk wrote:
Well, with KeSPA's current stance against people who switched over, players like NaDa, BoxeR, MVP, JulyZerg won't be able to switch back to BW due to KeSPA's 3 year license ban against switchers. Hopefully, they will change this rule if they see that SC2 no longer threatens them, but if not, this essentially means that the former stars of BW will be left out in the cold.
There's different options as well. Former BW pros have become coaches. commentators, managers, so there's somewhere to get back to.
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People need to be honest as to why interest in the GSL is ACTUALLY DECLINING!
The natural assumption was that Starcraft 2 would ramp up in popularity as time went on, but that obviously isn't the case.
I'm too tired to re-iterate why Starcraft 2 is flawed as a spectator sport, but maybe someone else will.
Starcraft 2 is running on hype and novelty. It will soon meet the same hard limitations that broodwar faces as an e-sport -- only worse because it is an inferior game. Allow me to qualify.
Ask any progamer which of the two Starcrafts is more difficult, more balanced, more rewarding of skill, and he will say that it is broodwar.
That is the uncomfortable truth that can't be buried by any amount of hype or direct cash-infusion. If broodwar is to fail in the long run, Starcraft 2 is similar enough (slightly worse in all ways), that it can also be expected to fail.
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United States33097 Posts
I disliked this article because a large part of its argument rests on the general fear mongering of "OMG BLIZZARD MIGHT KILL BW IN SOME MYSTERIOUS WAAAY."
I'm sure some of us would love to believe that so there's a clear villain, but at the very least it's going to be more complicated than that, even if there are malicious intentions.
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Please, stop. Just stop. The game has been out for six months and a bit. All this talk about "Starcraft 2" dying is very premature considering it took a while (like years) for Starcraft 1 to get its legs and make an indelible imprint on Korea as well as its fans around the world.
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Russian Federation410 Posts
Folks, don't over-blow the problem. GLS viewership may decline, simply because the format is different to the usual PL+MSL+OSL people are used to. The game itself is way too fresh to be BW-balanced, a lot of GSL games come down to BO wins, which is uninteresting for a viewer.
Let the game get balanced, let GOM introduce all their leagues, get the audience to know/understand their format better and you'll see it become more popular than ever. (As it happened with GOM Classic, only by the third season it started beating OSL/MSL in ratings).
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On January 07 2011 13:47 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:43 puppykiller wrote: I agree with mega... its like they exscpet the readers to be dumb enough to think bw depends on sc2 just becuase they say it does. Wrong. If SC2 dies but BW lives, what will Blizzard try to do? Just let KeSPA run the tournaments? The end result is not guaranteed in this situation. However, Blizzard will take much more severe action if its league dies. For starters, Blizzard (Gretech) is already suing KeSPA, OGN, and MBC for copyright violations. I suppose it's possible that they could do more than that, but it's not as if Blizzard is currently being benevolent towards the professional BW scene.
Another point that's worth some consideration is that Blizzard still has two expansion packs that it wants to release. If the SC2 competitive scene flounders sometime in the next year, pulling a huge "fuck you" revenge move would greatly damage their expansion pack sales in Korea. Some of that ill will might spill over and hurt their WoW subscription numbers, as well (though that's more speculative).
At any rate, if at some point in the future Starcraft 2 is already dead in Korea, Blizzard has almost nothing to gain at that point by taking extra measures to kill BW, and they would probably damage the reputation of the company as well as future game sales in Korea. Bobby Kotick would have a fit!
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On January 07 2011 14:43 Consolidate wrote: People need to be honest as to why interest in the GSL is ACTUALLY DECLINING!
The natural assumption was that Starcraft 2 would ramp up in popularity as time went on, but that obviously isn't the case.
I'm too tired to re-iterate why Starcraft 2 is flawed as a spectator sport, but maybe someone else will.
Starcraft 2 is running on hype and novelty. It will soon meet the same hard limitations that broodwar faces as an e-sport -- only worse because it is an inferior game. Allow me to qualify.
Ask any progamer which of the two Starcrafts is more difficult, more balanced, more rewarding of skill, and he will say that it is broodwar.
That is the uncomfortable truth that can't be buried by any amount of hype or direct cash-infusion. If broodwar is to fail in the long run, Starcraft 2 is similar enough (slightly worse in all ways), that it can also be expected to fail.
Please make an honest assessment when you compare a 10 year old, completed, well established game, to a 6 month old, incomplete game with two expansions planned in the future. It is too early to determine any of your false assumptions with any semblance of accuracy.
There is one way that Blizzard can change which is currently crippling the potential future of Starcraft 2; Blizzard needs to turn over map making to an outside league (i.e. ICCUP). The stagnant map pool is hurting Starcraft 2 more than anything else at the moment.
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On January 07 2011 14:43 Consolidate wrote: People need to be honest as to why interest in the GSL is ACTUALLY DECLINING! Do you have viewership numbers for GSL 1-4? Have they gone up or down? I think they've gone up. Just curious...
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the only reasoning i saw for BW needing SC2 to survive is that Blizzard would shut down gateways or prosecute in some way. In other words, this article states the sole reason for BW needing SC2 is fear of blizzard.
MOtivation by fear rarely works imo
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On January 07 2011 14:43 Consolidate wrote: People need to be honest as to why interest in the GSL is ACTUALLY DECLINING!
The natural assumption was that Starcraft 2 would ramp up in popularity as time went on, but that obviously isn't the case.
I'm too tired to re-iterate why Starcraft 2 is flawed as a spectator sport, but maybe someone else will.
Starcraft 2 is running on hype and novelty. It will soon meet the same hard limitations that broodwar faces as an e-sport -- only worse because it is an inferior game. Allow me to qualify.
Ask any progamer which of the two Starcrafts is more difficult, more balanced, more rewarding of skill, and he will say that it is broodwar.
That is the uncomfortable truth that can't be buried by any amount of hype or direct cash-infusion. If broodwar is to fail in the long run, Starcraft 2 is similar enough (slightly worse in all ways), that it can also be expected to fail. I read what you posted in the GSL Popularity thread. You are making all of your claims under the assumption that nothing will change. Thing is, there are two expansion packs already lined up, not to mention the patches that will accompany them.
I think the only tweak the SC2 engine needs is for moving units to not push idle units out of the way, and the more pressing issue is the stagnating map pool.
Besides the game itself (which WILL see changes), it all comes down to the players and sponsors.
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Yeah I'm pretty sure Fomos is pro-Blizz
And the entire post from them seems to say BW fans must wish for SC2 to succeed also else Blizzard will mysteriously pull the plug for BW or something? That's quite a weak statement, you can't get people to like SC2 that way. Kinda like saying subscribe to WoW now else they'll shut down WC3 B.Net so you can't play DOTA or something...
It is up to Blizzard to fix their mistakes and get off their high horse and realize that they need to step up their game some, put some of that classic Blizzard quality back into their games and the way they treat their player base.
I don't think anybody wanted SC2 to fail till Blizzard toyed around with the existing BW scene. That is their fatal mistake. If this escalates we're going to see some drama in the Korean e-Sports community this year.
Either way, thanks for translating~
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On January 07 2011 14:15 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 14:12 Teogamer wrote: SC2 simply hasn't developed enough to deserve something like GSL. I tune into the GSL when I can, but I really don't get excited about any players including foreigners anymore. I think GSL should have waited a year or even for the final expansion to come out because the game has no real star players, gimmicky play is viable, and the map pool is horrible.
BW on the other hand is freaking awesome. I feel like last night's MSL games with JD's drone rush and the Stork vs Bisu match was more entertaining than the 2nd and 3rd GSLs combined. Where do you think the game evolves most and the professional scene is developed? In large tournament settings. Like Proleague. Or the OSL. Or the MSL. The BW scene didn't pop up overnight, you know. It started ten years ago. So did the Starcraft 2 scene, which is blatantly an offshoot of the BW scene.
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Bobby Kotick and the other actiblizzard heads (i.e the guys making all the decisions) are not going to kill bw out of vengeance. They're businessmen, not sc2 fanboys.
if sc2 fails, they will be even more interested in making money $$ off of bw sales
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On January 07 2011 15:20 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 14:15 LunarC wrote:On January 07 2011 14:12 Teogamer wrote: SC2 simply hasn't developed enough to deserve something like GSL. I tune into the GSL when I can, but I really don't get excited about any players including foreigners anymore. I think GSL should have waited a year or even for the final expansion to come out because the game has no real star players, gimmicky play is viable, and the map pool is horrible.
BW on the other hand is freaking awesome. I feel like last night's MSL games with JD's drone rush and the Stork vs Bisu match was more entertaining than the 2nd and 3rd GSLs combined. Where do you think the game evolves most and the professional scene is developed? In large tournament settings. Like Proleague. Or the OSL. Or the MSL. The BW scene didn't pop up overnight, you know. It started ten years ago. So did the Starcraft 2 scene, which is blatantly an offshoot of the BW scene. True, SC2 has a head start. But where would the competitive scene be without the GSL? Nearly nonexistent, in my opinion. And last time I checked, something must exist for it to develop.
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This forum is so similiar to the fomos one where it is BW vs SC2 all over again. Just like football vs Soccer, Softball vs Baseball, Pokemon Red vs Pokemon Blue, etc
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I liked this article. A nice appeal to the communities to not be so negative toward each other and biased toward either game. I'd love to see sc1 and sc2 run side by side. Here's to hoping it happens.
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People always hate new things, just like there will always be people who hate a good sequel to a movie just because the original came first.
The SC2 scene is not dying, the GSL is very popular, especially amongst the non-Korean crowd. I think people should stop letting nostalgia cloud their view.
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I may be wrong on my views here, but Starcraft 2 is still pretty new, THE GSL is still very very popular and E-sports along with Starcraft 2 is growing.
As for people not showing up live in Korea, if im not mistaken has it not been SO COLD there that people just dont really want to have to travel the distance to the gsl in that kind of weather when they can just watch it from home?
These are just my thoughts, I also believe over time Starcraft 2 will grow and BW will remain completely fine.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
SC2 and BW can co-exist.....
The current GSL issue is more GOM fail than SC2 fail if you ask me(I can't say much right now since i'm in school)
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The game is under a year old... There are 2 expansions coming, there are years of development still ahead of sc2... and people are asking if it's dead? get real.
I just hope in those years of development they learn to make bigger 1v1 maps.
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I don't want either SC2 or BW to fail, or to decline. 
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Between this translation, the map pool thread and the shitstorm i started in the gsl thread i seriously hope the games tonight are good
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As a player I love SC2. I find that it plays at a level that I find that it is pretty competitive and fun for me. I still wish micro and macro was a lot harder (especially macro) to allow more personal style. However, as a dedicated viewer of e-sports SC2 is a disaster. When I watch the pros I find myself completely uninspired. I enjoy watching a game every now and then but it's not like BW where I know I could never reach the level of play of the pros. Whenever I watch professional micro, I can just mimic it after several games of practice. On the other hand I don't know how many hundreds of BW games I have played where I specifically tried to mimic professional shuttle/reaver play but cannot do it to this day. It's the awe and unobtainable factor that keeps me going back to Broodwar and prevents me from following SC2. I hope for HoTS, Blizzard makes subtle macro changes such as increase the amount of patches to make mineral intake harder to handle, or increase the amount each mineral and gas canister provides.
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Rofl so now after all that hype about sc2 replacing BW they suddenly change thier tune ( don't pretend this never happened even Artosis is guilty of this).
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On January 07 2011 15:32 Subversive wrote: I liked this article. A nice appeal to the communities to not be so negative toward each other and biased toward either game. I'd love to see sc1 and sc2 run side by side. Here's to hoping it happens. THANK YOU for actually understanding the meaning of the whole post.
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On January 07 2011 16:01 BearStorm wrote: As a player I love SC2. I find that it plays at a level that I find that it is pretty competitive and fun for me. I still wish micro and macro was a lot harder (especially macro) to allow more personal style. However, as a dedicated viewer of e-sports SC2 is a disaster. When I watch the pros I find myself completely uninspired. I enjoy watching a game every now and then but it's not like BW where I know I could never reach the level of play of the pros. Whenever I watch professional micro, I can just mimic it after several games of practice. On the other hand I don't know how many hundreds of BW games I have played where I specifically tried to mimic professional shuttle/reaver play but cannot do it to this day. It's the awe and unobtainable factor that keeps me going back to Broodwar and prevents me from following SC2. I hope for HoTS, Blizzard makes subtle macro changes such as increase the amount of patches to make mineral intake harder to handle, or increase the amount each mineral and gas canister provides.
Starcraft 2 isnt even a year old yet... How do you expect these people to play like the BW players who have played for 10+ years? Everyone is still learning the game.
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On January 07 2011 13:39 blahman3344 wrote:Show nested quote +However, this is the wrong idea. In order for BW to live, SC2 needs to succeed, and in order for SC2 to succeed, BW needs to keep its popularity. If we follow some extreme fans who are yelling "one needs to die for other to survive", then we might end up killing both games at once. People need to understand that this is the worst possible situation at the moment. I agree with some parts of this paragraph. I really don't like it when people jump on bandwagons and say "Let X game die so Y game can live!" It seems like a very irrational approach to things. If things can be done so that both survive (and I'm pretty sure there are plenty of things that can be done), then I say go for it. Thank you for the translation, SNM =)
Exactly, while I don't think that BW needs SC2 or viceversa I do think that this whole thing of "Us vs Them" and "One must die for the Other to live" is extremely irrational and it may even end up hurting both of the games in the long run.
I do think that both leagues can co exist but first we need to see SC2 as its own game, not as the successor of BW(e sports wise). That is the reason when I sometimes cringe when people demand for SC2 to be BW 1.0001 HD edition.
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"If sc2 fails" is a phrase being bandied around far too often. Both games have/are succeeding hugely, and both see more high level competitions than any other esports currently in existence. (CS has died off alot in the last 1-2 years).
What Utinni said above is the most accurate, there is ALOT more time ahead for the game. I cannot put to words how much this game will change and evolve in the years to come through meta game changes and expansion packs etc.
"If X fails" is a terrible way to put things and it promotes nothing but nay-saying.
Oh and NaDa vs BoxeR 2 seasons ago attracted over 1.5m views as far as I remember? I don't see why everything is being exaggerated at the minute
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On January 07 2011 15:21 iamho wrote: Bobby Kotick and the other actiblizzard heads (i.e the guys making all the decisions) are not going to kill bw out of vengeance. They're businessmen, not sc2 fanboys.
if sc2 fails, they will be even more interested in making money $$ off of bw sales
And also this, I wonder why people always think of companies as persons. IIRC BW still sells pretty well. ActiBlizzard would just be stupid to ragequit like a child.
Also I am pretty sure that for all they care SC2 has been a pretty huge success, it sold a lot and honestly while the e sports money may be tempting they are smart businessmen, they won't do stupid decisions just to make sure that SC2 is THE competitive game.
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gsl is a failure because its almost like they don't want me to see it. lets get the unavoidable and obvious out of the way, its on at an inconvenient time. next they dont release replays, the free teaser videos are 50 minutes of bs and hype and a 10 minute game, and lets be honest most of them are pretty textbook but it is a young game.
anyways its difficult to find restreams and if you ever do they are generally of low quality. me and my bro bought a season ticket for the last one, a great investment in e-sports! we thought. we no longer have access to the videos and they want more money for us to keep watching and straight up most of the matches were uninspiring. if blizzard wants this game to thrive they need to release the freaking chokehold they have on it and believe me nobody wants it to thrive more than me. if you let this game get popular, it will translate into more sales.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On January 07 2011 13:48 udgnim wrote: The opening GSL ceremonies is more a really bad decision than a failure.
MBC or OGN could try to have some type of opening ceremony for MSL/OSL and I don't think it could draw 500+ people.
people care about finals or games between big names. they care much less for a ceremony to announce the people who have qualified for the tournament. I agree, I think they should scale back on several things until the game is more mature.
- No gigantic opening ceremony! - Make Ro8 bo3 and semis Bo5, its just too many games when there are still so many mismatches. Also, map imbalance becomes an issue when you have to play 7 games, and they dont have their own map pool.
Would be my first two changes I guess. Maybe slow down the pace a little too, having a game a day is a lot when there arent really many big names yet.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On January 07 2011 16:31 Liquid`Jinro wrote: - Make Ro8 bo3 and semis Bo5, its just too many games when there are still so many mismatches.
The logic behind longer series is that, supposedly, the better player (or team, in team sports) will emerge victorious over the long run over an inferior player. However because the game hasn't been figured out yet and everyone is still experimenting (and sometimes relying on cheesy builds or all-ins), we still don't know who the better players really are. The discrepancy in results for individual players shows that everything is still evolving too rapidly to know what's standard. So many "upsets", so many weird results.
So yeah: there are way too many games, and these games don't really ensure that the better players advance.
Edit: omg I just quoted Jinro <3
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On January 07 2011 13:30 supernovamaniac wrote: and/or watching SC2 progamers succeeding in BW leagues.
I lol'd so hard.
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On January 07 2011 16:31 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:48 udgnim wrote: The opening GSL ceremonies is more a really bad decision than a failure.
MBC or OGN could try to have some type of opening ceremony for MSL/OSL and I don't think it could draw 500+ people.
people care about finals or games between big names. they care much less for a ceremony to announce the people who have qualified for the tournament. I agree, I think they should scale back on several things until the game is more mature. - No gigantic opening ceremony! - Make Ro8 bo3 and semis Bo5, its just too many games when there are still so many mismatches. Also, map imbalance becomes an issue when you have to play 7 games, and they dont have their own map pool. Would be my first two changes I guess. Maybe slow down the pace a little too, having a game a day is a lot when there arent really many big names yet.
To avoid map imbalance they could have players remove all but 3 maps and play the first 3 games on those maps and the rest by loser's pick or something. You'll end up with 3 balanced and interesting maps, aka LT (or scrap if there's a zerg), metal, and shakuras. It's clear that the other maps are "map filler" designed to increase variety at the expense of quality of gameplay. People would rather watch 20 good games on shakuras than 5 good games on shakuras and 5 bad games on steppes, basin, and sands - at least I would hope.
Why did I not notice your name changed from FA to Jinro? How long ago was that -_-
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On January 07 2011 13:37 Megaliskuu wrote: Lol fomos is so pro-sc2, BW doesn't need sc2, if sc2 died BW would just go on as normal. Although I for one would like to see both leagues do well (kinda).
Normally declining!
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On January 07 2011 16:06 Kamikiri wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 16:01 BearStorm wrote: As a player I love SC2. I find that it plays at a level that I find that it is pretty competitive and fun for me. I still wish micro and macro was a lot harder (especially macro) to allow more personal style. However, as a dedicated viewer of e-sports SC2 is a disaster. When I watch the pros I find myself completely uninspired. I enjoy watching a game every now and then but it's not like BW where I know I could never reach the level of play of the pros. Whenever I watch professional micro, I can just mimic it after several games of practice. On the other hand I don't know how many hundreds of BW games I have played where I specifically tried to mimic professional shuttle/reaver play but cannot do it to this day. It's the awe and unobtainable factor that keeps me going back to Broodwar and prevents me from following SC2. I hope for HoTS, Blizzard makes subtle macro changes such as increase the amount of patches to make mineral intake harder to handle, or increase the amount each mineral and gas canister provides. Starcraft 2 isnt even a year old yet... How do you expect these people to play like the BW players who have played for 10+ years? Everyone is still learning the game.
I don't think anybody expects SC2 players to play like BW players. I'm just stating why I don't follow SC2. Even when I go back and watch the early stages of BW I am still amazed by the control professionals have over their units. Also you may be right about people learning the game, but that still doesn't not change how easy macro is in SC2. I have found that it is not very hard to keep your money low in this game even at my level, but if you watch professional BW, even the pros can't keep their money down. This allows for more styles. For example look at BeSt. He's notorious for never microing, but that's because he concentrates so hard in his macro which is why he always seems to have more units than his opponent. This gives more personality to the players, where as SC2 is only a few months old and pro SC2 players can already have such amazing macro.
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If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash?
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I think both scenes can coexist in Korea and its only a matter of time before we see both SC2 and BW on OGN/MBC. BW is still strong in Korea and SC2 already dominates the foreign scene. SC2 is in the top 10 of the most voted for WCG 2011 and the WCG staff is having a real tough time deciding whether or not to include BW as well. Does WCG air on Korean TV?
What I dont get though is why people are even talking about GSL being a failure. The GSL 3 finals stadium was full. 1800~ fans came and the stadium could only hold 2000. The opening day for this season was pretty lame compared to the opening day of the GSLs last year (wtf no kpop groups?!!?1), not to mention it was on January 2nd. Not only is it fucking cold in Korea but people were on their New Years break man. Overall it was really bad timing and not really worth a stadium. It was nothing super special, 4 players in a group stage like the normal days today and a really long intro of the 32 Code S players. (seriously no kpop so lame)
I dislike that the article goes on to say the two need each other because of Blizzard. Don't wanna get too much into that because what I also dislike is when fans of one side can't just stfu and play nice with fans of the other. It's a shame people even have to pick sides, I fucking love both. Starcraft is Starcraft and whether it's the MSL finals between Jaedong and Bisu (sorry Flash) or the legendary Boxer vs Nada at the GSL, I'm in for a good time.
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On January 07 2011 17:00 xBillehx wrote:I think both scenes can coexist in Korea and its only a matter of time before we see both SC2 and BW on OGN/MBC. BW is still strong in Korea and SC2 already dominates the foreign scene. SC2 is in the top 10 of the most voted for WCG 2011 and the WCG staff is having a real tough time deciding whether or not to include BW as well. Does WCG air on Korean TV?
The main sponsor of WCG is Samsung, any other sponsors are minor at best. Samsung is a Korean company. Samsung owns a BW team.
It would be extremely unlikely for WCG to drop BW... especially considering it is one of the longest standing and proven games along with CS1.6. I wouldn't be surprised if SC2 is available as well though. I would think WC3 would be dropped well before BW.
WCG airs on OGN in Korea I think.. it may also be on MBC Game but I'm not sure. It's definitely on OGN.
Also in Korea they don't consider our "new year" as important as the lunar new year (Feb 3rd this year) so I'm not sure if people even have holidays for it.
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On January 07 2011 16:06 Kamikiri wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 16:01 BearStorm wrote: As a player I love SC2. I find that it plays at a level that I find that it is pretty competitive and fun for me. I still wish micro and macro was a lot harder (especially macro) to allow more personal style. However, as a dedicated viewer of e-sports SC2 is a disaster. When I watch the pros I find myself completely uninspired. I enjoy watching a game every now and then but it's not like BW where I know I could never reach the level of play of the pros. Whenever I watch professional micro, I can just mimic it after several games of practice. On the other hand I don't know how many hundreds of BW games I have played where I specifically tried to mimic professional shuttle/reaver play but cannot do it to this day. It's the awe and unobtainable factor that keeps me going back to Broodwar and prevents me from following SC2. I hope for HoTS, Blizzard makes subtle macro changes such as increase the amount of patches to make mineral intake harder to handle, or increase the amount each mineral and gas canister provides. Starcraft 2 isnt even a year old yet... How do you expect these people to play like the BW players who have played for 10+ years? Everyone is still learning the game. Practice methodology is not new for SC2. In early days of SC1 it was,you had people with ~100 apm in pro level gaming, but practice methodology has evolved to the current level(aka u gotta practice 12 hours a day to maintain pro level) which would make sense for sc2 players to already be damn good(theyve had about a year, ~4000 gameplay hours to practice their asses off now)
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On January 07 2011 16:57 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:37 Megaliskuu wrote: Lol fomos is so pro-sc2, BW doesn't need sc2, if sc2 died BW would just go on as normal. Although I for one would like to see both leagues do well (kinda). Normally declining! Source ? It clearly declined after 2005, but it seems that it has stabilized since...
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I really wish people would stop with the "let ICCUP make the maps". Every time i hear a pro talk about ICCUP maps for sc2 they trash them, especially on SotG. ICCUP maps were great in BW but they are still making the same maps just for a new game.... that doesn't work alot of the time, especially in a game that is so young.
Yes the maps need to change a bit more often and they could be more balanced and bigger, but i would rather blizz employed people to make maps in Blizzards name so that they can help balance the game to the maps and vice versa rather than let an outside company make maps that then force them to rebalance the game based on outsourced maps.
back to the topic:
If you simply look at gomtv.net video section you can see that most of the games have over 20k and many have upwards of 70k views, and the bigger names have way higher than that. Code S group A has over 100k views. Those viewers are all from foreign sources, i wonder how the humbers would look if you factored in the korean views too. Dying? I think not. Failing? I think not
If you look at viewers for ro8 onwards in season 3 they all have over 100k views.
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Nobody understands the format of the GSL, I'm not surprised at all. Also, a lot of people were attracted because Nada/Boxer/July switched and the prizes were huge. Then after a while, they just realized watching SC2 was not that good, especially on the same ridiculously small maps.
I think that SC2's gameplay will improve with time, games will become more interesting to watch and SC2's popularity will grow accordingly.
At the meantime, Stork has never drawn such fan crowds before. Maybe it's due to the fact that both Flash and JD are out of the OSL. That brings some refreshing final rounds... At the end of his game against Hiya the audience was shouting SONG BYUNG GOO, SONG BYUNG GOO, that was scary !
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On January 07 2011 18:23 endy wrote: Nobody understands the format of the GSL, I'm not surprised at all. Also, a lot of people were attracted because Nada/Boxer/July switched and the prizes were huge. Then after a while, they just realized watching SC2 was not that good.
I think that SC2's gameplay will improve with time, games will become more interesting to watch and SC2's popularity will grow accordingly.
At the meantime, Stork has never drawn such fan crowds before. Maybe it's due to the fact that both Flash and JD are out of the OSL. That brings some refreshing final rounds... At the end of his game against Hiya the audience was shouting SONG BYUNG GOO, SONG BYUNG GOO, that was scary !
Yeah I am a Hiya fan but Stock is playing like an absolute beast at the moment. Have to give him credit when it's due. It's great to see him drawing in the crowds too.
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Blizzard should really consider integrating the GSL into b.net 2.0 so that average and new players get a look immediately at what the highest level is like and that there are actually a huge following in Korea. That I think, will help the growth of GSL exponentially.
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On January 07 2011 14:02 LunarC wrote: They would hang the threat of Blizzard shutting down BW servers to get Korean fans to make up. Koreans are so factional and judgmental it's sickening. Kinda dumb I have to say these things about my own culture and stuff, but it's true. Fear of punishment is the fastest way to force coexistence, rather than acknowledging that SC2 can produce legitimate leagues if given a chance (and a new map pool) and that both games' leagues are good in their own right because of that factional instinct.
thats whats great about sc1, even if the servers are shut down the game has LAN support
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If StarCraft 2 dies, it's still only GOM and only in Korea. All the attention will turn to MLG and IEM and such who are actually building the sport the right way it seems.
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On January 07 2011 16:59 Refreshe wrote:If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics  . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash?
Honestly if blizz had just made another expansion to SC1 and called it SC2 it woulda been a bigger success than the current SC2.
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On January 07 2011 14:55 Go0g3n wrote: As it happened with GOM Classic, only by the third season it started beating OSL/MSL in ratings.
Do you have actual numbers to back up your claims?
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On January 07 2011 16:04 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 15:32 Subversive wrote: I liked this article. A nice appeal to the communities to not be so negative toward each other and biased toward either game. I'd love to see sc1 and sc2 run side by side. Here's to hoping it happens. THANK YOU for actually understanding the meaning of the whole post. Thank you in turn for the translation .
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it took many years for bw to become popular on a national level in korea. Of course the transition to sc2 will be bumpy, as people are always prone to fear/hate change. Sc 2 not being as crisp and as balanced as BW (not to mention, also lacking crowd pleasing techniques), its clear that it will take time for korea to switch over. However, we must not forget that sc2 is way more balanced at this current state compared to bw. I have faith that in time (and don't forget two more expansions coming) blizzard will polish this game and it will be equal or even greater than its predecessor.
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I can't believe people are actually saying things like "if sc2 fails..." I'm assuming people are saying that in the esports way because the game itself isn't going to fail. It is already a huge success, when was the last blizzard game that "failed" anyway? Keep in mind SC took off in popularity even more after the BW expansion...I have no doubt that when this game is complete it will be very similar.
People have to realize is that the next generation gamer, the kid currently in high school or middle school that is playing SC2 and it's future expansions will continue to drive the game. Not the 20+ year old that is nostalgic about BW. Those kids never played BW and when they see it they probably think "the mechanics are weird and the graphics suck." People also way overestimate the value of eSports to Blizzard/SC2 community. I'd say out of the 10 people I know who I play SC2 with consistently, only 3 of them follow the "pro" scene in anyway. The other 7 don't even know what GSL is and could care less.
What koreans choose to like or dislike is one thing, but Blizzard has already stated that although the Korean market is nice, it isn't as significant as people would think. So even if SC2 doesn't take off in the end as a esport in Korea, I don't think it is going anywhere around the world so maybe it will flourish as an esport in the US and Europe. Korea can have their BW... the rest of us can move forward instead of living in the past. Keep in mind SC was a great game before their was any Korean eSport scene, and SC2 can be fine as well without it.
Just way to much talking in absolutes in this thread... in time it will work out but SC2 is going to be around for a long long time, even if it isn't a massive Korean eSport. BW can also continue to exist and do fine, but I see it like Major League Baseball, the core of it's fans are older and will continue to get older, they won't be adding in new younger fans at this point.
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Uhm, smaller live audience than expected for GSL hardly means that SC2 will fail lol.
But blizzard will ruin SC2 if they don't implement some decent maps. Only Shakuras is good atm.
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I wish people would stop arguing about whether one or the other is going to die. It makes me extremely anxious. My main interest in Starcraft is due to watching the Averatec Intel Classic on GOM like almost 2 years ago and although I did play Brood War every now and then before and after that, both the amazement and shock created by seeing the quality of players made me realise that although BW is awesome for a lot of people to play/watch, I am way too far behind in terms of skill if I want to be competitive in that game. I had the same issue with QuakeLive duelling, I got to this level where there was in a rift between the guys who had always played and the guys that got their asses beaten over and over by those experienced players and there was just no possible way of me bridging that gap. I am a super competitive person when it comes to gaming and I take great satisfaction in any time I crush an opponent, SC2 for me is a new window of opportunity for people who were late to the BW party to show off that they can be good at Starcraft (or RTS in general) too. I have no desire of going on iCCup and getting smashed in E/D rank over and over again or possibly investing more time and only becoming mediocre at best because the experienced guys are still way too far ahead after 10+ years of playing the game.
I am about to invest about $1k on a computer in another country because I want to finally have a game that I can play seriously and competitively and see how far I can go (I might not even be able to play that much, or not as much as I would like, that is inevitably how the world often works). I will be returning home in about 9 months and I might not ever get to use that pc again but that is how serious I am about wanting to play this game (my girlfriend lives here but depending on visa situations who knows whether I can come back for an extended period of time). It would make me really sad for SC2 to die in terms of player base, tournaments and community. I don't want it to kill BW, BW and their ridiculously amazingly skilled players and great community are really what captured my interest in the Starcraft scene to begin with so it's only fair that it maintains a level of importance but I think SC2 also deserves a go and will hopefully gain more popularity for that new generation of gamers that want a fresh start with a new game that I think a lot of people can and will enjoy.
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BW will live if SC2 dies... in Korea... I kind of think that the Pro SC2 scene should die, until the game is polished a bit more.
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Just have a look at tl.net. A year ago this site was about broodwar, and now...
Personally I would like to see sc2 fail because it really serves blizzard/activision right after the way they handled this situation.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
On January 07 2011 23:36 hifriend wrote: Just have a look at tl.net. A year ago this site was about broodwar, and now...
Personally I would like to see sc2 fail because it really serves blizzard/activision right after the way they handled this situation.
hohoho a game must fail because the makers are being retarded....The makers present the game,The game does not represent the makers.
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Given the low quality of play and extremely short games, its not surprising its attracting less viewers.
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SC2 shouldnt be forced to succeed, it should come naturually just like BW did. But clearly it has problems doing that so GL!
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United States22883 Posts
On January 07 2011 23:36 hifriend wrote: Just have a look at tl.net. A year ago this site was about broodwar, and now...
Personally I would like to see sc2 fail because it really serves blizzard/activision right after the way they handled this situation. This view is incredibly stupid. Why would you want a game that millions of people enjoy to fail just because of an ancillary event? Especially one that actually takes foreigners into account (unlike BW.)
To everyone in this thread, let's not forget BW's television ratings have been dropping since 2007. It's not like BW has an unlimited lifespan, with or without SC2. Plus the BW stadiums are in shopping malls and high traffic areas, not random gymnasiums. It's GOM's mistake for selecting these venues, but comparing attendance is totally irrelevant. By the same method, you could say BW has been in massive decline since SKT's Proleague victory.
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On January 07 2011 13:37 Megaliskuu wrote: Lol fomos is so pro-sc2, BW doesn't need sc2, if sc2 died BW would just go on as normal. Although I for one would like to see both leagues do well (kinda).
I think you're being extremely short sighted. If SC2 fails in Korea, Blizzard will never forgive KeSPA, and sue them to the ground, ensuring that not even one game of professional SC is ever broadcasted by them. In fact, Blizzard could have already done this by filing an injunction preventing them from broadcasting any SC matches till the IP issues case is resolved in court. However they chose not to do so, perhaps to earn goodwill of the fans.
Be careful what you wish for
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On January 07 2011 23:25 FLuE wrote: I can't believe people are actually saying things like "if sc2 fails..." I'm assuming people are saying that in the esports way because the game itself isn't going to fail. It is already a huge success, when was the last blizzard game that "failed" anyway? Keep in mind SC took off in popularity even more after the BW expansion...I have no doubt that when this game is complete it will be very similar.
People have to realize is that the next generation gamer, the kid currently in high school or middle school that is playing SC2 and it's future expansions will continue to drive the game. Not the 20+ year old that is nostalgic about BW. Those kids never played BW and when they see it they probably think "the mechanics are weird and the graphics suck." People also way overestimate the value of eSports to Blizzard/SC2 community. I'd say out of the 10 people I know who I play SC2 with consistently, only 3 of them follow the "pro" scene in anyway. The other 7 don't even know what GSL is and could care less. This I'd agree with. SC2 won't fail by any means but the situation is looking a lot like WC3. Actually what's happening is identical to WC3.
On January 07 2011 23:50 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 23:36 hifriend wrote: Just have a look at tl.net. A year ago this site was about broodwar, and now...
Personally I would like to see sc2 fail because it really serves blizzard/activision right after the way they handled this situation. This view is incredibly stupid. Why would you want a game that millions of people enjoy to fail just because of an ancillary event? Especially one that actually takes foreigners into account (unlike BW.) To everyone in this thread, let's not forget BW's television ratings have been dropping since 2007. It's not like BW has an unlimited lifespan, with or without SC2. Well hopefully they will learn some kind of lesson. What BW has with kespa is the result of a decade of dedicated and passionate people working together to make the dream of people earning their living playing video games a reality. It's infinitely more solid than gretech/blizzard's little experiment will ever be and it's being torn down just so that blizzard can expand their market share somewhat. As a result a lot of people are going to be losing their jobs and the best era of e-sports in history will crumble away prematurely. It just sucks.
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On January 07 2011 23:36 GoldenH wrote: BW will live if SC2 dies... in Korea Basically. BW will live on in Korea because it's so firmly entrenched there, but if SC2 dies everywhere other than Korea BW dies too.
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[QUOTE]On January 07 2011 23:52 bonifaceviii wrote: [QUOTE]On January 07 2011 23:36 GoldenH wrote: BW will live if SC2 dies... in Korea[QUOTE] Basically. BW will live on in Korea because it's so firmly entrenched there, but if SC2 dies everywhere other than Korea BW dies too.[/QUOTE]
BW will live because gamewise, challengewise and spectatorwise its superiour. Anyone that has played BW for atleast the same amount of time theyve spent on SC2 that disagrees with me?
Also, i remember it being a hell more fun to play
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So basically BW needs SC2 because if it fails Blizzard will shut us down out of spite. And SC2 needs BW because that's where the talent pool and public interest it...
I'm not liking this seesaw at all =S
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On January 07 2011 19:25 Essentia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 16:59 Refreshe wrote:If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics  . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash? Honestly if blizz had just made another expansion to SC1 and called it SC2 it woulda been a bigger success than the current SC2.
Not at all, only SC1 players would play it. SC2 has a shitton more players than SC1 right now, its only less popular in terms of tournaments and fame in korea. I know you're gonna say "yeah but all these new players are shits and WoW-newbs anyways we don't need them", well guess what, the world doesn't need your retardation either.
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sc2 will not be the e-sport BW was. it is going to die out in 1 or 2 years, if not sooner
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On January 07 2011 16:31 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:48 udgnim wrote: The opening GSL ceremonies is more a really bad decision than a failure.
MBC or OGN could try to have some type of opening ceremony for MSL/OSL and I don't think it could draw 500+ people.
people care about finals or games between big names. they care much less for a ceremony to announce the people who have qualified for the tournament. I agree, I think they should scale back on several things until the game is more mature. - No gigantic opening ceremony! - Make Ro8 bo3 and semis Bo5, its just too many games when there are still so many mismatches. Also, map imbalance becomes an issue when you have to play 7 games, and they dont have their own map pool. Would be my first two changes I guess. Maybe slow down the pace a little too, having a game a day is a lot when there arent really many big names yet.
This right here.
If they would have scaled everything down including the matches, then they would most likely have called the Opening Ceremonies a complete success.
I don't know how they could project such a radical growth in such a short perioid of time. Again as stated above, SC2 is young, let it grow.
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or maybe its just because noone understands code S or code A or any of this dumb system they have going now. i know that at least for me it is WAY less fun to watch when its not in the bracket setup. all these players only play one game against eachother in the round of 32 in group, instead of in heated bo3s. so boring. i just skipped watchng a couple of the groups cause its just not fun to watch, and i bought the vod package.
this system they have now may, make sense tournament wise, but i wouldnt know cause i dont feel like taking an hour to try to understand it. i just want the standard tourney back.
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On January 08 2011 00:00 Faze. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 19:25 Essentia wrote:On January 07 2011 16:59 Refreshe wrote:If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics  . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash? Honestly if blizz had just made another expansion to SC1 and called it SC2 it woulda been a bigger success than the current SC2. Not at all, only SC1 players would play it. SC2 has a shitton more players than SC1 right now, its only less popular in terms of tournaments and fame in korea. I know you're gonna say "yeah but all these new players are shits and WoW-newbs anyways we don't need them", well guess what, the world doesn't need your retardation either. I think that many of the SC2 players witht he mindset of "ooohh so pretty 3d graphixxx" would also play BW HD.
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I consider it pretty unlikely that Blizzard would shut down BW servers. Despite what some ardent BW fans here may think due to the lawsuits, Blizzard is still a very strong brand in Korea and they've other titles to sell. With D3 and new MMORPG around the corner, it would make little sense for them to garner ill-will just to save a few bucks (maintaining the servers is probably very cheap).
Of course, they won't keep maintaining them forever and the reality is BW will eventually die, but hopefully not anytime soon.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 08 2011 00:03 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 00:00 Faze. wrote:On January 07 2011 19:25 Essentia wrote:On January 07 2011 16:59 Refreshe wrote:If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics  . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash? Honestly if blizz had just made another expansion to SC1 and called it SC2 it woulda been a bigger success than the current SC2. Not at all, only SC1 players would play it. SC2 has a shitton more players than SC1 right now, its only less popular in terms of tournaments and fame in korea. I know you're gonna say "yeah but all these new players are shits and WoW-newbs anyways we don't need them", well guess what, the world doesn't need your retardation either. I think that many of the SC2 players witht he mindset of "ooohh so pretty 3d graphixxx" would also play BW HD. Let's stop the ignorant BW vs. SC2 discussions right here.
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So, how many times do we need to tell them to shove off of only using blizzard maps? They were terrible in BW back in the olden days too. If the GSL adopts new maps, the rest of the scene will follow.
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On January 08 2011 00:05 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 00:03 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:00 Faze. wrote:On January 07 2011 19:25 Essentia wrote:On January 07 2011 16:59 Refreshe wrote:If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics  . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash? Honestly if blizz had just made another expansion to SC1 and called it SC2 it woulda been a bigger success than the current SC2. Not at all, only SC1 players would play it. SC2 has a shitton more players than SC1 right now, its only less popular in terms of tournaments and fame in korea. I know you're gonna say "yeah but all these new players are shits and WoW-newbs anyways we don't need them", well guess what, the world doesn't need your retardation either. I think that many of the SC2 players witht he mindset of "ooohh so pretty 3d graphixxx" would also play BW HD. Let's stop the ignorant BW vs. SC2 discussions right here. You misunderstand me. I was trying to make the point that there is a breed of casual gamer not exclusive to SC2 who will jump at any of the new graphically superior games.
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The game isn't even 1 year old and shit like this is being written already? Seriously. BW didn't take 6 months to become what it is today in Korea, hiccups are bound to happen. Blizzard really needs to do their part on the map pool in particular though if they don't want viewship to continue to decline. There is only so many times that people want to watch games that are so short and predictive for reasons that have been debated to death already.
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[QUOTE]On January 07 2011 23:55 ICanFlyLow wrote: [QUOTE]On January 07 2011 23:52 bonifaceviii wrote: [QUOTE]On January 07 2011 23:36 GoldenH wrote: BW will live if SC2 dies... in Korea[QUOTE] Basically. BW will live on in Korea because it's so firmly entrenched there, but if SC2 dies everywhere other than Korea BW dies too.[/QUOTE]
BW will live because gamewise, challengewise and spectatorwise its superiour. Anyone that has played BW for atleast the same amount of time theyve spent on SC2 that disagrees with me?
Also, i remember it being a hell more fun to play [/QUOTE]
I just went back on SC:BW the other day for the first time in a couple years. I gotta say you have to really only play that and only that to see it that way. As soon as you touch a more recent game you automatically realize how bad a lot of things are in SC:BW, I'm not even gonna talk about the graphics cuz that's a given, but just the way units move and feel is all fucked up in there, I mean zerglings are so freaking huge they pump into each other, it's aweful. The gameplay mechanics in SC2 offer a lot more flexibility and fluidity. Challengewise, yah maybe atm SC:BW has more challenge, but as things go, SC2 will quickly catch up. Spectatorwise, yes SC:BW has more... in korea, and korea only. SC2 is a huge step for esport around the world, many new players getting into it everyday all thanks to SC2, not SC1.
As for being more fun... I think you're just nostalgic.
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As far as I can see it there is not a hugh increase in new bw players who, in this time and age, choose bw of all the games to play it because they feel it is the best e.t.c. . Almost all of the new players who either get into the age of playing PC/MAC games or start playing will choose sc2 over bw and some of them may not even have seen bw. So I see no future where the viewership of bw can actually increase while the potential for sc2 is wide open right now. I really like SC2 and I would be very sorry to see it going away. In fact, if SC2 "dies", I would be much less interested in watching computer games broadcasted online and thus I also would view much less bw.
Although I feel that broodwar will eventually die out naturally if status Quo is held as I think that SC2 teams are much more liberal as their BW counterparts and if I was a bw progamer, I would switch.
Well, long live Broodwar. Long live Starcraft 2 !!
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Love how no-one actually has the figures that matter to the sponsers.. ie the people watching the games. If 3 men a dog were watching, then yes it's in shit.. opening ceremony turnouts count for nothing, I've watched football my entire life.. you think i'd honestly give a crap to turn up the world cup opening ceremony? hells no.. I'd go watch England play games. not honestly interested in watching some random people who have nothing to do with it dance while they shoot fireworks. I'm pretty sure it's the same for Korea.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 08 2011 00:09 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 00:05 Jibba wrote:On January 08 2011 00:03 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:00 Faze. wrote:On January 07 2011 19:25 Essentia wrote:On January 07 2011 16:59 Refreshe wrote:If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics  . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash? Honestly if blizz had just made another expansion to SC1 and called it SC2 it woulda been a bigger success than the current SC2. Not at all, only SC1 players would play it. SC2 has a shitton more players than SC1 right now, its only less popular in terms of tournaments and fame in korea. I know you're gonna say "yeah but all these new players are shits and WoW-newbs anyways we don't need them", well guess what, the world doesn't need your retardation either. I think that many of the SC2 players witht he mindset of "ooohh so pretty 3d graphixxx" would also play BW HD. Let's stop the ignorant BW vs. SC2 discussions right here. You misunderstand me. I was trying to make the point that there is a breed of casual gamer not exclusive to SC2 who will jump at any of the new graphically superior games. Right, you're just insulting SC2 players, not SC2. So much better.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
On January 08 2011 00:24 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 00:09 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:05 Jibba wrote:On January 08 2011 00:03 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:00 Faze. wrote:On January 07 2011 19:25 Essentia wrote:On January 07 2011 16:59 Refreshe wrote:If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics  . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash? Honestly if blizz had just made another expansion to SC1 and called it SC2 it woulda been a bigger success than the current SC2. Not at all, only SC1 players would play it. SC2 has a shitton more players than SC1 right now, its only less popular in terms of tournaments and fame in korea. I know you're gonna say "yeah but all these new players are shits and WoW-newbs anyways we don't need them", well guess what, the world doesn't need your retardation either. I think that many of the SC2 players witht he mindset of "ooohh so pretty 3d graphixxx" would also play BW HD. Let's stop the ignorant BW vs. SC2 discussions right here. You misunderstand me. I was trying to make the point that there is a breed of casual gamer not exclusive to SC2 who will jump at any of the new graphically superior games. Right, you're just insulting SC2 players, not SC2. So much better.
I think he only mans casual gamers...although this is the same for everygame....hardcores would stick to the game longer than casuals.
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On January 08 2011 00:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 00:24 Jibba wrote:On January 08 2011 00:09 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:05 Jibba wrote:On January 08 2011 00:03 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:00 Faze. wrote:On January 07 2011 19:25 Essentia wrote:On January 07 2011 16:59 Refreshe wrote:If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics  . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash? Honestly if blizz had just made another expansion to SC1 and called it SC2 it woulda been a bigger success than the current SC2. Not at all, only SC1 players would play it. SC2 has a shitton more players than SC1 right now, its only less popular in terms of tournaments and fame in korea. I know you're gonna say "yeah but all these new players are shits and WoW-newbs anyways we don't need them", well guess what, the world doesn't need your retardation either. I think that many of the SC2 players witht he mindset of "ooohh so pretty 3d graphixxx" would also play BW HD. Let's stop the ignorant BW vs. SC2 discussions right here. You misunderstand me. I was trying to make the point that there is a breed of casual gamer not exclusive to SC2 who will jump at any of the new graphically superior games. Right, you're just insulting SC2 players, not SC2. So much better. I think he only mans casual gamers...although this is the same for everygame....hardcores would stick to the game longer than casuals.
There are a ton more casuals than hardcore gamers in SC2. So the point stands that most of the SC2 community can take exception to what he wrote.
OT: There really is no point in comparing the games. SC2 is new and has alot of space to grow as a game. We aren't even at 1 expansion yet of the planned 2. The games needs to grow and the venues do too.... they just have to grow with the game not oversize it.
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If bw will live if Sc2 dies then i hope that Sc2 will fail in Korea.
China = Warcraft III Korea = Broodwar Foreigners = Starcraft II
Everyone is happy, white boi can get some money at Sc2 and i can watch OSL / MSL 
Also can't wait for warcraft IV <3
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Give it time. SC2 has had only 3 Opens so far and are in the process of the 4th GSL event. There was more money infused (outside of contracts) into SC2 in a 3 month period than in a single year of BW Prize money. The talent is still young, so short of someone being a emperor in BW and proving themselves in SC2, i don't except big contracts to be handed out just because someone made code S. Maybe after the current S-A promotions/demotions finish you'll see more big "contracts".
BW is riding on 10 years as a eSport, SC2 on less than 10 month, it's no wonder BW is still more popular. Honestly as much as I am rooting for SC2 to succeed, if SC2 was more popular at this point I would be a little confused/worried. You have 13-17 year olds playing this on a level that i can't reach right now. So all they grew up knowing was SC2 and now this new thing is here. BW all stars and pros like Jaedong & Flash have no reason to leave BW right now. They are dominating a game and making themselves money.
SC2 =/ BW - you just can't compare the two. I've got a feeling that by the end of this calendar year you will think back and question why an article like this even doubted SC2 in the first place. The game is <6 months old.
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On January 08 2011 00:32 ShadowLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 00:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:24 Jibba wrote:On January 08 2011 00:09 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:05 Jibba wrote:On January 08 2011 00:03 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:00 Faze. wrote:On January 07 2011 19:25 Essentia wrote:On January 07 2011 16:59 Refreshe wrote:If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics  . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash? Honestly if blizz had just made another expansion to SC1 and called it SC2 it woulda been a bigger success than the current SC2. Not at all, only SC1 players would play it. SC2 has a shitton more players than SC1 right now, its only less popular in terms of tournaments and fame in korea. I know you're gonna say "yeah but all these new players are shits and WoW-newbs anyways we don't need them", well guess what, the world doesn't need your retardation either. I think that many of the SC2 players witht he mindset of "ooohh so pretty 3d graphixxx" would also play BW HD. Let's stop the ignorant BW vs. SC2 discussions right here. You misunderstand me. I was trying to make the point that there is a breed of casual gamer not exclusive to SC2 who will jump at any of the new graphically superior games. Right, you're just insulting SC2 players, not SC2. So much better. I think he only mans casual gamers...although this is the same for everygame....hardcores would stick to the game longer than casuals. There are a ton more casuals than hardcore gamers in SC2. So the point stands that most of the SC2 community can take exception to what he wrote. OT: There really is no point in comparing the games. SC2 is new and has alot of space to grow as a game. We aren't even at 1 expansion yet of the planned 2. The games needs to grow and the venues do too.... they just have to grow with the game not oversize it. If you read the posts i was replying to you should see that i was only trying to contend that new players would just as well play a spruced up BW if Blizzard had gone that route.
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On January 08 2011 00:28 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 00:24 Jibba wrote:On January 08 2011 00:09 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:05 Jibba wrote:On January 08 2011 00:03 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:00 Faze. wrote:On January 07 2011 19:25 Essentia wrote:On January 07 2011 16:59 Refreshe wrote:If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics  . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash? Honestly if blizz had just made another expansion to SC1 and called it SC2 it woulda been a bigger success than the current SC2. Not at all, only SC1 players would play it. SC2 has a shitton more players than SC1 right now, its only less popular in terms of tournaments and fame in korea. I know you're gonna say "yeah but all these new players are shits and WoW-newbs anyways we don't need them", well guess what, the world doesn't need your retardation either. I think that many of the SC2 players witht he mindset of "ooohh so pretty 3d graphixxx" would also play BW HD. Let's stop the ignorant BW vs. SC2 discussions right here. You misunderstand me. I was trying to make the point that there is a breed of casual gamer not exclusive to SC2 who will jump at any of the new graphically superior games. Right, you're just insulting SC2 players, not SC2. So much better. I think he only mans casual gamers...although this is the same for everygame....hardcores would stick to the game longer than casuals.
No he said there are people who only play for graphics, which is the easiest answer to give, not even thinking about other aspects such as gameplay. SC2 gameplay is also MUCH better than SC1, on every level, all SC1 has right now is probably better balance, and I say probably because this is hard to judge for ANYONE and SC2 is still young. And SC1 also has the old units that people miss in SC2. Other than that, if you wan clumsy units pumping into each others, humongous zerglings and a blatant lack of user friendly control mechanics, go play SC1. Okay that was gratuitously mean, I still like SC1, but people just fail to see the real differences between the 2 sometimes.
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On January 08 2011 00:24 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 00:09 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:05 Jibba wrote:On January 08 2011 00:03 ShadeR wrote:On January 08 2011 00:00 Faze. wrote:On January 07 2011 19:25 Essentia wrote:On January 07 2011 16:59 Refreshe wrote:If starcraft 2 fails, and lets hope it doesn't, they could always make broodwar with better graphics  . This would maybe be blizzards last resort for cash? Honestly if blizz had just made another expansion to SC1 and called it SC2 it woulda been a bigger success than the current SC2. Not at all, only SC1 players would play it. SC2 has a shitton more players than SC1 right now, its only less popular in terms of tournaments and fame in korea. I know you're gonna say "yeah but all these new players are shits and WoW-newbs anyways we don't need them", well guess what, the world doesn't need your retardation either. I think that many of the SC2 players witht he mindset of "ooohh so pretty 3d graphixxx" would also play BW HD. Let's stop the ignorant BW vs. SC2 discussions right here. You misunderstand me. I was trying to make the point that there is a breed of casual gamer not exclusive to SC2 who will jump at any of the new graphically superior games. Right, you're just insulting SC2 players, not SC2. So much better.
I don't see how his statement can be warped into an insult to sc2 players. He's merely stating that there are people out there that would play a game if it were graphically appealing. I think that his statement is very much true that there are people out there that would play a game specifically because it is visually appealing. I don't think that he's trying to insult the sc2 community by saying, "the only reason you play sc2 is because of the graphics," like you think he is.
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On January 07 2011 23:51 hifriend wrote: SC2 won't fail by any means but the situation is looking a lot like WC3. Actually what's happening is identical to WC3.
Interesting opinion, I have to say I agree completely - WC3 also was very (over-)hyped when it came out, the new RTS standard that will change the world forever blahblah. Although there wasn't anything remotely like GSL for WC3, the game was "somewhat" succesful in Korea at the beginning, with interest declining after the first time. As we all know it became one of the most succesful RTS games outside of Korea and also the interest in Korea never died completely (do I have to even mention Moon here?).
I wouldn't be surprised if SC2 had to share the same fate, huge success in the "foreign world" but a failure to "replace" BW or at least coexist with BW on the same level in Korea, at least in the near future. The more important question for me is though, if this is a bad thing.
The one thing I want you to notice is, that pretty much everybody nowadays is talking about BW compared to SC2...notcie something? Indeed, BW is SC 1 PLUS the expansion. SC2 isn't a "finished" game, we will see two expansions, each of which will introduce new units that will change balance completely. It isn't necessarily a bad thing if SC2 stays low for 1-2 years, grows, lets some players get REALLY good at it and THEN aims for the huge success in e-sports. If SC2 will be successful in the long run can only be determined AFTER the game is "finished", after all the expansions and after all of the units are in place.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
I wouldn't say its better but its definitely more forgiving....SC1 has that really high skill ceiling because of it,SC2 doesn't have such a thing,but you know as the game matures you might find some hallmarks that define who is an expert player in SC2 and who is not.
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In the expansion packs they should make the game more challenging mechanically and make bigger maps. If that doesn't happen for the first expansion pack then SC2 will be relegated to e-sports success that is comparable to war3. I know they want to dumb it down for the casual gamer but frankly it is absurd how easy the game is mechanically if it wants to challenge a long term legend like broodwar. Broodwar has lasted so long because the skill keeps increasing over the years due to all the "imperfections" in the game by today's game making standards. SC2 with its MBS, automine, autocast etc took out half of the actions that determine a players skill. I can't wait until someone replies saying its an RTS and should be about strategy and not mechanics. Well broodwar is successful largely because of the mechanical influence and the skill gaps that result. People want to watch superior performances on TV. Performances that get them excited and make them wish that they could do that. SC2 can't do that right now and many people, along with myself, question whether or not it will be able to in the long run due to the lack of challenging mechanics as compared with Broodwar.
Korean fans aren't stupid. They can tell the difference between the skills of the players and would much rather watch the more interesting and challenging games of broodwar than the pretty yet one base all in games of SC2.
That being said, it is just an opening ceremony and we don't know the actually #'s that GSL generates as far as revenue etc.. so we can't be sure as to whether or not it is successful at this point in time or dying out.
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And one thing that was not mentioned :
The best league possible would be where progamers actually had to play against each other in BW AND SC2. It could start as a part fun tournament but I think that this has HUGH potential.
Arguments like such that when both games have to be played no one would master a game may be legit, but not that important imo.
I would totally watch that. 24/7.
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BW might not need SC2 to succeed for it to succeed, but E-sports does. E-sports needs a successor in the RTS genre for BW, and there's really no way around that. Do BW fans honestly think that a 20 year old game will continue to be played at WCG's 10 years from now? BW will die, maybe not for another 5-10 years, but it will die eventually. Why wait for a successor when there is one now? The BW community should aim to make SC2 as good as it can be before BW dies so that there is a game worthy of being BW's successor when it does, eventually, die.
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Honestly, I'm surprised BW is still being broadcast while there is litigation going on and a serious question of the legality of it. I would expect a judge to court order the league to cease while the game creator sues the league for copyright issues. It looks like a slam dunk for Blizzard, don't know how someone can broadcast Blizzards copyrighted material with Blizzard in clear opposition. The Korean courts would have to be blatantly biased for Blizzard not to win. I think the end of Pro BW is eminent, strictly on a legal basis. However, I truly hope both games can co-exist. Perhaps BW will remain alive and strong in Korea, while SC2 as an esport explodes in the rest of the world. Maybe Blizzard will realize its in their best interest to just leave BW alone. BW has and still does baptize a lot of people into Esports and RTS. Keeping it alive is a good thing for SC2 imo. Especially, when you think of all the people worldwide who simply don't have the financial means to get a computer capable of runnng sc2. There are so many possibilities for the future.
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Feeling that theres nothing much that we can do, I'm just going to wait and see how it all pans out.. But continue to support SC2 as much as I can. If it turns out that the West turns into the hub of SC2, so be it.
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I can see both games surviving and i can also imagine scenarios where either brood war or SC2 is the only survivor but what i really don't understand is that the rely on each other for anything "In order for BW to live, SC2 needs to succeed, and in order for SC2 to succeed, BW needs to keep its popularity". This just doesn't make any sense to me at all.
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I've read a lot of post from this topic, good reading. Just got something to say about "esport":
People need to be honest as to why interest in the GSL is ACTUALLY DECLINING!
The natural assumption was that Starcraft 2 would ramp up in popularity as time went on, but that obviously isn't the case.
I'm too tired to re-iterate why Starcraft 2 is flawed as a spectator sport, but maybe someone else will.
Starcraft 2 is running on hype and novelty. It will soon meet the same hard limitations that broodwar faces as an e-sport -- only worse because it is an inferior game. Allow me to qualify.
Ask any progamer which of the two Starcrafts is more difficult, more balanced, more rewarding of skill, and he will say that it is broodwar.
That is the uncomfortable truth that can't be buried by any amount of hype or direct cash-infusion. If broodwar is to fail in the long run, Starcraft 2 is similar enough (slightly worse in all ways), that it can also be expected to fail. I think you are absolutly wrong! A game does not live because of the skill it needs, the balance or the difficulty, it's all a question of community and charisma.
SC1 worked only because of the charisma of the first generation programer, and also because of the first generation of nerds who made a pretty nice community (liquid is the perfect exemple). People always tend to overrate the technical aspect of any sport, be it computer gaming or any other real physical sport (and it's mostly due to the fact that any sports' commentator are specialist). Take the american football for exemple: anybody who knows the rule knows it's a pretty intelligent game, with a lot of strategic parts. But damn, what makes it a great sport to watch is to know the players on the field, to see them clash with fury, to accompagny a wild runner through out the entire field with the eyes and the heart... the most BASIC actions.
For the moment, I think SC2 lack community (no chat channel allo?) and player charisma.
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On January 07 2011 13:43 puppykiller wrote: Would Blizzard ever destroy the BW servers out of rage that sc2 fails? They would be attacking their own fans, it's absurd.
LAN.
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I love people who say that SC2 is not mechanically demanding, even though we have yet to see anyone play flawlessly.
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present.
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What is blizzard going to do in its expansion packs?
Make the game more difficult? (I highly doubt it)
Have gamers that play games that are as beautiful as bw? (fat chance, last gsl finals was like watching ametures play on iccup with one not so good player getting stomped by another not so good player making both making so many mistakes that it really makes you cringe... a bw final would never have be of such rubbish quality.
bw is art..even cheese is fun to watch because it's exhilirating!! Beautiful micro is involved by both the attacker and the defender and it's all over if it fails and it CAN fail...unlike sc2 allin 1a scv rush, wtf?
bw players are capable of things that are impossible to do if you're a normal everyday guy playing ladder..that's what makes bw so amazing to watch..these guys started playing when they were 12! It is their life!
With the skill cap so much lower in sc2, there's not that much to gain from simply starting earlier or playing longer. You see so many new faces every season concisting of kids that just played in their basement that are good enough to play against pros that put their whole lives into the game. There is so much fluctuation of champions in the GSL because everyone is almost as good as eachother and it's very difficult to be the best at any point in time. There is no Flash, there is no Jaedong, there is no Bisu, Stork, Yellow, iloveoov...
SC2 doesn't have 1. SKILL 2. ENTERTAINMENT VALUE 3. BEAUTIFUL GAMES 4. CHAMPIONS/BONJWA 5. THE KOREAN MARKET
Blizzard have forgotten what it is that makes games great (and I don't mean in a financial sense).. Or perhaps they never did..give kespa a call?
User was warned for this post
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On January 08 2011 01:54 aupstar wrote:
SC2 doesn't have 1. SKILL 2. ENTERTAINMENT VALUE 3. BEAUTIFUL GAMES 4. CHAMPIONS/BONJWA 5. THE KOREAN MARKET
While I understand that many of the BW people are having trouble letting go (although I myself did not have any trouble whatsoever), I really don't understand statements like this. SC2 certainly requires skill, unless of course you have mastered it and no one else has....in fact, saying that GSL looked like noobs playing doesn't lead me to believe that SC2 requires no skill-- it probably requires more skill than we are currently seeing, as there have yet to be flawless games. It is also entertaining, and not just to me, but to NEW people in the community. The ones that don't want to watch StarPong Brood War. Battles in SC2 are pretty entertaining, and Blizzard has done a good job at making it easy for spectators to follow the progress of the game without having to know too much technical information. As for 4, I think champions are currently coming out of the woodwork, and we see them in the making every day. As far as 5 is concerned, I could care less. The sooner people stop caring about Korea and start caring about esports in their area, the better.
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I'm beginning to think that SC2 will exist as an outlet for the BW players who are getting old or not doing too well to move into. The game is amazing as it is (honestly, more fun for me to watch that BW) but BW has a much higher need for youth/speed, and the market is still there for pros to make money.
I think they can coexist as long as Blizzard doesn't bust a crazy. Watching Jaedong, Flash, and the like playing in SC2 after their BW career will be interesting. Maybe the trend will be that Koreans will gain popularity and fame throughout BW and bring it over to SC2 much like July, Nada, and Boxer.
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I think gsl is huge success world wide. With this premium service they are making tons of money, dont judge how many people were on the opening ceremony. The vods from day 1 had 143 000 views.. Yes bw is more popular than sc2 in korea but sc2 is still huge success. // Sorry for my bad english.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
aupstar.....the perfect response to your argument is that BW is a game that developed this far whereas SC2 hasn't.
Why is it the best response?lets see what you claim SC2 doesn't have.
SKILL-the game doesn't even have a standard play style like BW,its more like a flavor of the month build order for SC2.
Entertainment Value/Beautiful Games-there have been some crazily entertaining games,one game I would say was way back in the beta TLO vs Nazgul.That was a beautiful game and extremely entertaining.but that aside there has still not been any sort of standardized play which leads to a very unstable metagame,some new build order which is completely unheard of will rape a know build order.As long as there will be build order wins,there will be less exciting games in SC2.
Champions/Bonjwas-Even you should agree that its too fucking early to have a Bonjwa in this unstable game,IIRC the idea of Bonjwa came only during NaDa's prime and people argued that BoxeR and Oov were also just as awesome as him in their prime and thats how the first 3 bonjwas came to be.
Korean Market-Because no one appeared to the the opening ceremony and all the games up until Thursday,Koreans hate SC2....I saw quite a lot of people in the audience today.(using my awesome skills to watch both GSL and OSL simultaneously)
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On January 08 2011 00:46 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 23:51 hifriend wrote: SC2 won't fail by any means but the situation is looking a lot like WC3. Actually what's happening is identical to WC3. Interesting opinion, I have to say I agree completely - WC3 also was very (over-)hyped when it came out, the new RTS standard that will change the world forever blahblah. Although there wasn't anything remotely like GSL for WC3, the game was "somewhat" succesful in Korea at the beginning, with interest declining after the first time. Actually, WC3 died in Korea mostly due to 'rigged map' incident.
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On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote: Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present.
You guys should really stop using that argument since it's not true at all. Not just Korea but the whole east Asia region (except Australia) is still sticking to BW (and War3 and AoE). The main reason is Sc2's high price, high system requirement and no LAN support.
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On January 08 2011 00:11 Faze. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 23:55 ICanFlyLow wrote:On January 07 2011 23:52 bonifaceviii wrote:On January 07 2011 23:36 GoldenH wrote:BW will live if SC2 dies... in Korea Basically. BW will live on in Korea because it's so firmly entrenched there, but if SC2 dies everywhere other than Korea BW dies too.
BW will live because gamewise, challengewise and spectatorwise its superiour. Anyone that has played BW for atleast the same amount of time theyve spent on SC2 that disagrees with me? Also, i remember it being a hell more fun to play  I just went back on SC:BW the other day for the first time in a couple years. I gotta say you have to really only play that and only that to see it that way. As soon as you touch a more recent game you automatically realize how bad a lot of things are in SC:BW, I'm not even gonna talk about the graphics cuz that's a given, but just the way units move and feel is all fucked up in there, I mean zerglings are so freaking huge they pump into each other, it's aweful. The gameplay mechanics in SC2 offer a lot more flexibility and fluidity. Challengewise, yah maybe atm SC:BW has more challenge, but as things go, SC2 will quickly catch up. Spectatorwise, yes SC:BW has more... in korea, and korea only. SC2 is a huge step for esport around the world, many new players getting into it everyday all thanks to SC2, not SC1. As for being more fun... I think you're just nostalgic.
I play both, and personally SC2 is more fun when playing casually, like customs or team pubstomps, and BW is more fun to play competitively. All your "bad points" about BW make it more fun competitively. The fluidity makes SC2 great... for A-moving while playing at 100 APM, and munching on a cookie.
SC2 won't catch up challenge-wise unless Blizzard makes some radical changes in the expansions.
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I wish all the money pumped into GOM was pumped in the NA/EU organizations or competitions to be honest. At the end of the day, MLG seems to attract more live audience than GSL if these reported numbers are correct, and it's growing all the time.
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On January 08 2011 02:47 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote: Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. You guys should really stop using that argument since it's not true at all. Not just Korea but the whole east Asia region (except Australia) is still sticking to BW (and War3 and AoE). The main reason is Sc2's high price, high system requirement and no LAN support. Sorry about that, I meant "the whole east Asia region (except Australia)" can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present.
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On January 08 2011 02:51 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:47 kamikami wrote:On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote: Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. You guys should really stop using that argument since it's not true at all. Not just Korea but the whole east Asia region (except Australia) is still sticking to BW (and War3 and AoE). The main reason is Sc2's high price, high system requirement and no LAN support. Sorry about that, I meant "the whole east Asia region (except Australia)" can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present.
Lol... you kids can keep moving on to the "next big thing" with shiny graphics.
Some people don't like change, some people also instantly jumps on the new thing, neither is preferable to the other.
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On January 08 2011 02:52 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:51 FrostOtter wrote:On January 08 2011 02:47 kamikami wrote:On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote: Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. You guys should really stop using that argument since it's not true at all. Not just Korea but the whole east Asia region (except Australia) is still sticking to BW (and War3 and AoE). The main reason is Sc2's high price, high system requirement and no LAN support. Sorry about that, I meant "the whole east Asia region (except Australia)" can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. Lol... you kids can keep moving on to the "next big thing" with shiny graphics. Some people don't like change, some people also instantly jumps on the new thing, neither is preferable to the other. You kids? I played BW from release. Hell, I'm probably older than you are. I never had a problem with it until SC2 came out. I can just recognize when it is time to move on, and I don't need to resist change out of nostalgia.
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On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote: I love people who say that SC2 is not mechanically demanding, even though we have yet to see anyone play flawlessly.
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present.
its been 6 months and people are playing more perfectly than in bw
User was warned for this post
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On January 08 2011 02:55 MuseX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote: I love people who say that SC2 is not mechanically demanding, even though we have yet to see anyone play flawlessly.
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. its been 6 months and people are playing more perfectly than in bw That is in no way a subjective statement, right?
And if people are playing more perfectly than in BW, that kind of torpedoes the "no beautiful games" argument, doesn't it?
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On January 08 2011 02:55 MuseX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote: I love people who say that SC2 is not mechanically demanding, even though we have yet to see anyone play flawlessly.
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. its been 6 months and people are playing more perfectly than in bw I as much as any SC2 fan want to see it thrive, but that's bullshit. Think, "do I know what I'm talking about?" before you speak.
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I'm not trying to hate on old school, die hard BW players here, but it seems a little ridiculous to think that BW can survive another 5-6 years. It is a great game and I'm glad there is such a huge community behind it, but with SC2's release I don't see how it can compete. Maybe in Korea the pro-scene will stay big, but the rest of the world has moved on, I think they should too.
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On January 08 2011 02:57 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:55 MuseX wrote:On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote: I love people who say that SC2 is not mechanically demanding, even though we have yet to see anyone play flawlessly.
Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. its been 6 months and people are playing more perfectly than in bw That is in no way a subjective statement, right? And if people are playing more perfectly than in BW, that kind of torpedoes the "no beautiful games" argument, doesn't it? No actually it doesn't. Just because one player plays perfectly does not mean the game is dynamic and exciting to watch. And because it is so easy to play perfectly, it makes the likelihood of a comeback far less, which makes gameplay less exciting because the spectator can have a pretty good idea of who is going to win fairly early on as small advantages can turn out to be game deciding.
Also, you're right, old games never retain popularity. I mean who plays that game called chess anymore?
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The question is, why should we move on to an inferior game (at least for now)? Sure, it's a matter of opinion, but if our opinion is such, then what incentive is there exactly? Just to stop "living in the past"? That would be incredibly shallow, not to mention fallacious.
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On January 08 2011 02:55 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:52 buhhy wrote:On January 08 2011 02:51 FrostOtter wrote:On January 08 2011 02:47 kamikami wrote:On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote: Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. You guys should really stop using that argument since it's not true at all. Not just Korea but the whole east Asia region (except Australia) is still sticking to BW (and War3 and AoE). The main reason is Sc2's high price, high system requirement and no LAN support. Sorry about that, I meant "the whole east Asia region (except Australia)" can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. Lol... you kids can keep moving on to the "next big thing" with shiny graphics. Some people don't like change, some people also instantly jumps on the new thing, neither is preferable to the other. You kids? I played BW from release. Hell, I'm probably older than you are. I never had a problem with it until SC2 came out. I can just recognize when it is time to move on, and I don't need to resist change out of nostalgia.
What's the difference between nostalgia and instantly switching over to the new and shiny thing before it's proven? Nothing really. Until SC2 is clearly seen to be a successor to BW, and even then, it's not the "time to move on". Who are you to decide when something or someone should change?
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On January 08 2011 03:04 Enervate wrote: . I mean who plays that game called chess anymore? No one compared to the number of people who play Halo.
What's the difference between nostalgia and instantly switching over to the new and shiny thing before it's proven? Nothing really. Until SC2 is clearly seen to be a successor to BW, it's not the "time to move on". Who are you to decide when something or someone should change? Who are you to decide when something or someone shouldn't change? It works both ways.
Maybe it is just because I can remember that it took a while for BW to become what it is today, and that SC2 is already more interesting for me than BW was-- and it isn't even done being changed yet.
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On January 08 2011 03:13 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:04 Enervate wrote: . I mean who plays that game called chess anymore? No one compared to the number of people who play Halo. Show nested quote +What's the difference between nostalgia and instantly switching over to the new and shiny thing before it's proven? Nothing really. Until SC2 is clearly seen to be a successor to BW, it's not the "time to move on". Who are you to decide when something or someone should change? Who are you to decide when something or someone shouldn't change? It works both ways. Maybe it is just because I can remember that it took a while for BW to become what it is today, and that SC2 is already more interesting for me than BW was-- and it isn't even done being changed yet.
I just like to see how everyone is like "It's been a year and SC2 is NOT the new BW, must be bad."
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Until there is cooperation between the BW and SC2 scenes, there will always be competition between the two games that threatens the overall stability of the Korean SC scene. KeSPA and Blizzard need to get their act together and work out a deal, even if it is detrimental to either one or both of the scenes. Right now, both scenes are completely different entities competing for the same audience, sponsors, and resources. Until the barriers between KeSPA and the SC2 scene are broken down, it will remain this way.
If the games compete, growth will be slow and destructive damage will always be a possibility for either scene. If both scenes cooperate, however, both SC2 and BW can flourish without risk of one being artificially killed off.
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One thing you can learn from this at least, always shoot for too small when you're renting a stadium. It looks better to have a line out the door than empty seats, no matter what the numbers are. Hopefully GSL can get past this bad PR.
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I wonder who the E-Sports personel were that declared it a failure, Kespa has already shown a taint in some of the E sports Journalists, who put out only what kespa say. If it was from those two journalists then i would discount them greatly about the "failure" but if it was others then i would be a little more inclined to believe them. I don't consider it a failure as much as an optimism.
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On January 08 2011 03:13 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:04 Enervate wrote: . I mean who plays that game called chess anymore? No one compared to the number of people who play Halo. Show nested quote +What's the difference between nostalgia and instantly switching over to the new and shiny thing before it's proven? Nothing really. Until SC2 is clearly seen to be a successor to BW, it's not the "time to move on". Who are you to decide when something or someone should change? Who are you to decide when something or someone shouldn't change? It works both ways. Maybe it is just because I can remember that it took a while for BW to become what it is today, and that SC2 is already more interesting for me than BW was-- and it isn't even done being changed yet.
If it's so subjective, why label BW fans as backwards and nostalgic. Is it so hard to believe that some people still genuinely enjoy playing and/or watching BW more than SC2? You seem to be optimistic about the development of SC2, but not everyone shares that optimism, so it shouldn't be surprising that some people don't accept SC2 yet.
On January 08 2011 03:18 Rah wrote: One thing you can learn from this at least, always shoot for too small when you're renting a stadium. It looks better to have a line out the door than empty seats, no matter what the numbers are.
Haha, so true.
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I think people also need to have a reality check on the influence of e-sports and the connection to Blizzard, and how all that relates to the success/failure of a game.
Blizzard is a major company that currently operates some of the biggest and most successful games in the world. They have confirmed over 3 million sales of SC2 - and that was in September. One can only assume at this point that number is over 4 million. As much as we want to say things like "if eSports dies cause Blizzard won't support it then SC2 will die!"
No it won't. Brood War is not successful because of the eSport scene. Broodwar was successful before eSports were anything big at all.
People need to separate the success and failure of SC2 and BW from the success and failure of the respectable eSport. Of the 4 million+ people that own SC2 how many do you think follow the pro scene at all? I mean most of those people don't care, and Blizzard's job isn't to foster eSports that will generate them no real money in the long run. That is just the reality of it.
So SC2 is not going to fail. And it isn't reasonable to expect them to do anything to SC2 to help the eSport scene if it doesn't also help their bottom line. People making comments like "make it mechanically harder..." well you don't sell 4 million copies of a game these days that nobody can play at a respectable level without 200APM. Most people don't have 100APM.
They are trying to market to the next generation gamer. Not updating things like mechanics will just be frustrating and that would lead to the failure in the game much more than easier mechanics will. Look at Broodwar, so few people could really play it at a high level by the end of the game people were mostly playing fastest money maps and customs.
With expansions coming and the fact the game is already ridiculously successful SC2 isn't going to fail. 2 years from now it isn't going to be a bunch of empty servers and 20 minute waits to get a ladder game.
tl;dr - The success and failure of eSports for both SC2 and BW is completely separate issue from the success or failure of SC2. SC2 is already successful as a game, and will continue to be for a long time regardless of if it is a major eSport or not.
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On January 08 2011 03:22 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:13 FrostOtter wrote:On January 08 2011 03:04 Enervate wrote: . I mean who plays that game called chess anymore? No one compared to the number of people who play Halo. What's the difference between nostalgia and instantly switching over to the new and shiny thing before it's proven? Nothing really. Until SC2 is clearly seen to be a successor to BW, it's not the "time to move on". Who are you to decide when something or someone should change? Who are you to decide when something or someone shouldn't change? It works both ways. Maybe it is just because I can remember that it took a while for BW to become what it is today, and that SC2 is already more interesting for me than BW was-- and it isn't even done being changed yet. If it's so subjective, why label BW fans as backwards and nostalgic. Is it so hard to believe that some people still genuinely enjoy playing and/or watching BW more than SC2? You seem to be optimistic about the development of SC2, but not everyone shares that optimism, so it shouldn't be surprising that some people don't accept SC2 yet. The same reason you seem to think that optimism is misguided is the reason that I think BW is nostalgic.,.it is called an opinion. Something being subjective does not mean it is an invalid point of view, it is just means that there is no objectivity within it-- and usually subjectivity is so strong that we will argue it as if it is objective.
My main problem with the remaining BW fans is the insistence that mechanics are synonymous with interesting gameplay. If everyone wants demanding mechanics, why not play Warcraft II or an even older game? When are people going to realize that BW's design was due to the limits of technology, not the way the creators necessarily wanted it to be played?
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I think less people showing up to GSL events has to do with how the matches are played so close to each other. There's a few matches pretty much every day and every week. Since they're played out so fast and the season is over so quick, the audiences will only attend big events such as finals and probably get used to watching the games online at home.
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The part I don't get is the people who seem to want SC2 to fail. I mean, I understand the hardcore BW fanboy aspect, but there's really no reason that SC2 has to cannibalize BW's audience. SC2 brought in a ton of new people who never played BW at all, the two can coexist in harmony just fine with different audiences.
This is a really self-destructive attitude because, if there's one thing Blizzard has proven, it's that they are greedy, vindictive, and myopic. If SC2 fails, what do you think Blizzard will do to BW (I mean aside from all the stuff they're already doing)? It's clear that the company is like a small child that needs to be distracted with rewards to keep them from misbehaving. If SC2 fails, BW will suffer - more than it's already suffering. That's clearly not good - not good for the BW fanboys, not good for Korea, not good for anyone.
So all the people going "hurp, SC2 is just not a spectator sport, of course it's going to fail", this is the completely wrong attitude to have. You should be hoping and praying that SC2 succeeds beyond anyone's imagination, so that Blizzard will be satisfied and move on and leave BW alone. Personally I hope that both games succeed because I think they are almost entirely different games, in terms of spectating at least, but there are a lot of obstacles in the way of their success, most notably Blizzard itself.
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On January 08 2011 03:39 Krigwin wrote: The part I don't get is the people who seem to want SC2 to fail. I mean, I understand the hardcore BW fanboy aspect, but there's really no reason that SC2 has to cannibalize BW's audience. SC2 brought in a ton of new people who never played BW at all, the two can coexist in harmony just fine with different audiences.
This is a really self-destructive attitude because, if there's one thing Blizzard has proven, it's that they are greedy, vindictive, and myopic. If SC2 fails, what do you think Blizzard will do to BW (I mean aside from all the stuff they're already doing)? It's clear that the company is like a small child that needs to be distracted with rewards to keep them from misbehaving. If SC2 fails, BW will suffer - more than it's already suffering. That's clearly not good - not good for the BW fanboys, not good for Korea, not good for anyone.
So all the people going "hurp, SC2 is just not a spectator sport, of course it's going to fail", this is the completely wrong attitude to have. You should be hoping and praying that SC2 succeeds beyond anyone's imagination, so that Blizzard will be satisfied and move on and leave BW alone. Personally I hope that both games succeed because I think they are almost entirely different games, in terms of spectating at least, but there are a lot of obstacles in the way of their success, most notably Blizzard itself.
What more could blizzard do to hurt bw than what it's already doing?
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why do people here care what the korean consensus is? When it comes to the rest of the world there is an insane amount of money and tournaments that are going on and I would say its already taken over WC3 in popularity.
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8 wasted pages, trillions of bits on this forum.
Could anyone provide some actual data, if any, for previous SC:BW, SC2 and current SC:BW and SC2 cause this mixed feelings and revelations each of you seem to be having mean nothing without a spreadsheet to back them out.
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On January 08 2011 03:58 Jager wrote: why do people here care what the korean consensus is? When it comes to the rest of the world there is an insane amount of money and tournaments that are going on and I would say its already taken over WC3 in popularity.
Beating out WC3 as an e-sport is hardly an accomplishment to be proud of. It isn't a surprise that SC2 is compared to SC1 because without the Starcraft name most of us wouldn't be here talking about this new game.
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On January 08 2011 04:04 Dental Floss wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:58 Jager wrote: why do people here care what the korean consensus is? When it comes to the rest of the world there is an insane amount of money and tournaments that are going on and I would say its already taken over WC3 in popularity. Beating out WC3 as an e-sport is hardly an accomplishment to be proud of. It isn't a surprise that SC2 is compared to SC1 because without the Starcraft name most of us wouldn't be here talking about this new game.
Oh? So if this game was just called Wings of Liberty made by Blizzard and is exactly as it is now, people wouldn't be interested? You are being delusional.
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On January 08 2011 03:58 Jager wrote: why do people here care what the korean consensus is? When it comes to the rest of the world there is an insane amount of money and tournaments that are going on and I would say its already taken over WC3 in popularity.
Because e-sports in korea is what e-sports in the rest of the world want to be. Their scene is the standard by which other e-sports competitions are measured. They succeded not only in popularity, they succeded economically and socially, something not yet seen in the rest of the world. Yes, there are big tournaments, with lots of money, but really, nobody outside GG/TL really cares about any of this.
In korea, SC is a marketable brand and a very profitable one, if the same were achieved with other games and/or in other countries, we'd be looking at a very different e-sports scene.
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I think they need to focus less on getting people into the stadium but more on getting their brand out there. Also they need to get away from this "Us Vs. Them" mentality.
With more and more great streaming services popping up, their main goal should be to get this content to as many people as possible while bringing in the biggest amount of sponsors as possible. There is great potential all over the world that us untapped currently. So if they are having problems filling an arena, use all that money that you spent on that production and disperse it out to improving your streams / content. There are so many Starcraft fans out there who still go, "GSL what is that?" If they were given easier access and cheaper content they would be more inclined to get hooked on watching the games.
In korea, SC is a marketable brand and a very profitable one, if the same were achieved with other games and/or in other countries, we'd be looking at a very different e-sports scene.
But the problem is other countries will never take to e-sports like Korea. Here in the US every night there is a major sporting event happening. Korea doesn't have other major sports like Football, Baseball, Basketball, Hockey, Soccer...etc. So the rest of the world needs to worry less about "What works for Korea will work for us!" They need to find their niche in the culture and try and succeed in that area.
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To everyone talking about WC3, the scene for WC3 is still pretty big, but a lot of it's in China, and not so much in Korea. It doesn't have any concentrated scene as large as Korean BW, but it's not a "failure" by any means.
Though, of course, we all naturally want SC2 to succeed as much as BW, or at least, I do, because a lot of people in this thread seem to want it to die.
Let's look at the situation: Brood War might survive and stay stable in Korea, if SC2 were to die. The decline for it might not be for another 5, 10 years, and it might go on like it is today. Great.
The only way ESPORTS internationally is ever going to be anything close to the current Korean BW scene, or even close to the GSL (40,000 dollar first prize anyone?) is if the focus is on SC2. This isn't a discussion about which game is superior, because BW can very well be perfect, and that still won't matter. The audience for professional gaming isn't even close to mostly hardcore gamers. In fact, the audience is largely casual gamers, or even people who hardly game at all, and the appeal of BW can be lost on them.
I want pretty much everyone to watch games of starcraft, and it doesn't seem like very many people will watch games of BW. But I've managed to make all my friends watch pro games of SC2, and they've mostly enjoyed it, you see, everyone who isn't into it as much as the typical Team Liquid poster doesn't really mind the supposed problems like unit clumping, micro issues, unit pushing, MBS, automine, and smart casting.
But anyway, what I want to see happen is for GOM TV to handle their foreign broadcast more professionally, for the GSL to adapt custom maps (hell, they can afford to pay mapmakers), for a reigning champion to emerge (let's go MC~) and for a season-based team league to emerge.
But we'll see.
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I think the big deal with sc2 is that they are trying to make it as the biggest shit ever while the game isn't very popular at the moment. It's like investing a lot of money in something that doesn't sell well, (regarding Korea) surely that could badly fail if they don't change their method.
Now Blizzard killing bw for sc2 will be the top#1 shit move in video games history, I really hope it won't happen.
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Calgary25963 Posts
Does Korea matter to the average person? If we end up with OSL/MSL in Korea, and SC2 has MLG and other tournaments with the same prize pool, is that really a failure? I love Korean BW, but I've never understood why Korea is viewed as a barometer for success when it's a pretty small percentage of SC2 players. They don't really do anything special that anyone else can't do in another country.
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On January 08 2011 03:58 Jager wrote: why do people here care what the korean consensus is? When it comes to the rest of the world there is an insane amount of money and tournaments that are going on and I would say its already taken over WC3 in popularity. Pretty ignorant to think that tournaments will hold up. Why do you think insane amounts of money are being poured in? Popularity? No, it's to gain popularity.
It's dumb to think that because there's lots of money right now, things will get better. SC2 isn't even at BW popularity and realistically needs to far surpass it if it wants to maintain business for a decade, something that BW has miraculously done.
Nobody in the west gives a shit about SC2 the way Koreans care about BW.
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thank you for trans.
I think that problem with GSL is that its too often. look at Hockey world cup its every year and i think thats why its not taken so seriously from players. (they just keep playing in NHL while there is world cup) So GSL should probably stop doing it every month but every second month. And i think they need more firework too.
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On January 08 2011 03:45 aupstar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:39 Krigwin wrote: The part I don't get is the people who seem to want SC2 to fail. I mean, I understand the hardcore BW fanboy aspect, but there's really no reason that SC2 has to cannibalize BW's audience. SC2 brought in a ton of new people who never played BW at all, the two can coexist in harmony just fine with different audiences.
This is a really self-destructive attitude because, if there's one thing Blizzard has proven, it's that they are greedy, vindictive, and myopic. If SC2 fails, what do you think Blizzard will do to BW (I mean aside from all the stuff they're already doing)? It's clear that the company is like a small child that needs to be distracted with rewards to keep them from misbehaving. If SC2 fails, BW will suffer - more than it's already suffering. That's clearly not good - not good for the BW fanboys, not good for Korea, not good for anyone.
So all the people going "hurp, SC2 is just not a spectator sport, of course it's going to fail", this is the completely wrong attitude to have. You should be hoping and praying that SC2 succeeds beyond anyone's imagination, so that Blizzard will be satisfied and move on and leave BW alone. Personally I hope that both games succeed because I think they are almost entirely different games, in terms of spectating at least, but there are a lot of obstacles in the way of their success, most notably Blizzard itself. What more could blizzard do to hurt bw than what it's already doing? I'm not a disciple of the Kotick School of Running Businesses into the Ground (Baby), but more lawsuits? Copyright laws? Perhaps some kind of changes to BW itself? I'm sure they can come up with something if they put all of their considerable money and muscle behind it, whereas right now they're focusing a lot of attention on making SC2 huge.
Also, I should mention that I'm talking specifically of the Korean BW scene. This actually works out really well since I'm fine with the foreign BW scene dying (if it hasn't already) and the Korean BW scene remaining alive and well. The goal should be to emulate the Korean BW scene on a global SC2 level.
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On January 08 2011 04:36 Chill wrote: Does Korea matter to the average person? If we end up with OSL/MSL in Korea, and SC2 has MLG and other tournaments with the same prize pool, is that really a failure? I love Korean BW, but I've never understood why Korea is viewed as a barometer for success when it's a pretty small percentage of SC2 players. They don't really do anything special that anyone else can't do in another country.
I am not sure if it's really a small amount of players if it has the same success of bw. On top of that, bw longevity is due to Korean progamming and not foreigners playing it, so if sc2 korean progaming fails, how long do you expect sc2 to live?
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United States22883 Posts
On January 08 2011 04:36 Chill wrote: Does Korea matter to the average person? If we end up with OSL/MSL in Korea, and SC2 has MLG and other tournaments with the same prize pool, is that really a failure? I love Korean BW, but I've never understood why Korea is viewed as a barometer for success when it's a pretty small percentage of SC2 players. They don't really do anything special that anyone else can't do in another country. I think the idea is that players want a central place to train, and Korea seemed like the best place for that to happen, since it's already happening in BW. Training houses don't exist in any other esport outside of Korea, besides temporary ones for CS, and if they were in Europe/US, they'd surely be more spread out than they are in Korea, possibly reducing their effectiveness.
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Korea is viewed as a barometer for success because the best BW players were korean. The best foreigner wasn't able to beat on a consistent basis a semi-pro korean player. SC2 is a dumbed down shiny version of BW (smart casting, better path AI, multiple selection of buildings, etc...) and that's the key for its success outside Korea: it's easier. Starcraft scene will just end divided like CS1.6 and CS:Source (and both are alive and well).
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On January 08 2011 04:36 dcberkeley wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 03:58 Jager wrote: why do people here care what the korean consensus is? When it comes to the rest of the world there is an insane amount of money and tournaments that are going on and I would say its already taken over WC3 in popularity. Pretty ignorant to think that tournaments will hold up. Why do you think insane amounts of money are being poured in? Popularity? No, it's to gain popularity. It's dumb to think that because there's lots of money right now, things will get better. SC2 isn't even at BW popularity and realistically needs to far surpass it if it wants to maintain business for a decade, something that BW has miraculously done. Nobody in the west gives a shit about SC2 the way Koreans care about BW.
No you are pretty ignorant, SC2 is more popular in the west that BW ever was. There is an insane amount of tournaments because there is a demand for them, companies don't sponsor tournaments to make the game popular they do it for company exposure.
cs 1.6 has been going on strong for over a decade and its had no such business model that Korea had for SC.
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On January 07 2011 17:00 xBillehx wrote:I think both scenes can coexist in Korea and its only a matter of time before we see both SC2 and BW on OGN/MBC. BW is still strong in Korea and SC2 already dominates the foreign scene. SC2 is in the top 10 of the most voted for WCG 2011 and the WCG staff is having a real tough time deciding whether or not to include BW as well. Does WCG air on Korean TV? What I dont get though is why people are even talking about GSL being a failure. The GSL 3 finals stadium was full. 1800~ fans came and the stadium could only hold 2000. The opening day for this season was pretty lame compared to the opening day of the GSLs last year (wtf no kpop groups?!!?1), not to mention it was on January 2nd. Not only is it fucking cold in Korea but people were on their New Years break man. Overall it was really bad timing and not really worth a stadium. It was nothing super special, 4 players in a group stage like the normal days today and a really long intro of the 32 Code S players. (seriously no kpop so lame) I dislike that the article goes on to say the two need each other because of Blizzard. Don't wanna get too much into that because what I also dislike is when fans of one side can't just stfu and play nice with fans of the other. It's a shame people even have to pick sides, I fucking love both. Starcraft is Starcraft and whether it's the MSL finals between Jaedong and Bisu (sorry Flash) or the legendary Boxer vs Nada at the GSL, I'm in for a good time.
I agree with this. I think it was GOM mistake to go for a huge scenario in such a bad timing...January 2? c´mon! I really doubt SC2 is losing popularity or dying. Let´s wait for the semis/finals, you´ll see the difference.
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Honestly I think chance of BW failing is much more likelier than SC2 scene failing no matter what some may say. Let me be skeptical and suggest that maybe they are sneakily trying to brainwash SC2 player (who are in superior position) into believing that they need to keep BW scene out of mercy, because though BW might need SC2, SC2 doesn't need BW.
Edit: Yes, I understand the last statement could be argued up to death, so clarifying that since I am SC1 player I am looking extremely harsh upon it to account for any possible inert bias I may have. Honestly co-existence, or Eastern-Western split, is perfectly fine with me.
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I think we shouldn't be comparing sc2 to bw just yet. What we SHOULD compare is the spectator numbers to 2000/2001 MSL/OSL.
koreans are just too into BW, they all understand how BW works and so they watch BW games. You've got to play the game yourself in order to understand what is going on in pro matches (example: I'm an sc2 player and I have no idea whats going on in BW).
I'm willing to bet that a majority of koreans just aren't getting exposed to sc2 probably because of the high price tag and the un-hackable bnet2.0. People aren't buying sc2, and LANcenters/PCBangs aren't adopting the game. Result? No one cares about sc2 pro-scene, especially since there's starleague season going on.
Solution? Someone needs to get to pirating quick, and put the game on something like Garena (I think that's the name). This could make sc2 big in China too, because only when people can play the game for free/dirt cheap will it become mainstream in asia.
As for a legal solution? Maybe blizzard can lower the price tag, provide free hand-outs to PC-bangs. Also sc2 needs a dota quick, so when people get bored of multiplayer they can just load dota, instead of playing other games/MMOs and getting hooked.
Look at the bind blizzard found themselves in: "Let's make money by making sc2 huge so everyone will have to buy our game!" "Oh wait, the price tag is too high and sc2 isn't taking off as an e-sport, but should we really lower the price tag, it would hurt our profits."
If anyone actually bothered to read what I posted, the main picture that I'm trying to paint is that it's unwise to have e-sports spearheaded by one company alone. They need a union/federation from all critical areas of the sport (sponsors, blizzard, broadcasters, teams, maybe a few players) spearheading the development of the sport. With 1 company (blizzard) having a monopoly over the direction e-sports is heading, we're going to see a lot of really selfish decisions, because in the end, blizzard is a company out to make money.
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I agree that we need to let go of korea as the measurement of success. If Koreans want to play BW, then let them, there are so many sc2 tournaments in EU/NA that i cant even count them. Many of them with like $10000+ prize pools.
SC2 is super popular, my friends are playing it, even some "console kiddies" have started playing it. "but we hate console kiddies", well guess what, you were probably all console kiddies before BW
So let the new generation step in, there is an option (actually many) besides copying BW. Most people were casual gamers before BW, so why is it a bad thing that casual gamers are now playing sc2? And stop with the "shining graphics" argument, it makes you seem stupid. I dont play the game for shiny graphics, nobody does. We play it cause it's new and fun. Yea the graphics is a plus but stop acting like everyone who doesnt play BW is only interested in graphics :D
Oh, and i think Sc2 is doing fine in Korea :D
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I have loved and cherished each and every one of blizzard's games (can't wait for d3!), but I swear on my life that if SC2 dies and blizz kills BW to try to "force feed" everyone, I will boycot them forever
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On January 08 2011 04:36 Chill wrote: Does Korea matter to the average person? If we end up with OSL/MSL in Korea, and SC2 has MLG and other tournaments with the same prize pool, is that really a failure? I love Korean BW, but I've never understood why Korea is viewed as a barometer for success when it's a pretty small percentage of SC2 players. They don't really do anything special that anyone else can't do in another country.
Because as far as e-sports goes, Korea paves the way. The Western scene is developed enough for pro-gamers to live comfortably, whereas in Korea they can. If you ask any pro-gamer whether they'd rather play in OSL finals versus MLG, almost all of them will pick OSL, given the same prize pool. Great feeling to be appreciated by 50,000 people compared to 500.
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I don't think BW needs SC2 at all (it didn't just 6 months ago, why would it need it now?). If blizz just suddenly shut down B.net cuz SC2 failed, they would be the a rather stupid company. Why would company alienate a fanbase and customers they already hold, merely out of spite? Its just like like saying if the iPad fails, apple will discontinue the ipod. Just because diablo 2 doesn't really sell anymore doesn't mean they are shutting down online diablo...
I believe SC2 is a threat to BW, not because its a competing RTS, but because the game is supposed to be the replacement of BW. Non gaming companies are more likely to sponser SC2 because it is more flash and up-to-date than BW. Thus SC2 will most likely have larger tourneys with bigger prize pools. This entices BW players that could be the future Flash, to just go to SC2 because its easy money. This will over time likely weaken BW overall.
I don't think its a 1 way street where one cannot exist with the other. But I do believe that the article is wrong in the points mentioned above.
I think the best thing for e-sports is for the community to establish several games under its core structure (CS 1.6, Quake, BW, etc.), and not remove said games because a newer flashier version comes out.
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On January 08 2011 05:16 wxwx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 04:36 Chill wrote: Does Korea matter to the average person? If we end up with OSL/MSL in Korea, and SC2 has MLG and other tournaments with the same prize pool, is that really a failure? I love Korean BW, but I've never understood why Korea is viewed as a barometer for success when it's a pretty small percentage of SC2 players. They don't really do anything special that anyone else can't do in another country. Because as far as e-sports goes, Korea paves the way. The Western scene is developed enough for pro-gamers to live comfortably, whereas in Korea they can. If you ask any pro-gamer whether they'd rather play in OSL finals versus MLG, almost all of them will pick OSL, given the same prize pool. Great feeling to be appreciated by 50,000 people compared to 500. No, it doesn't pave the way. Korean esports hurts Western esports, because then our players become dedicated to going to Korea and supporting their scene instead of growing a scene over here.
It is like every one shopping at Wal-Mart and then wondering why small businesses don't succeed, or worse, complaining about Wal-Mart and still shopping there. That is why I completely do not support the Korean scene. I don't watch the games, I don't subscribe, nothing. Which is not to say that I have a problem with Korea and its esports, but I do have a problem when Korean esports come at the expense of our esports.
That's why I was so upset (as much as you can be upset over video games) to hear that the EG team was trying to move to Korea.
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On January 08 2011 06:43 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 05:16 wxwx wrote:On January 08 2011 04:36 Chill wrote: Does Korea matter to the average person? If we end up with OSL/MSL in Korea, and SC2 has MLG and other tournaments with the same prize pool, is that really a failure? I love Korean BW, but I've never understood why Korea is viewed as a barometer for success when it's a pretty small percentage of SC2 players. They don't really do anything special that anyone else can't do in another country. Because as far as e-sports goes, Korea paves the way. The Western scene is developed enough for pro-gamers to live comfortably, whereas in Korea they can. If you ask any pro-gamer whether they'd rather play in OSL finals versus MLG, almost all of them will pick OSL, given the same prize pool. Great feeling to be appreciated by 50,000 people compared to 500. No, it doesn't pave the way. Korean esports hurts Western esports, because then our players become dedicated to going to Korea and supporting their scene instead of growing a scene over here. It is like every one shopping at Wal-Mart and then wondering why small businesses don't succeed, or worse, complaining about Wal-Mart and still shopping there. That is why I completely do not support the Korean scene. I don't watch the games, I don't subscribe, nothing. Which is not to say that I have a problem with Korea and its esports, but I do have a problem when Korean esports come at the expense of our esports. That's why I was so upset (as much as you can be upset over video games) to hear that the EG team was trying to move to Korea.
Korean esports doesn't come at the expense of our esports... If we had a league I think everyone would watch it, Koreans would too. We don't have a league.
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The Korean e-sports scene provides a goal for other regions to shoot for. The fact of the matter is we do not have the same representation and organization around e-sports that Korea does. Furthermore, the idea of e-sports isn't region locked like a traditional sport.
The internet is a global phenomenon. Team liquid is made up of pro-gamers from across the world. I think of e-sports as kind of a global scene with Korea being the current nexus in regards to Starcraft.
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BW will live on forever no matter what new games come and go. People thought the same thing about wc3 but lol look at who has the last laugh. edit:
On January 08 2011 05:32 Chimpalimp wrote: I don't think BW needs SC2 at all (it didn't just 6 months ago, why would it need it now?). If blizz just suddenly shut down B.net cuz SC2 failed, they would be the a rather stupid company. Why would company alienate a fanbase and customers they already hold, merely out of spite? Its just like like saying if the iPad fails, apple will discontinue the ipod. Just because diablo 2 doesn't really sell anymore doesn't mean they are shutting down online diablo...
I believe SC2 is a threat to BW, not because its a competing RTS, but because the game is supposed to be the replacement of BW. Non gaming companies are more likely to sponser SC2 because it is more flash and up-to-date than BW. Thus SC2 will most likely have larger tourneys with bigger prize pools. This entices BW players that could be the future Flash, to just go to SC2 because its easy money. This will over time likely weaken BW overall.
I don't think its a 1 way street where one cannot exist with the other. But I do believe that the article is wrong in the points mentioned above.
I think the best thing for e-sports is for the community to establish several games under its core structure (CS 1.6, Quake, BW, etc.), and not remove said games because a newer flashier version comes out. this is a very good post as well.
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I sure hope that sc2 does not die out. It is a great game that is still young and the game is changing so often in strategies. New maps I think would add new variety though and spice up the games. Or maybe all of the foreigners that love sc2 (TL.net!) should do a mass travel to the GSL finals and show some support! Woo!
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On January 08 2011 02:51 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 02:47 kamikami wrote:On January 08 2011 01:50 FrostOtter wrote: Also, Korea can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. You guys should really stop using that argument since it's not true at all. Not just Korea but the whole east Asia region (except Australia) is still sticking to BW (and War3 and AoE). The main reason is Sc2's high price, high system requirement and no LAN support. Sorry about that, I meant "the whole east Asia region (except Australia)" can keep BW. The rest of us will be living in the present. WOW you are ignorant. Idk what you mean "living in the present". So if blizzard releases wc4, will you just all of a sudden ditch sc2? If the only reason you play it is because its current, than that sounds pretty likely.
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Well. fans think BW and SC2 could exist both at the same time but blizzard tries to kill bw asap, the reasons are obvious. More BW progamers will play SC2 it will become even more popular, lots of people just watch BW matches because one of the big names is playing it - viewer counts skyrocket whenever Boxer or Nada plays in the GSL. Broodwar will die the only question is how long will it take for Blizzard to finally kill it. I dont think Kespa or anyone could do anything if Blizzard is going to charge ridicilous amounts for the television rights. They will shutdown the BW servers as well, they always did that when they released a newer game, i remember that they shut down the diablo 1 servers like 2-3 years after diablo 2 was released and the same will happen to the BW servers its inevitable in like 2-3 years they will just shut them down. Not a big deal, since there is Lan and Iccup servers one might say but when they shut down the servers they kinda kill off fans too...
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I don't think they were talking about Blizzard taking revenge on the BW community if SC2 failed. I think they were talking about what it would mean for BW if SC2 failed directly.
In other words, Blizzard poured how much money into the advertisement and development of SC2? If they for some reason have a dead game on their hands, how will they recoup costs? Blizzard, and in my opinion Activision, has a vested business interest in having a stronger hand in the money of the esports surrounding their game. They wouldn't kill BW, but they would definitely revamp it in order to put themselves closer to the center instead of Kespa. It would just move the interest of Blizzard from SC2 to BW.
Also, I have read people saying BW peaked already in the Korean e-sports scene. If that is so, then "keeping BW" alive indefinitely would be a nice thing to do, but not very economical in the long run I don't think. Especially considering it is already an 11 year old game with 11 year old software with no real growth prospects.
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I sure hope that sc2 does not die out.
Why do people say things like that? It isn't going anywhere for a long time. The expansions alone will keep it relevant for quite some time. It has sold millions of copies, and is still going strong in sales(#3 best selling game during the holidays, just behind WoW expansion and Sim3).
In other words, Blizzard poured how much money into the advertisement and development of SC2? If they for some reason have a dead game on their hands, how will they recoup costs?
They have already recouped their costs by selling 3 million copies of the game in like the first month. No idea what the figures are at now... 4 million? 5 million? Do you think blizzard makes anything off esports? BW isn't going to kill SC2, or vise versa. People are so wrapped up in their own worlds and really over exaggerate the importance of their own views. How many thousands even millions of younger gamers out there, who hardly know what BW even is are playing SC2?
The GAME WAS ONE OF THE BEST SELLING GAMES OF THE YEAR AND STILL IS ON THE TOP SELLING GAMES LIST MONTHS AFTER RELEASE. The game isn't dieing... it is a massive success. Just because people think it is an eSports failure(which it isn't.. yet) doesn't mean everyone will quit the game. The majority of people who purchase and play SC2 don't care about esports.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On January 08 2011 08:12 FLuE wrote:Why do people say things like that? It isn't going anywhere for a long time. The expansions alone will keep it relevant for quite some time. It has sold millions of copies, and is still going strong in sales(#3 best selling game during the holidays, just behind WoW expansion and Sim3). Show nested quote +In other words, Blizzard poured how much money into the advertisement and development of SC2? If they for some reason have a dead game on their hands, how will they recoup costs? They have already recouped their costs by selling 3 million copies of the game in like the first month. No idea what the figures are at now... 4 million? 5 million? Do you think blizzard makes anything off esports? BW isn't going to kill SC2, or vise versa. People are so wrapped up in their own worlds and really over exaggerate the importance of their own views. How many thousands even millions of younger gamers out there, who hardly know what BW even is are playing SC2? The GAME WAS ONE OF THE BEST SELLING GAMES OF THE YEAR AND STILL IS ON THE TOP SELLING GAMES LIST MONTHS AFTER RELEASE. The game isn't dieing... it is a massive success. Just because people think it is an eSports failure(which it isn't.. yet) doesn't mean everyone will quit the game. The majority of people who purchase and play SC2 don't care about esports.
This is exactly the problem, the majority does not care about Esports, so you can have incredibly high sales, the game itself or the ladder won't die. But the E-sports scene/pro side has potential of dying simply because it is not as interesting as a spectator ship, rather then playing it.
Millions of people play WoW, yet the pvp arena system is a joke of an E-sport and is barely alive anywhere but MLG. Sales are not a good representative of the pro scene. (I know its a stretch comparing an MMO to a RTS, but you get my point)
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sc2 dies? im not sure what people are expecting esports to become. let it be a niche. sc2 and big sc2 tournaments will only grow, its so early in the games lifespan to think that since it hasn't exploded, that its dying.
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i think the main concern is BW has lasted aslong as it has because it has a great base in south korea unless that happens again or happens somewhere else sc2 will fail. simply because most foreigners are bandwagon hoppers and ship jumpers.
"whats that? a new call of dooty?"
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Millions of people play WoW, yet the pvp arena system is a joke of an E-sport and is barely alive anywhere but MLG. Sales are not a good representative of the pro scene. (I know its a stretch comparing an MMO to a RTS, but you get my point)
Which is exactly my point, people in this thread over and over are making comments about SC2 dying.. or failing based on people attending a GSL event? They are equating the success of eSports to the game. It is 2 different subjects.
People just need to discuss the eSport side of it.. and if that will work. Making general comments like "if SC2 fails...." is just dumb especially when all the proof is showing the game is massively successful regardless of anything having to do with esports.
i think the main concern is BW has lasted aslong as it has because it has a great base in south korea unless that happens again or happens somewhere else sc2 will fail. simply because most foreigners are bandwagon hoppers and ship jumpers.
Except that is 100% false. BW hasn't lasted as long as it has because of the pro scene or Korea are you serious? I use to hop on and play BW from time to time over the past 10 years because it was fun, not because SlayerS_Boxer won another tournament. Do you think the people that are on BW playing game after game of Big Game Hunters care about some Koreans watching eSports? I think you way overestimate the important of eSports in a games success. If there was no such thing as eSports SC2 will still be around for quite a while.
The fact is, and the reason BW was great and why SC2 will be great and go on for a long time is because you can just hop on have fun and sign off. The best feature of BW and SC2 was that it offers a ton of variety in short bursts and people like that. You can ladder, you can play customs, you can do single player, you can do money maps, DOTA etc. You can take the game as serious or as casual as you want and not feel like you are being left behind. Unlike say an MMO where you have to dedicate tons of hours or a FPS which can be a lot of the same over and over, SC and BW both offered a ton of variety that appealed to a wide range and requires little time to have fun. It has nothing to do with eSports.
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On January 08 2011 05:09 Deadlyfish wrote: Oh, and i think Sc2 is doing fine in Korea :D
Not really. I'm working on another translation at the moment, and god damn, Koreans love asking this question nowadays: "Did SC2 really fail in Korea?"
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On January 08 2011 08:42 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +i think the main concern is BW has lasted aslong as it has because it has a great base in south korea unless that happens again or happens somewhere else sc2 will fail. simply because most foreigners are bandwagon hoppers and ship jumpers.
Except that is 100% false. BW hasn't lasted as long as it has because of the pro scene or Korea are you serious? I use to hop on and play BW from time to time over the past 10 years because it was fun, not because SlayerS_Boxer won another tournament. Do you think the people that are on BW playing game after game of Big Game Hunters care about some Koreans watching eSports? I think you way overestimate the important of eSports in a games success. If there was no such thing as eSports SC2 will still be around for quite a while. The fact is, and the reason BW was great and why SC2 will be great and go on for a long time is because you can just hop on have fun and sign off. The best feature of BW and SC2 was that it offers a ton of variety in short bursts and people like that. You can ladder, you can play customs, you can do single player, you can do money maps, DOTA etc. You can take the game as serious or as casual as you want and not feel like you are being left behind. Unlike say an MMO where you have to dedicate tons of hours or a FPS which can be a lot of the same over and over, SC and BW both offered a ton of variety that appealed to a wide range and requires little time to have fun. It has nothing to do with eSports.
well i disagree with that but it's just an opinion i guess
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We can all live in peace! Why not enjoy both games? Both have their own charms.
Sort of off-topic. but the GSL should just be rounds of elimination. Its much better to understand for people who just tune in to enjoy a game and see their favourite player then to see a chart full of rocket science.
Besides that, The GSLTeams should do it like BW does it. Makes it feel like a sport.
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People just want SC BW in HD The game was so diferent that it didnt work.... xD
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I think the article is very, very wrong about the source of hate. The reason BW fans "hate" GSL is a result of the Blizzard-KeSPA controversy. Many fans, including myself, feel rather strongly that Blizzard would not have made a decision to push so hard on KeSPA if not for the misguided notion that they could put progaming under their thumb (and, through this power, push old fans onto new games).
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GSL is just poorly available. The fact that you need a PC, an internet connection and the gomTV player doesn't help its cause.
Also with so many games going around in SC2 and in BW its hard for the fans to come on these "low priority" ceremonies and matches.
I don't think that both games can co-exist, its just not possible and one game will eat the other popularity.
Having Boxer and Nada may have spiked some interest but there needs to be some rivalries between players. For example Nestea vs marineking rivalry or fruitdealer vs ogsMC.
Also spreading out the league would help, having 4 tournaments in 4 months is way too much and stagnation kicks in.
Changing up the map pool will also help and having a team based league also.
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On January 07 2011 16:31 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:48 udgnim wrote: The opening GSL ceremonies is more a really bad decision than a failure.
MBC or OGN could try to have some type of opening ceremony for MSL/OSL and I don't think it could draw 500+ people.
people care about finals or games between big names. they care much less for a ceremony to announce the people who have qualified for the tournament. I agree, I think they should scale back on several things until the game is more mature. - No gigantic opening ceremony! - Make Ro8 bo3 and semis Bo5, its just too many games when there are still so many mismatches. Also, map imbalance becomes an issue when you have to play 7 games, and they dont have their own map pool. Would be my first two changes I guess. Maybe slow down the pace a little too, having a game a day is a lot when there arent really many big names yet.
and jinro wins this thread with the most constructive answer
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I don't understand why it would be so impossible to have both BW and SC2 exist alongside eachother. As far as I am aware, Starcraft isn't the only e-sports game out there. There's counterstrike, halo, WoW, god knows what. Are all of those dead to rights because Brood War already exists? I think the world can handle more than one e-sports game, just saying.
I understand that the Starcraft name/brand encompassing two very different games with their own pro circuits could cause some confusion, but I don't think it's enough to cause a life-or-death struggle between the two.
As for if one game must fall, I pick Brood War. If anything, the game is played out. I must admit I'm not a huge follower of the BW scene, but can anyone really name something truly innovative that happened in the BW pro scene in the last two or three years? I'm not talking about "Dragoon on 23 instead of 25", I'm talking radical new playstyles, the way we currently see/saw with SC2 and experienced way back in BW.
Simply put: when it gets the right additions and fixes it needs to become an equal to BW, SC2 has so much more potential for new stuff, exciting stuff and a large viewership than the 12-year old BW that is, in my opinion, way past its prime. The lower entry barrier that exists currently can funnel new players into the game that would never have attempted to in BW, as well. Those lowly players might evolve into the Jaedongs of tomorrow.
There are some 8-12 new units still to be revealed in HotS and LotV, who knows what the game will evolve into and all the cool things that they can bring into the game. Many top players are still struggling with the most basic stuff such as constant chronoboosting in lategame, warp prisms are still largely untouched (especially in large battles) - there is just so much left to discover in SC2 that frankly, I'd rather watch that game unfold than watch the same refined strategies from BW over and over.
Note: I really do think BW has it's place, and rightfully so. Even when Sc2 is out, I still play occasionally. However, BW has had a heck of a run and truth be told, I'd like to see things shaken up a bit.
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So much mental masturbation. It's really just about money. Eventually you will see interest shifting to SC2, but you cant really expect that to happen in the first one or two years of SC2. Be patient.
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Seriously.. SC2 will grow with time. BW will fade away... If it's not already gone (exept Korea of course).
There you go.
And BTW, theres 2 expansion coming so the game will change alot (for the best).
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On January 08 2011 07:31 gen.Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 06:43 FrostOtter wrote:On January 08 2011 05:16 wxwx wrote:On January 08 2011 04:36 Chill wrote: Does Korea matter to the average person? If we end up with OSL/MSL in Korea, and SC2 has MLG and other tournaments with the same prize pool, is that really a failure? I love Korean BW, but I've never understood why Korea is viewed as a barometer for success when it's a pretty small percentage of SC2 players. They don't really do anything special that anyone else can't do in another country. Because as far as e-sports goes, Korea paves the way. The Western scene is developed enough for pro-gamers to live comfortably, whereas in Korea they can. If you ask any pro-gamer whether they'd rather play in OSL finals versus MLG, almost all of them will pick OSL, given the same prize pool. Great feeling to be appreciated by 50,000 people compared to 500. No, it doesn't pave the way. Korean esports hurts Western esports, because then our players become dedicated to going to Korea and supporting their scene instead of growing a scene over here. It is like every one shopping at Wal-Mart and then wondering why small businesses don't succeed, or worse, complaining about Wal-Mart and still shopping there. That is why I completely do not support the Korean scene. I don't watch the games, I don't subscribe, nothing. Which is not to say that I have a problem with Korea and its esports, but I do have a problem when Korean esports come at the expense of our esports. That's why I was so upset (as much as you can be upset over video games) to hear that the EG team was trying to move to Korea. Korean esports doesn't come at the expense of our esports... If we had a league I think everyone would watch it, Koreans would too. We don't have a league. I agree that if we had a league everyone would watch it. The question is, how exactly are we supposed to have a league when we send all of our players to Korea to play in theirs?
Korean esports doesn't come at the expense of our esports, but our participation in Korean esports does.
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I don't think either game has much influence over the other's popularity or whether or not they live or die.
Like the article said, there's other esport games, albeit smaller than bw. There was never much rivalry between BW and War3 either.
Most if not all of the bitterness arises from the way Blizzard has handled the SC2 launch, the lawsuits and what have you. It just came off as supreme arrogance on their part, what is there to like about that?
At the end of the day, if people want to watch one of the games, they will watch. Despite all the backroom drama the leagues are still going on, and so is GSL. If the game is an entertaining esport people will tune in. Likewise if it isn't entertaining the viewership will reflect that.
If SC2 fails, we don't really need to look to external factors. Sure they play a part, but ultimately if people like something they'll watch.
And if BW wanes and dies, like one day eventually it has to, hopefully there is a worthy game to pick up the torch
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They're doing too much, too early, too fast. GSL 1 won, and everyone was excited about fruit dealer and people. It was one of the spotlights of GSL and probably the reason why GSL was so popular afterwards.
Then GSL 2, epic finishing match between Nestea and Foxor. So 2 epic GSLs, and then GSL3, some idiot guy cheesed his way to the top. They should've stopped this immediately. There should be rules to stop this kind of play. And what happened? 4-1 victory, completely utter ownage.
Before the smoke from GSL2 even settled, we were onto GSL 3. I found that incredibly tiring to watch. This whole convulted version for GSL4 is now way too messy. Class A, Class S, what gives a crap what do these classes even mean nobody knows. They're trying to expand the GSL into a multiclass sport but they don't have the manpower or the viewer interest to do such a thing.
To be brutally honest, eSports is never going to spin up in the west, basically because of culture. Can you imagine college girls rooting for Boxor? I can't. Can you imagine girls pinning up posters of Idra in their rooms? I seriously cannot. You need a completely 180 in western culture for eSports to have any standing.
eSports lives and dies in Asia, it will never become as big here as it is in Asia unless the west completely changes the way it's behaved in the last 3000 years.
I think Blizzard failed making SC2 an eSports game. There is no community in the new SC2. Even starting with chat channels. The main screen of SC2 is a boring news screen. They should've focused on clans, guilds and chat channels first, then created an RTS around that.
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I hope both live, but I gotta be honest. I'm pretty bored with the code S groups, it's not nearly as exciting as the straight up 64 man tournament. They needed to wait, SC2 scene isn't big enough for the code S format to do really well. With that said, I think if bw dies, sc2 will live, but bw won't live forever whether sc2 lives or dies.
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On January 07 2011 13:43 puppykiller wrote:
Would Blizzard ever destroy the BW servers out of rage that sc2 fails? They would be attacking their own fans, it's absurd. you can still play war2BNE on bnet , why would they remove the servers? not to mention war3 has more players than brood war on bnet.
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On January 08 2011 10:19 kidd wrote: I hope both live, but I gotta be honest. I'm pretty bored with the code S groups, it's not nearly as exciting as the straight up 64 man tournament. They needed to wait, SC2 scene isn't big enough for the code S format to do really well. With that said, I think if bw dies, sc2 will live, but bw won't live forever whether sc2 lives or dies.
I have a feeling this group system is gonna end up being beneficial for the final stages of the tournament. I was just now reviewing group winners and I see no real all in/cheese player going through. I think this bo1 group system has elevated risks of all-ining too highly, thus players who normally have been cheesing a lot are not, and are losing. I'm sure the final stages of GSL4 are gonna be amazing, if BoxeR and NaDa's games are any indication.
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On January 08 2011 08:08 idonthinksobro wrote: Well. fans think BW and SC2 could exist both at the same time but blizzard tries to kill bw asap, the reasons are obvious. More BW progamers will play SC2 it will become even more popular, lots of people just watch BW matches because one of the big names is playing it - viewer counts skyrocket whenever Boxer or Nada plays in the GSL. Broodwar will die the only question is how long will it take for Blizzard to finally kill it. I dont think Kespa or anyone could do anything if Blizzard is going to charge ridicilous amounts for the television rights. They will shutdown the BW servers as well, they always did that when they released a newer game, i remember that they shut down the diablo 1 servers like 2-3 years after diablo 2 was released and the same will happen to the BW servers its inevitable in like 2-3 years they will just shut them down. Not a big deal, since there is Lan and Iccup servers one might say but when they shut down the servers they kinda kill off fans too...
You guys realise bw has LAN right? Righhht?
Like iccup, is not a blizzard ladder/league.
You don't have to accept updates to bw, you can just play that particular version howerver long you like. Blizzard cannot do more to harm the game than it already has regardless of what people say.
For goodness sake, they're like suing everyone in the bw esports business already..>_>
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On January 08 2011 10:31 aupstar wrote:
For goodness sake, they're like suing everyone in the bw esports business already..>_> It is almost like they don't like the way in which their property is being used.
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On January 08 2011 10:13 wankey wrote: They're doing too much, too early, too fast. GSL 1 won, and everyone was excited about fruit dealer and people. It was one of the spotlights of GSL and probably the reason why GSL was so popular afterwards.
Then GSL 2, epic finishing match between Nestea and Foxor. So 2 epic GSLs, and then GSL3, some idiot guy cheesed his way to the top. They should've stopped this immediately. There should be rules to stop this kind of play. And what happened? 4-1 victory, completely utter ownage.
Before the smoke from GSL2 even settled, we were onto GSL 3. I found that incredibly tiring to watch. This whole convulted version for GSL4 is now way too messy. Class A, Class S, what gives a crap what do these classes even mean nobody knows. They're trying to expand the GSL into a multiclass sport but they don't have the manpower or the viewer interest to do such a thing.
To be brutally honest, eSports is never going to spin up in the west, basically because of culture. Can you imagine college girls rooting for Boxor? I can't. Can you imagine girls pinning up posters of Idra in their rooms? I seriously cannot. You need a completely 180 in western culture for eSports to have any standing.
eSports lives and dies in Asia, it will never become as big here as it is in Asia unless the west completely changes the way it's behaved in the last 3000 years.
I think Blizzard failed making SC2 an eSports game. There is no community in the new SC2. Even starting with chat channels. The main screen of SC2 is a boring news screen. They should've focused on clans, guilds and chat channels first, then created an RTS around that.
I agree, Blizzard's whole notion was around sc2 was individual play and minimal interaction. They were forced into creating chat rooms by the sc2 community. In interviews they even stated that the level of interaction required is just a gg at the end of the game. You'd think that after creating WoW they'd understand how critical social interaction is to a game.
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On January 08 2011 10:34 FrostOtter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 10:31 aupstar wrote:
For goodness sake, they're like suing everyone in the bw esports business already..>_> It is almost like they don't like the way in which their property is being used.
The reverse is true. They love it and want a big piece of the action. That's why they're trying to kill the bw scene, so that sc2 can prosper and make blizzard the sole authority in what would probably be the most popular rts esports(there isn't really any other rts that's worth watching really).
To think, if they really wanted sc2 to prosper, they'd just make deals with kespa and sc2 would become much bigger than it is now in korea. These people have the tv channels, and the knowhow to do this! I'd even go so far as to say that bw would suffer greatly because of it.
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from a WC3 fan's point of view, I dont even see the logical relation between "SC2 dying/failing as an esport" and "GSL attracting too few NON-PAYING spectators". First, let's state the obvious: these guys don't even pay, may they be 50 or over 9000, it doesn't matter who's there to see it live, they are out of the equation anyways. Imagine you've just discovered about a new sport and you'd like to see if you actually enjoy it before you go there, for example, boxing : the first 1 or 2 years you'll most likely watch matches on your TV/internet stream and maybe later , if you enjoyed it,you will attend a live event. Second, even if it dies, SC2 is not only about the "korean" scene : for sure, if this league dies, the korean scene will take a blow, only the better players will be able to continue to live as progamers, and let's be honest, Dreamhack showed to the world that only the top koreans are on the same level as the top europeans anyway. The foreign scene will take...no hit at all. The WC3 scene has been alive for about 8 years without relying on korean tournaments at all, only euopean ones and chinese ones in the end, which are so much more entertaining to watch because seriously, who is not annoyed to see 1 match every 32nd of the month...the format, from a WC3 fan POV's, is so much better in west. So now, stop saying it's going to die, you have no idea how awesome and big this might actually become: progaming is not korea, progaming is not BW, and it's going to be huge in the western world with ESWC/WCG/BlizzCon/KODE5/MLG/DreamHack/nameanyotherlegendarytournament.
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LOL.
Whats the viewership numbers.
I bet the online viewership is INCREDIBLE right now for sc2. Just on a restream I was watching, there were over 1200 people watching.
ONE restream.
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On January 08 2011 11:02 mytent wrote: LOL.
Whats the viewership numbers.
I bet the online viewership is INCREDIBLE right now for sc2. Just on a restream I was watching, there were over 1200 people watching.
ONE restream.
that really isn't that good.
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On January 08 2011 10:52 aupstar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 10:34 FrostOtter wrote:On January 08 2011 10:31 aupstar wrote:
For goodness sake, they're like suing everyone in the bw esports business already..>_> It is almost like they don't like the way in which their property is being used. The reverse is true. They love it and want a big piece of the action. That's why they're trying to kill the bw scene, so that sc2 can prosper and make blizzard the sole authority in what would probably be the most popular rts esports(there isn't really any other rts that's worth watching really). To think, if they really wanted sc2 to prosper, they'd just make deals with kespa and sc2 would become much bigger than it is now in korea. These people have the tv channels, and the knowhow to do this! I'd even go so far as to say that bw would suffer greatly because of it. Why shouldn't they want a piece of the action? They own the rights to it? It doesn't help anyone's case that anytime anyone talks about an alternate ladder the discussion immediately goes to pirating.
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On January 08 2011 11:04 MavercK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 11:02 mytent wrote: LOL.
Whats the viewership numbers.
I bet the online viewership is INCREDIBLE right now for sc2. Just on a restream I was watching, there were over 1200 people watching.
ONE restream. that really isn't that good.
Lol. thats one random restream. Imagine all restreams combined.. PLUS official GOM streams.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
On January 08 2011 11:21 mytent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 11:04 MavercK wrote:On January 08 2011 11:02 mytent wrote: LOL.
Whats the viewership numbers.
I bet the online viewership is INCREDIBLE right now for sc2. Just on a restream I was watching, there were over 1200 people watching.
ONE restream. that really isn't that good. Lol. thats one random restream. Imagine all restreams combined.. PLUS official GOM streams.
you are looking at it from a foreigner's view,its the Koreans that we are worried about.
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I find it crazy that people seem to be forgetting that it was on a Sunday night two days after New Years Eve... I'm surprised they got even 500, as that is certainly more than the total amount of non-hungover people in Seoul.
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I disagree with the article... It makes no sense. Why would Blizzard stop Battle.net-Servers only because SC2 fails in Korea? Why would this ever happen? Blizzard even runs Warcraft2-Servers, even though no one is still playing it. So I have no doubt, that Bnet1 will still live for a long time. But it has really nothing to do with SC2 at all!
And furthermore I would say it is indeed SCBW or SC2. I cant see any synergy effects, like they are mentioned in the article. Both games have the same potential group of players and viewers and sponsors and therefore are in direct competition. Why dont they give any valid reasons why SC1 and SC2 would benefit from each other?
I would be happy like crazy if GSL failed and BW pro scene would grow again, but I dont think it will happen. SC2 will win the "war" in the end... even though I doubt SC2 pro scene will ever be so great like SCBW pro scene has been all the years.
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Is it Blizzard doing this or is it more of Activision's side of things? When Kotick spoke of looking for new ways to charge for content, this seems like an avenue they would be interested in.
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What's this about Blizzard running the BW servers? The BW servers are either run by some dudes in Russia, or you run one yourself. BW does not need Blizzard's continued support at all. But SC2 doesn't need Korea's support either.
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On January 08 2011 11:02 mytent wrote: LOL.
Whats the viewership numbers.
I bet the online viewership is INCREDIBLE right now for sc2. Just on a restream I was watching, there were over 1200 people watching.
ONE restream.
That isnt very much. The KT vs SKT ProLeague match in round 1 had over 4000 people watching, JUST on Craton's stream.
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I am unconcerned with the thoughts and opinions of other people regarding whether SC2 is meeting expectations yet or not. There is a sea of grey area and useless factors involved. So much foolish pride and drama is playing into the entire thing. The only thing important is that people keep playing BW to its fullest, and people keep playing SC2 to its fullest. Either one will stagnate if the play isnt constantly being pushed forward to the point where certain individuals are credited with being amazing at X or Y gameplay element. Then you make those top tier players duke it out for money and pride. The result is what makes games like SC better than other games, and even better than other sports. Everyone needs to jsut play to be the best no matter what is being said or what public "opinion" is. If the play is amazing the respect and admiration of fans will follow. BW has too much amazing shit to be denied by true fans of RTS. And SC2 has such obvious potential for amazing shit that any true fan of RTS should know already that it is coming. Its not going to happen over night. You cant forge team rivalries, player rivalries, team history, player history, and even truly AMAZING play in a couple months. Most of the players playing now and following sc2 now will probably no longer even be interested by the time SC2 really hits its stride where the top tiers of players are absolutely impenetrable to the second tier. Thats why i dont care what the average korean opinion is of sc2 currently. Anyone not under the impression that sc2 is going to take time to get to where it should be isnt thinking with their brain and probably doesnt even understand RTS life cycle very well.
BW is too good to throw away. SC2 needs to be played alot more before it is at that level. Whether GSL is the launchpad for sc2 esports or merely a future inhabitant of the landfill that will be sc2s early history, means nothing ultimately. Whats important is that people keep playing SC2 like their lives depend on it, and fans need to stop being babies and letting pride and prejudice affect their opinions and actions. People need to focus more on the game and less on the drama surrounding it and wondering when esports is going to "arrive".
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There's no doubt that BW is being played on a whole 'nother level right now. Even my roommate, who never played BW seriously (too young at the time) and came to SC2 as a world top-ranked DOTA player, has to admit that nobody is doing in any game what BW pros are doing in BW today. We had a conversation about this very topic and it somehow came up that it was in fact the BW pros that were getting the real respect in Korea today, not the GSL winners, and he was incredulous at first because, as an SC2 player/fan he mostly only exposed himself to the good news about SC2, such as the big prize pool for GSL etc. However after a little journey through youtube and some my old proleague/msl/osl torrents he was like '... damn' and started asking me when the real pros were going to be getting into SC2 lol.
For myself, after putting a great deal of thought into it, I have to agree with the general sentiment, raised time and again, that the BW units are just more 'interesting' than the SC2 units on the whole. SC2 does have some very interesting new units, for example sentries and blink stalkers, and it also has a lot of units which in my opinion had a ton of potential to be interesting but due to poor execution have not yet quite met that potential, which would include reapers, void rays, colossus, medivacs, ravens, thors, motherships, infestors, roaches, banshees etc... but there are also some downright poor units which imo just do not have a good place in the game, especially the hellion. Everyone is united in their dislike of that stupid unit and with good reason; it replaced the vulture which was a fucking awesome unit in every way, with a dumbass dune buggy thingy with a shitty-looking flamethrower. I mean seriously, it even looks clumsy and awkward as hell the way it has to stop when it shoots for no apparent reason and the flame itself looks like it was drawn with an orange crayon.
All that said, I still have high hopes for HOTS. The bottom line is that the multiplayer aspect at least has been greatly greatly improved in every blizzard game by the expansion. BW was a fucking amazing expansion and compared to it, SC1 just feels lame and unfinished. SC2 right now also feels lame and unfinished compared to BW, but I still believe that after the two expansions, SC2 will feel as good as BW did. There is plenty--PLENTY of room for improvement, but that gives me encouragement, not despair. I'm sure that the new units will mostly be cool and make a great addition to the multiplayer dynamic, and I'm hopeful that new special abilities/upgrades for existing units will rescue them--or at least most of them--from being potentially cool but poorly executed.
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As far as I'm concerned, Starcraft 2 isn't actually out yet.
What we're playing now is just a teaser for when all 3 expansions are out and the game is complete.
Then we can talk about which game is succeeding and which isn't.
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On January 08 2011 15:07 TedJustice wrote: As far as I'm concerned, Starcraft 2 isn't actually out yet.
What we're playing now is just a teaser for when all 3 expansions are out and the game is complete.
Then we can talk about which game is succeeding and which isn't.
yes, a great way to put it.
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Well, just watched the winners league Fanta vs Flash. What an epic game. I don't think BW is dying anytime soon. It really has those tense, exciting moments.
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On January 08 2011 12:05 ZeroChrome wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 11:02 mytent wrote: LOL.
Whats the viewership numbers.
I bet the online viewership is INCREDIBLE right now for sc2. Just on a restream I was watching, there were over 1200 people watching.
ONE restream. That isnt very much. The KT vs SKT ProLeague match in round 1 had over 4000 people watching, JUST on Craton's stream.
People can go watch officially at GOM.. you have to watch restreams of Proleague. so it makes sense restreams would be higher because there's no official place to go. My GOM player won't load for more than 20 seconds at a time atm (which sucks cos it worked fine last season) but the restream I use has 2-3k viewers all the time. Not bad considering these are only the people who can't get the official FREE stream to work, and this is only one of many re-streams. Until GOM releases Korean stream views and International stream views, everyone is clutching at straws trying to prove points that aren't there. From Both the Anti BW camp and the Anti SC2 camp.
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BW still got some years left.. there are still tournaments, sponsors, contracts, and serious gamers who prefer BW to sc2. As for SC2, more and more koreans are switching over or at least trying it out for the time being, as the game becomes more balanced and expansions add interesting units, i hope that it will be enough to keep the players happy.
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On January 08 2011 16:01 nka203 wrote: BW still got some years left.. there are still tournaments, sponsors, contracts, and serious gamers who prefer BW to sc2. As for SC2, more and more koreans are switching over or at least trying it out for the time being, as the game becomes more balanced and expansions add interesting units, i hope that it will be enough to keep the players happy.
SC2 is falling in popularity and many Koreans who bought the hype are switching back. That's the whole point of this thread, that SC2 is failing in Korea. The fallback argument will always be, wait for the expansions or that SC2 doesn't need Korea but if this trend continues noone in Korea will be interested in the expansions, and also non-Korean countries don't have the infrastructure nor attitude towards games to get anything like Korea off the ground.
Also, a rule of thumb is you never exchange a surety for an unknown. The fact that SC2 is failing in Korea is not ameriolated by if's and but's speculating about the future.
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Don't try to predict things you think will happen with SC2 in Korea. Because more than likely you are wrong. And of course BW is being played at a whole different level and the games are more exciting. It's been out a LONG TIME, the game is figured inside and out. BW games aren't a one sided slaughter like most of SC2 is right now, but that is because SC2 is way to young.
Once SC2 is more balanced and figured out it will become more popular in Korea.
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On January 08 2011 16:24 Zumms wrote: Don't try to predict things you think will happen with SC2 in Korea. Because more than likely you are wrong. And of course BW is being played at a whole different level and the games are more exciting. It's been out a LONG TIME, the game is figured inside and out. BW games aren't a one sided slaughter like most of SC2 is right now, but that is because SC2 is way to young.
Once SC2 is more balanced and figured out it will become more popular in Korea. Except right now, SC2 is failing in Korea.
Sure, it's young. But Blizzard's poor decisions (translating the article at the moment) as well as few other factors prevented SC2 from achieving its 'expectations'
One example: PC Bangs in Korea were asked for monthly payment if they wanted to have SC2 in their business. Compare this to BW where PC Bangs only had to buy one package that lasted lifetime. In addition, PC Bang owners aren't that rich. They didn't want to risk their money getting SC2 and upgrading their PCs at the same time.
Thus many PC Bang owners decided to take a step back and see what happens in the near future.
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On January 08 2011 10:08 FrostOtter wrote: Korean esports doesn't come at the expense of our esports, but our participation in Korean esports does.
To be frank everything outside of Korea is peanuts. It hurts but fact of the matter is you don't have an "esports" to be threatened about. If DOTA isn't even a legitimate esport what the hell makes you think SC2 has a chance? Sc2 needs korea and Glizzard knows it.
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On January 08 2011 09:47 DarQraven wrote: As for if one game must fall, I pick Brood War. If anything, the game is played out. I must admit I'm not a huge follower of the BW scene, but can anyone really name something truly innovative that happened in the BW pro scene in the last two or three years? I'm not talking about "Dragoon on 23 instead of 25", I'm talking radical new playstyles, the way we currently see/saw with SC2 and experienced way back in BW.
This just shows you know practically nothing about BW. The last two or three years you're saying?
How about the Bisu build changing the PvZ paradigm? Or the Flash build and how it made Protoss choose Arbiters over Carriers? Valkionic? Lategame mech transition from SK Terran? 14 CC? 12 Nexus? 3 base Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra vs. Protoss? Lategame ZvZ? TvT turning from a campfest into one of the most dynamic match-ups? Valkyries in TvT? Flash playing TvZ like TvP or the whole arsenal of different mech builds vs. Z? Fake mech into Goliath/MM push?
Those are just from the top of my head (save for 3 base Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra, the name of which I wasn't really sure of). To say nothing truly innovative happened in BW lately is extremely ignorant. Says a lot about your "not being a huge follower of the BW scene." Seems like you haven't followed it at all, buddy, no offence.
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eSport popularity directly depends on the number of players. if you cripple the amount of players by
* various fees * no lan * no illegal copies * no custom ladders * crippled custom map system
the game will not take off as esport.
i started bw with a cracked copy, i got a real license to be able to play battle.net 2 years later. before i played a lot on lan parties etc..
Regardless of any arguing about unpayed copies, they are necessary to achieve a real broad player base. (E.g. spontanous tourney at the office :-) impossible with SC2, but that's the way the player base grows)
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On January 08 2011 20:32 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: eSport popularity directly depends on the number of players. if you cripple the amount of players by
* various fees * no lan * no illegal copies * no custom ladders * crippled custom map system
the game will not take off as esport.
i started bw with a cracked copy, i got a real license to be able to play battle.net 2 years later. before i played a lot on lan parties etc..
Regardless of any arguing about unpayed copies, they are necessary to achieve a real broad player base. (E.g. spontanous tourney at the office :-) impossible with SC2, but that's the way the player base grows)
lol at no illegal copies...
ye why dont they just make the game free? bet they would get more ppl -.-'
i dont think sc2 is failing i think sc2 players are failling
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On January 08 2011 20:51 GizmoPT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 20:32 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: eSport popularity directly depends on the number of players. if you cripple the amount of players by
* various fees * no lan * no illegal copies * no custom ladders * crippled custom map system
the game will not take off as esport.
i started bw with a cracked copy, i got a real license to be able to play battle.net 2 years later. before i played a lot on lan parties etc..
Regardless of any arguing about unpayed copies, they are necessary to achieve a real broad player base. (E.g. spontanous tourney at the office :-) impossible with SC2, but that's the way the player base grows) lol at no illegal copies... ye why dont they just make the game free? bet they would get more ppl -.-' i dont think sc2 is failing i think sc2 players are failling 
like it or not, a big part of BW's success was its avaiability more or less for free. only players will enjoy viewing ingame VODs. I know blizzard needs to make money, however the crowd does not care, so 50 bucks + massive restrictions = less players = less viewers = niche eSport
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On January 08 2011 20:51 GizmoPT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 20:32 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: eSport popularity directly depends on the number of players. if you cripple the amount of players by
* various fees * no lan * no illegal copies * no custom ladders * crippled custom map system
the game will not take off as esport.
i started bw with a cracked copy, i got a real license to be able to play battle.net 2 years later. before i played a lot on lan parties etc..
Regardless of any arguing about unpayed copies, they are necessary to achieve a real broad player base. (E.g. spontanous tourney at the office :-) impossible with SC2, but that's the way the player base grows) lol at no illegal copies... ye why dont they just make the game free? bet they would get more ppl -.-' i dont think sc2 is failing i think sc2 players are failling  it's funny but true actually. I wouldn't have played SC:BW if i couldnt get it illegally first. Later on, as i became fan of the game i bought it twice, as well az the SC2, but first i needed to get into it. It might seem strange for someone from US for exaple but mid/east europe and various other places buying games isnt that popular unless they know what they are gonna buy is good.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
to be completely honest,given that the fact that SC2 never really took off in Korea,it has done surprisingly well so far mostly due to Blizzard and their Strong arm tactics.I think if blizzard leaves e-sports to the community and actually focuses on how to make their game better,they can still make it back.
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Biggest bullshit article I've read since the one where they completely destroyed nada because he made the switch.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
On January 08 2011 22:12 Arcanefrost wrote: Biggest bullshit article I've read since the one where they completely destroyed nada because he made the switch.
how so?
please elaborate.not that I disagree in any way.
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there are alot of players who will still watch BW games exclusively or both SC2 and BW. don't think BW will die so easily just because SC2 came out. SC2 means, surely that BW will have less fans, less support but not dead. The ones who will not earn as much money from it will suffer the greatest losses, so don't feel sorry for a bunch of corporatists who own unearned cash from the work and talent of honest progamers.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49507 Posts
On January 08 2011 22:23 MindRush wrote: there are alot of players who will still watch BW games exclusively or both SC2 and BW. don't think BW will die so easily just because SC2 came out. SC2 means, surely that BW will have less fans, less support but not dead. The ones who will not earn as much money from it will suffer the greatest losses, so don't feel sorry for a bunch of corporatists who own unearned cash from the work and talent of honest progamers.
Did they not work hard to make the game?Have they not earned the money that they have made from it?
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On January 08 2011 22:16 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 22:12 Arcanefrost wrote: Biggest bullshit article I've read since the one where they completely destroyed nada because he made the switch. how so? please elaborate.not that I disagree in any way.
I have to agree with the poster.. the idea that Blizzard will remove battle.net is ludicrous. Even if they do, there is still ICCUP and LAN and I'm sure Korea can put together something fine for Brood War. But they won't, especially with Diablo 3 coming up.
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like it or not, a big part of BW's success was its avaiability more or less for free. only players will enjoy viewing ingame VODs. I know blizzard needs to make money, however the crowd does not care, so 50 bucks + massive restrictions = less players = less viewers = niche eSport
WTF is wrong with some people in this thread? BW sold 9.5 million copies of the game. SOLD. BW's success was at a time when pirating software wasn't nearly as easy as it is now. It is crazy to think the game was popular because it was free/pirated? I bought a copy. My friends all bought copies.
People in this thread are coming up with crackpot theories that they have nothing to back it up with at all.
"SC2 won't succeed because there aren't free copies." Um... it sold 3 million copies of the game in 1 month, and was the #3 best selling game through the holiday season. How is it failing? People are buying the game, MILLIONS of them. People in this thread are talking like when you see an MMO die. The first month you get this big bubble then when everyone's free month is over there is always a mass exodus and the game is a ghost town.
Not the case with SC2 at all. It is months after release and the game is still one of the top selling PC games, 2nd only to it's WoW counterpart for the most part. It is rare these days for a comp game to stay a top selling for more than a month, much less what 6 months after release? It is still selling strong with expansions to come, more patches, etc.
50 bucks + massive restrictions = less players = less viewers = niche eSport
How can you even say something like that with no facts at all to back it up? People are buying the game in droves. People are enjoying the game. The problem is getting the millions that bought the game to want to watch it as an eSport, the problem isn't the success of the game in general. I've said that 10 times in this thread already. This isn't an SC2 is failing thread, THE GAME ISN'T FAILING by the exact definition of fail. If it is failing as an eSport so far(which it isn't either) then fine.
By your theory, since WoW has so many subscribers world wide it should be the biggest eSport. More players = more viewers = bigger eSport right? you just said it. WoW is a horrible eSport.
Honestly, right now it is just too early to tell. So there have been some negatives with the GSL. There have also been some huge successes for the GSL, like SlayerS first game getting millions of VOD hits, and having a few exciting finals, FD was a hit..etc. There have been as many successful moments for the GSL as fail moments.
Further, I'd say internationally there have been very few unsuccessful SC2 esport moments. MLGs were a hit, Blizzcon was widely viewed, Dreamhack was a hit... there are great and highly sponsored well organized tournaments all around the world this coming year.
If people want to disagree fine. But quit talking out of your ass when the facts show otherwise. Or at the least say something like "it is my opinion..." but quit just blatantly making things up based off of personally skewed opinions and perceptions.
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On January 08 2011 22:34 FLuE wrote: quit just blatantly making things up based off of personally skewed opinions and perceptions. Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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Sweden33719 Posts
WTF is wrong with some people in this thread? BW sold 9.5 million copies of the game. SOLD. BW's success was at a time when pirating software wasn't nearly as easy as it is now. It is crazy to think the game was popular because it was free/pirated? I bought a copy. My friends all bought copies.
People in this thread are coming up with crackpot theories that they have nothing to back it up with at all. For every legally bought copy, you probably have 3 pirated ones in China ALONE (totally random number, but you get the point Im trying to make).
Its also a lot harder for someone who doesnt own SC2 to play it at a Pc bang as I understand, you never actually had to own BW if you had a pc cafe nearby... More work for SC2.
I dont think the argument you are dismissing is as baseless as you seem to think it is, though I also dont think SC2 is gonna die in Korea anytime soon.
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On January 07 2011 13:49 ohN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:37 Megaliskuu wrote: Lol fomos is so pro-sc2, BW doesn't need sc2, if sc2 died BW would just go on as normal. Although I for one would like to see both leagues do well (kinda). This. I'm perfectly fine with SC2 becoming really big in korea, it's not a bad game. Just don't touch BW. Yeah, I definitily agree. I would like to see SC2 become big, but I don't understand why so many people try to attach SC2 to BW so much. I know both of their names start with Starcraft, but they're different games. They don't need to bother each other
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For every legally bought copy, you probably have 3 pirated ones in China ALONE (totally random number, but you get the point Im trying to make).
I'm not saying people don't pirate the game. But it is crazy to think a game is only successful based on the ease of which it is pirated. It isn't like all games can't be pirated and they still fail.
I just think there is no basis at all to say BW was somehow popular as an eSport because of pirated versions of the game? I mean it is just a crazy connection to make, and to me seems like it is irrelevant to the conversation. WoW is popular and that involves paying as you go. At the end of the day, people will find a way to get the money to get the game, but if they can get it free they will.
This was reported also a while back anyway : With at least three million copies sold as of last count, StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty is doing just fine for itself, but that doesn't mean pirates aren't getting the game the old-fashioned, illegal way.
"According to TorrentFreak, a BitTorrent enthusiast site, StarCraft II has been illicitly downloaded via BitTorrent 2.3 million times. The download file's huge 7.19 GB size makes it the most data sent via BitTorrent for a single file -- 15.77 petabytes.
Again, just seems completely baseless to say "SC2 isn't doing as well as an eSport because they game isn't as easily pirated as BW." Not when the game is selling like crazy/downloading like crazy. There are more than enough people who own SC2...
Once again I go back to my point, it isn't about the number of people playing SC2, it is about getting a larger percentage of the current players to want to watch eSports from the people who already own the game, and number that keeps growing.
This is where Blizzard could help. When you log into b.net it would be cool if there was a big link that said, "Watch IDRA vs. JINRO play in the GSL!" Then an article telling you where and when to see it. Trying to get the growing player base to watch the eSport is where the efforts should be put, the game itself is growing and selling perfectly fine.
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On January 08 2011 22:16 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 22:12 Arcanefrost wrote: Biggest bullshit article I've read since the one where they completely destroyed nada because he made the switch. how so? please elaborate.not that I disagree in any way.
If blizzard stops supporting sc2, they basically kill all the profits they could make with the expansions and sc3,sc4,etc... I don't think they'll ever do that, and certainely not to keep a 13 year old game going. The games can coexist together, but bw is getting so old that inevitably it will stop pretty soon. If my income depended on the success of bw, I'd hate sc2 too, but the way it's getting disrespected is just a goddamn shame. Unless anyone finds it righteous to call the gsl a failure...
It's one of the biggest esports scenes since bw, and it will be the biggest scne ever relatively soon. We have t give sc2 the time it needs to grow, I bet that in ten years we'll laugh at the skill level the likes of mc had during these early stages. Sc2 will be huge, no doubt about it form my part.
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On January 08 2011 22:29 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 22:23 MindRush wrote: there are alot of players who will still watch BW games exclusively or both SC2 and BW. don't think BW will die so easily just because SC2 came out. SC2 means, surely that BW will have less fans, less support but not dead. The ones who will not earn as much money from it will suffer the greatest losses, so don't feel sorry for a bunch of corporatists who own unearned cash from the work and talent of honest progamers. Did they not work hard to make the game?Have they not earned the money that they have made from it?
Kespa did not make the game, Blizzard did Kespa is the one proffiting from the work of players Boxer, Bisu, Flash, etc. BroodWar brings cash into Kespa's pockets, not Blizzard's.
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On January 09 2011 00:55 MindRush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 22:29 BLinD-RawR wrote:On January 08 2011 22:23 MindRush wrote: there are alot of players who will still watch BW games exclusively or both SC2 and BW. don't think BW will die so easily just because SC2 came out. SC2 means, surely that BW will have less fans, less support but not dead. The ones who will not earn as much money from it will suffer the greatest losses, so don't feel sorry for a bunch of corporatists who own unearned cash from the work and talent of honest progamers. Did they not work hard to make the game?Have they not earned the money that they have made from it? Kespa did not make the game, Blizzard did Kespa is the one proffiting from the work of players Boxer, Bisu, Flash, etc. BroodWar brings cash into Kespa's pockets, not Blizzard's. Blizzard made the game with piece of shit maps that would never sustain competitive play.
Blizzard made the game without big-name sponsors willing to support E-Sports.
Yes, Blizzard made the original game, but Kespa made it the BW that we still care about.
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On January 09 2011 00:55 MindRush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2011 22:29 BLinD-RawR wrote:On January 08 2011 22:23 MindRush wrote: there are alot of players who will still watch BW games exclusively or both SC2 and BW. don't think BW will die so easily just because SC2 came out. SC2 means, surely that BW will have less fans, less support but not dead. The ones who will not earn as much money from it will suffer the greatest losses, so don't feel sorry for a bunch of corporatists who own unearned cash from the work and talent of honest progamers. Did they not work hard to make the game?Have they not earned the money that they have made from it? Kespa did not make the game, Blizzard did Kespa is the one proffiting from the work of players Boxer, Bisu, Flash, etc. BroodWar brings cash into Kespa's pockets, not Blizzard's.
If it wasn't for the Korean esport side of BW, the game would be as popular as games like AoE2 or WC2 are these days, pretty much.
The prime reason why blizzard was able to create so much hype around sc2 is the fact that Korea made StarCraft into something way beyond a mere game, largely thanks to KeSPA, whether you like them or not. KeSPA greatly perpetuated the growth of BW, while blizzard never really cared after they released WC3 and later on WoW.
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If starcraft 2 succeeds in SKorea I will be very surprised. From the beginning blizzard made many wrong decisions handling SC2. BW is a 10 year old proven game. SC2 is new but unbalanced, easier, less spectator worthy and unproven. In Korea I don't see how SC2 can just win the day over night. Also time is a factor, how long will blizz take to get SC2 to BW level? The safe route would have been making a BW 2 with better graphics and new units with small intelligent changes to game mechanic over time.
Blizzard went for different, but different doesn't mean better. And I enjoy watching SC2, but BW is more entertaining. It doesn't matter that SC2 is some months old...I got 2 options and one clears comes out on top. This is same mentality the Koreans have. Instead of trying to emulate the things BW did right, blizz tried to get creative, and I don't even see the originality.
In addition, I don't think it pleases Koreans for blizzard to push it's self into their culture like they're doing. Even if Blizz has IP rights, BW is a culture in Korea, they should handle the situation there delicately.
Lastly, BW had freedom. Blizzard right off the bat assumed SC2 would sell well, every one would love it, and is heavily dictating the game. No Lan support for one....etc.
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It's always better to have too few seats than too many. A room that seats 50 people that ends up having 75 jammed into it seems more impressive than a 5,000 seat arena that only has 500 in it. Really the is the only mistake GOM made. SC2 itself is fine.
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On January 08 2011 23:46 Arcanefrost wrote: It's one of the biggest esports scenes since bw, and it will be the biggest scne ever relatively soon.
What I don't get is that people are claiming that SC2 is the biggest esport since BW but they aren't giving credit that BW is what makes the SC2 scene so big right now. Without BW, would the sc2 pro have the skill they have right now to try to "entertain" people? I certainly don't think so. You wouldn't have people like Day[9] giving his daily(also some of the popularity of sc2 is getting.) since he wouldn't have much info on the game also.
On topic: I think 500 people for the opening ceremony is not that bad. It's not like an MSL or OSL ceremony where people know their favorite's personality and attend to see what those awesome guys(firebathero for example) will do(trash talk) there.
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On January 08 2011 23:10 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +For every legally bought copy, you probably have 3 pirated ones in China ALONE (totally random number, but you get the point Im trying to make). I'm not saying people don't pirate the game. But it is crazy to think a game is only successful based on the ease of which it is pirated. It isn't like all games can't be pirated and they still fail. I just think there is no basis at all to say BW was somehow popular as an eSport because of pirated versions of the game? I mean it is just a crazy connection to make, and to me seems like it is irrelevant to the conversation. WoW is popular and that involves paying as you go. At the end of the day, people will find a way to get the money to get the game, but if they can get it free they will. This was reported also a while back anyway : With at least three million copies sold as of last count, StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty is doing just fine for itself, but that doesn't mean pirates aren't getting the game the old-fashioned, illegal way.
"According to TorrentFreak, a BitTorrent enthusiast site, StarCraft II has been illicitly downloaded via BitTorrent 2.3 million times. The download file's huge 7.19 GB size makes it the most data sent via BitTorrent for a single file -- 15.77 petabytes.Again, just seems completely baseless to say "SC2 isn't doing as well as an eSport because they game isn't as easily pirated as BW." Not when the game is selling like crazy/downloading like crazy. There are more than enough people who own SC2... Once again I go back to my point, it isn't about the number of people playing SC2, it is about getting a larger percentage of the current players to want to watch eSports from the people who already own the game, and number that keeps growing. This is where Blizzard could help. When you log into b.net it would be cool if there was a big link that said, "Watch IDRA vs. JINRO play in the GSL!" Then an article telling you where and when to see it. Trying to get the growing player base to watch the eSport is where the efforts should be put, the game itself is growing and selling perfectly fine.
I don't think anyone is saying that pirated copies were the only factors behind BW's success? Do you agree that it was at least partially responsible for it?
My first copy of BW was also a pirated version that one of my friends installed on my computer. A whole lot of my friends were playing BW and almost every single one of them had pirated versions. Many parents weren't willing to buy their kids BW because of its initial 18+ tag in Korea and also because of their general reluctance in buying video games for their kids. The fact that it was easy to get this game for "free" as well as the availability of LAN and pirated servers exposed many more people to BW and made it extremely popular.
Every PC Bangs had BW installed due to the cheap cost in doing so. The PC Bang culture developed partially thanks to BW's popularity and BW's popularity also benefited quite a bit from its availability in PC Bangs. Then the Korean eSports scene began to grow.
You bring up the fact SC2 is also being illegally downloaded, but those copies do not allow multiplayer, and campaigns by themselves do not keep people playing the game for very long, not to mention that SC2's campaign did not receive the highest praises to put it nicely.
I am by no means advocating pirating. I really am not. However, those pirated BW copies did definitely contribute to pioneering of BW's successful eSport scene in Korea.
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The link between SC2 succeeding only if BW succeeds was pretty weak. Although I'd like that to be the case, I don't think the article makes a strong enough case to suggest it. A lot of people from War 3 are also jumping onto SC2, and just because a lot of people jumping onto SC 2 that are good are BW players, let's remember that a lot of these players rarely if ever touch BW a lot as far as playing is concerned.
Meh. Just playing devil's advocate here.
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On January 09 2011 05:04 KingAce wrote: If starcraft 2 succeeds in SKorea I will be very surprised. From the beginning blizzard made many wrong decisions handling SC2. BW is a 10 year old proven game. SC2 is new but unbalanced, easier, less spectator worthy and unproven. In Korea I don't see how SC2 can just win the day over night. Also time is a factor, how long will blizz take to get SC2 to BW level? The safe route would have been making a BW 2 with better graphics and new units with small intelligent changes to game mechanic over time.
Blizzard went for different, but different doesn't mean better. And I enjoy watching SC2, but BW is more entertaining. It doesn't matter that SC2 is some months old...I got 2 options and one clears comes out on top. This is same mentality the Koreans have. Instead of trying to emulate the things BW did right, blizz tried to get creative, and I don't even see the originality.
In addition, I don't think it pleases Koreans for blizzard to push it's self into their culture like they're doing. Even if Blizz has IP rights, BW is a culture in Korea, they should handle the situation there delicately.
Lastly, BW had freedom. Blizzard right off the bat assumed SC2 would sell well, every one would love it, and is heavily dictating the game. No Lan support for one....etc.
Sc2 is the best rts since bw, and like it or not but sc2 is the future.
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On January 09 2011 07:50 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 05:04 KingAce wrote: If starcraft 2 succeeds in SKorea I will be very surprised. From the beginning blizzard made many wrong decisions handling SC2. BW is a 10 year old proven game. SC2 is new but unbalanced, easier, less spectator worthy and unproven. In Korea I don't see how SC2 can just win the day over night. Also time is a factor, how long will blizz take to get SC2 to BW level? The safe route would have been making a BW 2 with better graphics and new units with small intelligent changes to game mechanic over time.
Blizzard went for different, but different doesn't mean better. And I enjoy watching SC2, but BW is more entertaining. It doesn't matter that SC2 is some months old...I got 2 options and one clears comes out on top. This is same mentality the Koreans have. Instead of trying to emulate the things BW did right, blizz tried to get creative, and I don't even see the originality.
In addition, I don't think it pleases Koreans for blizzard to push it's self into their culture like they're doing. Even if Blizz has IP rights, BW is a culture in Korea, they should handle the situation there delicately.
Lastly, BW had freedom. Blizzard right off the bat assumed SC2 would sell well, every one would love it, and is heavily dictating the game. No Lan support for one....etc. Sc2 is the best rts since bw, and like it or not but sc2 is the future.
That's an opinion at best. I enjoy watching both sc2 and BW matches, but as of right now, sc2 games are far and away less entertaining to watch (and I even paid for the vods/hq service for the gsl) than BW games because of all the one-basing and maybe 2-3 things going on at once as opposed to BW's massive maps with tons of bases and things happening everywhere at once. I watch an SC2 game by pros and it's not really all that far off from what I can do without playing nearly as much, except they know the more subtle timings and micro/macro a bit better. With BW, there's such a huge difference between an A-teamer and B-teamer, let alone someone who plays a lot more casually that it's just a lot more awe-inspiring to watch, as a casual player. I'm not saying that sc2 will never reach that same point, but it is my opinion that blizzard will need to change the game in some way with patches or expansions to get it there. Again, that is my opinion as a viewer and player of both games.
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On January 07 2011 15:04 QuothTheRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2011 13:47 supernovamaniac wrote:On January 07 2011 13:43 puppykiller wrote: I agree with mega... its like they exscpet the readers to be dumb enough to think bw depends on sc2 just becuase they say it does. Wrong. If SC2 dies but BW lives, what will Blizzard try to do? Just let KeSPA run the tournaments? The end result is not guaranteed in this situation. However, Blizzard will take much more severe action if its league dies. For starters, Blizzard (Gretech) is already suing KeSPA, OGN, and MBC for copyright violations. I suppose it's possible that they could do more than that, but it's not as if Blizzard is currently being benevolent towards the professional BW scene. Another point that's worth some consideration is that Blizzard still has two expansion packs that it wants to release. If the SC2 competitive scene flounders sometime in the next year, pulling a huge "fuck you" revenge move would greatly damage their expansion pack sales in Korea. Some of that ill will might spill over and hurt their WoW subscription numbers, as well (though that's more speculative). At any rate, if at some point in the future Starcraft 2 is already dead in Korea, Blizzard has almost nothing to gain at that point by taking extra measures to kill BW, and they would probably damage the reputation of the company as well as future game sales in Korea. Bobby Kotick would have a fit!
Oh, they can pull some revenge jackassery and still sell millions. Well at least in America, we have CEOs and such making public statements outright mocking or taunting THEIR OWN CUSTOMERS and still turn a huge profit. Like a woman to an abusive boyfriend.
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On January 08 2011 22:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +WTF is wrong with some people in this thread? BW sold 9.5 million copies of the game. SOLD. BW's success was at a time when pirating software wasn't nearly as easy as it is now. It is crazy to think the game was popular because it was free/pirated? I bought a copy. My friends all bought copies.
People in this thread are coming up with crackpot theories that they have nothing to back it up with at all. For every legally bought copy, you probably have 3 pirated ones in China ALONE (totally random number, but you get the point Im trying to make). Its also a lot harder for someone who doesnt own SC2 to play it at a Pc bang as I understand, you never actually had to own BW if you had a pc cafe nearby... More work for SC2. I dont think the argument you are dismissing is as baseless as you seem to think it is, though I also dont think SC2 is gonna die in Korea anytime soon.
That's China, they pirate everything. 
But I do agree, that the current model for SC2 isn't very PC cafe friendly.
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for blizzard: 1) sc2 didnt have chat chanels, and in the patch 1.2 the chat channels are bad 2) sc2 = no lan 3) multicomand, auto mining, auto split 4) sc2 in korea is +18 5) you should try europe or north america 6) you can only play in 1 server 7) only 1 acount 8) ladder system sucks 9) you should try to pay some bw progamers to play sc2 show matchs
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On January 09 2011 05:48 vesicular wrote: It's always better to have too few seats than too many. A room that seats 50 people that ends up having 75 jammed into it seems more impressive than a 5,000 seat arena that only has 500 in it. Really the is the only mistake GOM made. SC2 itself is fine.
This.
BW is an established scene with a monolithic organization replete with sponsors, employees, and skirted by a huge amount of fans. That said, there's really no reason to say that one cannot be a fan of BW and SC2. Those that think that BW fans MUST flock to SC2 within a year of the game's release in order for the game to be a success are painfully misinformed about human behavior and BW's history as an e-sport as well.
Brood War wasn't as popular barely five months after it's release as SC2 is now. Starcraft had TWO expansions (Insurrection and Retribution) that came before Brood War which more or less failed, and yet Brood War is still a resounding success. Nothing as monumental as BW is created slowly, and it never goes away slowly.
Anyone looking to pass that sort of judgement on SC2 really doesn't seem fit to make the decision, given a their lack of context.
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Agree. I never thought that way before. Both should live and prosper. Long live BW and SC2 going strong.
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On January 09 2011 08:02 Thermia wrote: That's an opinion at best. I enjoy watching both sc2 and BW matches, but as of right now, sc2 games are far and away less entertaining to watch (and I even paid for the vods/hq service for the gsl) than BW games because of all the one-basing and maybe 2-3 things going on at once as opposed to BW's massive maps with tons of bases and things happening everywhere at once. I watch an SC2 game by pros and it's not really all that far off from what I can do without playing nearly as much, except they know the more subtle timings and micro/macro a bit better. With BW, there's such a huge difference between an A-teamer and B-teamer, let alone someone who plays a lot more casually that it's just a lot more awe-inspiring to watch, as a casual player. I'm not saying that sc2 will never reach that same point, but it is my opinion that blizzard will need to change the game in some way with patches or expansions to get it there. Again, that is my opinion as a viewer and player of both games. Not going to respond to your point since it's been made about a billion times, but please stop qualifying stuff as 'opinion'. Of course it's his opinion, and of course it's your opinion. If we were looking for facts we'd go to liquipedia. Here on the forums we discuss opinions.
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On January 09 2011 05:48 vesicular wrote: It's always better to have too few seats than too many. A room that seats 50 people that ends up having 75 jammed into it seems more impressive than a 5,000 seat arena that only has 500 in it. Really the is the only mistake GOM made. SC2 itself is fine. Agreed, the opening wasn't any kind of special event either with any K-POP or big name players (e.g. Boxer, Nada). 500 live viewers is PLENTY, they just made the wrong choice in renting out the gymnasium.
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I was just in GOMTV live chat with koreans since i understand korean.. most were saying that sc2 is still very popular, but GSL just isn't. a few have mentioned that the new format is retarded and that GSL was only fun to watch at first, but now just watch online.
also just to cite statistics.. playxp.com/sc2 has similar number of threads/posts and people who vote everyday on sc2 than a couple months back..
I think we're just worried that sc2 might die because of one flop at the GSL gymnasium, sc2 is still very alive in korea and growing in my opinion
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I never understood die hard fans of either game, they seem to belive that one game must destroy the other. They can both co-exist(and live in harmony etc) . Other then the general theme and that they are both RTS games, they really dont have that much in common gameplay wise.
E: im a tard :<
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I've said it all along and I'll say it again.
You can't kill a game. You can't kill a fanbase. If someone where to shut off the Battle.net servers today for Brood War ICCUP would just end up with a bigger traffic load. People the players the fans that love the game will always love that game. So long as people play it, love it and enjoy it the game can't die. This goes for any game SC2 included.
I hate the term because it's so silly to think that Blizzard, Kespa, or anyone could do it. More importantly why can't they be side by side? I think that's the point they are trying to get across.
If either games where to just shut down the leagues it'd be horrid for everyone. No one wins if one dies. I mean unless you enjoy the suffering of others and gloating over others failures.
The only way to win, is to both play together.
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On January 09 2011 13:16 Ghost_Sniper wrote: for blizzard: 1) sc2 didnt have chat chanels, and in the patch 1.2 the chat channels are bad 4) sc2 in korea is +18 8) ladder system sucks 9) you should try to pay some bw progamers to play sc2 show matchs
1) It's your opinion 4) It is not +18 8) your opinion 9)Kespa won't let them play SC2 showmatch
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.......Too many cheeser and fast game. GSL need to banned all close map and add big map in force people to play mid or late game. 6 pools, marines bunker rush, and cannon rush is lame to watch because even a bad player can execute that. ........ mid to late game is different when weak players fall short. You'll see how horrible most cheeser A class is at mid to late game compare to S class.
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The biggest mistake Blizzard made was GSL in Korea. If GSL was held in different cities in Europe/NA the crowd would have been much bigger. Just let the xenophobic, betting-scandal-shakened korean bw-scene alone(die?) and simultaniously offer the big names like Nada or Boxer contracts to play in GSL.
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On January 09 2011 08:02 Thermia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 07:50 Arcanefrost wrote:On January 09 2011 05:04 KingAce wrote: If starcraft 2 succeeds in SKorea I will be very surprised. From the beginning blizzard made many wrong decisions handling SC2. BW is a 10 year old proven game. SC2 is new but unbalanced, easier, less spectator worthy and unproven. In Korea I don't see how SC2 can just win the day over night. Also time is a factor, how long will blizz take to get SC2 to BW level? The safe route would have been making a BW 2 with better graphics and new units with small intelligent changes to game mechanic over time.
Blizzard went for different, but different doesn't mean better. And I enjoy watching SC2, but BW is more entertaining. It doesn't matter that SC2 is some months old...I got 2 options and one clears comes out on top. This is same mentality the Koreans have. Instead of trying to emulate the things BW did right, blizz tried to get creative, and I don't even see the originality.
In addition, I don't think it pleases Koreans for blizzard to push it's self into their culture like they're doing. Even if Blizz has IP rights, BW is a culture in Korea, they should handle the situation there delicately.
Lastly, BW had freedom. Blizzard right off the bat assumed SC2 would sell well, every one would love it, and is heavily dictating the game. No Lan support for one....etc. Sc2 is the best rts since bw, and like it or not but sc2 is the future. That's an opinion at best. I enjoy watching both sc2 and BW matches, but as of right now, sc2 games are far and away less entertaining to watch (and I even paid for the vods/hq service for the gsl) than BW games because of all the one-basing and maybe 2-3 things going on at once as opposed to BW's massive maps with tons of bases and things happening everywhere at once. I watch an SC2 game by pros and it's not really all that far off from what I can do without playing nearly as much, except they know the more subtle timings and micro/macro a bit better. With BW, there's such a huge difference between an A-teamer and B-teamer, let alone someone who plays a lot more casually that it's just a lot more awe-inspiring to watch, as a casual player. I'm not saying that sc2 will never reach that same point, but it is my opinion that blizzard will need to change the game in some way with patches or expansions to get it there. Again, that is my opinion as a viewer and player of both games. That's simply an issue with the players. Right now, there are a lot of REALLY bad players in both Code S and Code A. As the new format starts to take effect, we're going to start seeing the better players rise to the top, and the worse players sink.
So far, the only super huge upset in Code S has been Fruitdealer in Up-and-Down matches, but even then, he still has 2 Bo3 matches he can prove himself in (then again, his player has been looking a lot weaker recently...just my opinion).
In a couple months, the GSL is going to be a lot more stable, and I'm sure that we'll start to see a few more macro matches. The new maps, that are coming SOON™ should also contribute to better games. Almost everyone in the GSL threads is enjoying games on Shakuras Plateau, and with more large maps, I'm guessing the matches will just get better and better.
Honestly, the skill difference necessary between BW and SC2 really is trivial. No one is mechanically perfect in SC2, or even close. Honestly, I think that as players get more comfortable in the long game, we'll start to see more multi-pronged attacks, and map-wide action. BoxeR vs. Hyperdub was a perfect example. People were insulting the observer, but honestly, the main problem was that there was simply too much action going on at once, and the communication between the observer and Tastosis was subpar at best.
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On January 09 2011 20:29 dnosrc wrote: The biggest mistake Blizzard made was GSL in Korea. If GSL was held in different cities in Europe/NA the crowd would have been much bigger. Just let the xenophobic, betting-scandal-shakened korean bw-scene alone(die?) and simultaniously offer the big names like Nada or Boxer contracts to play in GSL. I think that this is an excellent idea.
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I want to see some actual evidence for the claim that SC2 is a failure in Korea. If we're going to draw conclusions about the success of the entire event due to there being 500 people at the opening ceremony, then consider that in the early days of the GSL there might have been just a few people at Mok-Dong studio watching the non-finals matches live. Now there are always at least 20 or 30 people, even for the Code A matches. If I had to guess the real truth, it would be that the popularity has been gaining.
Anyways, this kind of speculation is really quite worthless. Unless we get financial numbers then we're not going to know anything about the success of the GSL and of Starcraft 2 in Korea.
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Attendance at events like this is all about marketing and promotion, it has little to do with the quality of the show.
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If Koreans want BW to win out it needs to be updated with SC2 style graphics IMO...you then have a balanced game with 21st century graphics/gameplay.
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What's the point of necroing this thread? Pretty sure it's already been established that GSL code S has not been a failure as exaggerated in the OP.
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On February 18 2011 10:11 CPTHammer.464 wrote: If Koreans want BW to win out it needs to be updated with SC2 style graphics IMO...you then have a balanced game with 21st century graphics/gameplay.
Graphics aren't important to a game's long term success. Why do you think everyone prefers 1.6 over Source?
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I'm getting really sick and tired of seeing this shit. For one its pure speculation that SC2 is going to die in Korea, GSL is still happening and GOM has never said anything about reducing the number of tournaments or lowering the prize pool or anything like that. Don't BW openings/finals have concerts that bring a ton of people to them?
Second, Korea isn't the center of the universe and even if GSL ends that won't affect anything going on anywhere else. MLG, ESL, etc aren't all just going to end because Korea isn't paying attention to SC2.
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On February 18 2011 10:59 Gudeldar wrote: I'm getting really sick and tired of seeing this shit. For one its pure speculation that SC2 is going to die in Korea, GSL is still happening and GOM has never said anything about reducing the number of tournaments or lowering the prize pool or anything like that. Don't BW openings/finals have concerts that bring a ton of people to them?
Second, Korea isn't the center of the universe and even if GSL ends that won't affect anything going on anywhere else. MLG, ESL, etc aren't all just going to end because Korea isn't paying attention to SC2. First, this article is ages old. Back when this was somewhat a genuine worry 'cause GSL attendance was ridiculously low. The reason was likely due to bad production value and marketing, which GOM has been very very good about rectifying.
Second. This article is ages old.
EDIT: I don't even get why it got bumped. The bumping post made no sense either...
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broodwar fits better with the oriental culture (imo). The harder the game is, the bigger is the gap between kids that play for 14 hours a day and between guys that play 5 hours a day or not even that, I think they love that game and it wont be replaced... which is nice. We will have both sc2 and scbroodwar around the world, what could possibly go wrong ^^
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Bisutopia19158 Posts
It's really interesting to read this article today and compare it to the state of SC2 today. I feel like if there was no date on when this was published someone could assume this was written this week and not know the difference (barring the mention of Kespa). Also, noting the disclaimer at the top, it still stands true today that SC2 has done impressively well in maintaining popularity outside of South Korea. After 8 years some of the struggles in South Korea remain the same such as fostering a new and younger player base and also fighting against the mandatory service clock. However, I think those that have watched SC2 over the past LOTV years have become a stronger and more loyal fan base as scene by great turnouts to GSL events.
Edit: I also don't believe the state of BW now has any impact on the state of SC2 which makes me very happy. The water has very much settled on that discussion and everyone has resolved to enjoy whatever they want to enjoy without getting angry at others with different tastes.
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On January 10 2011 01:26 alexanderzero wrote: I want to see some actual evidence for the claim that SC2 is a failure in Korea. If we're going to draw conclusions about the success of the entire event due to there being 500 people at the opening ceremony, then consider that in the early days of the GSL there might have been just a few people at Mok-Dong studio watching the non-finals matches live. Now there are always at least 20 or 30 people, even for the Code A matches. If I had to guess the real truth, it would be that the popularity has been gaining.
Anyways, this kind of speculation is really quite worthless. Unless we get financial numbers then we're not going to know anything about the success of the GSL and of Starcraft 2 in Korea.
If it didn't manage to capture BW audience, then it is bad.
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Northern Ireland23953 Posts
On October 16 2019 21:52 BisuDagger wrote: It's really interesting to read this article today and compare it to the state of SC2 today. I feel like if there was no date on when this was published someone could assume this was written this week and not know the difference (barring the mention of Kespa). Also, noting the disclaimer at the top, it still stands true today that SC2 has done impressively well in maintaining popularity outside of South Korea. After 8 years some of the struggles in South Korea remain the same such as fostering a new and younger player base and also fighting against the mandatory service clock. However, I think those that have watched SC2 over the past LOTV years have become a stronger and more loyal fan base as scene by great turnouts to GSL events.
Edit: I also don't believe the state of BW now has any impact on the state of SC2 which makes me very happy. The water has very much settled on that discussion and everyone has resolved to enjoy whatever they want to enjoy without getting angry at others with different tastes. I thought it was much more recent when I first skimmed it to be honest, although sickened by the TL conspiracy allowing their writers to necro as they please!
It is nice that the two scenes are a bit less annoyingly antagonistic and things have settled down where one can like both, or either game singularly and have their thing and enjoy it. Of course something is defective in you if you like neither game
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I couldn't see this article being written at all today mainly because the esports landscape today has so many more popular games than back then.
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On October 16 2019 22:33 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 21:52 BisuDagger wrote: It's really interesting to read this article today and compare it to the state of SC2 today. I feel like if there was no date on when this was published someone could assume this was written this week and not know the difference (barring the mention of Kespa). Also, noting the disclaimer at the top, it still stands true today that SC2 has done impressively well in maintaining popularity outside of South Korea. After 8 years some of the struggles in South Korea remain the same such as fostering a new and younger player base and also fighting against the mandatory service clock. However, I think those that have watched SC2 over the past LOTV years have become a stronger and more loyal fan base as scene by great turnouts to GSL events.
Edit: I also don't believe the state of BW now has any impact on the state of SC2 which makes me very happy. The water has very much settled on that discussion and everyone has resolved to enjoy whatever they want to enjoy without getting angry at others with different tastes. I thought it was much more recent when I first skimmed it to be honest, although sickened by the TL conspiracy allowing their writers to necro as they please! It is nice that the two scenes are a bit less annoyingly antagonistic and things have settled down where one can like both, or either game singularly and have their thing and enjoy it. Of course something is defective in you if you like neither game
Never understood the NECRO NECRO NECRO crew.
On the contrary, very interesting to read the article in retrospect.
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On October 16 2019 22:28 zenist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 01:26 alexanderzero wrote: I want to see some actual evidence for the claim that SC2 is a failure in Korea. If we're going to draw conclusions about the success of the entire event due to there being 500 people at the opening ceremony, then consider that in the early days of the GSL there might have been just a few people at Mok-Dong studio watching the non-finals matches live. Now there are always at least 20 or 30 people, even for the Code A matches. If I had to guess the real truth, it would be that the popularity has been gaining.
Anyways, this kind of speculation is really quite worthless. Unless we get financial numbers then we're not going to know anything about the success of the GSL and of Starcraft 2 in Korea. If it didn't manage to capture BW audience, then it is bad. You replied to a post from 8 years ago and then used terrible logic in your response. By that same logic, as people have left the SC2 scene, they should have gone to BW if it wasn’t bad. Very few people went from SC2 to BW unless they were big BW fans/players in the first place. Therefore, BW must be bad.
Or, maybe the two games are different enough that they can appeal to different audiences. Worldwide, SC2 has been far more popular than BW ever was. It is only in Korea where BW was huge and always overshadowed SC2. But honestly, the popularity of LoL in Korea stomped SC2 while suppressing the BW revival, rather than one destroying the other. I guess LoL is just the better game.
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Well I personally hope they both thrive.
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On October 17 2019 05:02 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2019 22:28 zenist wrote:On January 10 2011 01:26 alexanderzero wrote: I want to see some actual evidence for the claim that SC2 is a failure in Korea. If we're going to draw conclusions about the success of the entire event due to there being 500 people at the opening ceremony, then consider that in the early days of the GSL there might have been just a few people at Mok-Dong studio watching the non-finals matches live. Now there are always at least 20 or 30 people, even for the Code A matches. If I had to guess the real truth, it would be that the popularity has been gaining.
Anyways, this kind of speculation is really quite worthless. Unless we get financial numbers then we're not going to know anything about the success of the GSL and of Starcraft 2 in Korea. If it didn't manage to capture BW audience, then it is bad. You replied to a post from 8 years ago and then used terrible logic in your response. By that same logic, as people have left the SC2 scene, they should have gone to BW if it wasn’t bad. Very few people went from SC2 to BW unless they were big BW fans/players in the first place. Therefore, BW must be bad. Or, maybe the two games are different enough that they can appeal to different audiences. Worldwide, SC2 has been far more popular than BW ever was. It is only in Korea where BW was huge and always overshadowed SC2. But honestly, the popularity of LoL in Korea stomped SC2 while suppressing the BW revival, rather than one destroying the other. I guess LoL is just the better game.
Most BW pros did go back, same with Korean BW audience.
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I wonder how well they will both do if Blizzard decided to pullback funding. That's the only thing that really worries me at this juncture.
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On October 17 2019 07:10 Antisocialmunky wrote: I wonder how well they will both do if Blizzard decided to pullback funding. That's the only thing that really worries me at this juncture. SC2 is way more reliant on Blizzard than BW is. BW survived on the community alone from 2012 to 2018, SC2 wouldn't get nearly as much support from the community.
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United States33097 Posts
I do feel like the way it played out is that whatever effect SC2 and BW may have had on each other in terms of playerbase (positive or negative), all that was ultimately insignificant compared to how they were affected by other games in the market. With or without SC2, BW was on a slow decline in Korea since the the 2000's. In SC2's case, not having the shadow of BW at launch may have helped slightly at launch, but ultimately it was bound to get surpassed by other games.
TL;DR: If either SC2 or BW are "dying," it has very little to do with one another.
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On October 17 2019 13:19 Waxangel wrote: I do feel like the way it played out is that whatever effect SC2 and BW may have had on each other in terms of playerbase (positive or negative), all that was ultimately insignificant compared to how they were affected by other games in the market. With or without SC2, BW was on a slow decline in Korea since the the 2000's. In SC2's case, not having the shadow of BW at launch may have helped slightly at launch, but ultimately it was bound to get surpassed by other games.
TL;DR: If either SC2 or BW are "dying," it has very little to do with one another.
Very true. At this point, I don't think there are many people left who would say either game has to "die" in order for the other brother to live.
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France12759 Posts
Yeah, SC2 and BW were fighting each other for the spotlight in 2010, while LoL/MOBAs (and now battle royales) slowly but surely grew behind them before eating them ;;
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On October 17 2019 06:26 zenist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2019 05:02 RenSC2 wrote:On October 16 2019 22:28 zenist wrote:On January 10 2011 01:26 alexanderzero wrote: I want to see some actual evidence for the claim that SC2 is a failure in Korea. If we're going to draw conclusions about the success of the entire event due to there being 500 people at the opening ceremony, then consider that in the early days of the GSL there might have been just a few people at Mok-Dong studio watching the non-finals matches live. Now there are always at least 20 or 30 people, even for the Code A matches. If I had to guess the real truth, it would be that the popularity has been gaining.
Anyways, this kind of speculation is really quite worthless. Unless we get financial numbers then we're not going to know anything about the success of the GSL and of Starcraft 2 in Korea. If it didn't manage to capture BW audience, then it is bad. You replied to a post from 8 years ago and then used terrible logic in your response. By that same logic, as people have left the SC2 scene, they should have gone to BW if it wasn’t bad. Very few people went from SC2 to BW unless they were big BW fans/players in the first place. Therefore, BW must be bad. Or, maybe the two games are different enough that they can appeal to different audiences. Worldwide, SC2 has been far more popular than BW ever was. It is only in Korea where BW was huge and always overshadowed SC2. But honestly, the popularity of LoL in Korea stomped SC2 while suppressing the BW revival, rather than one destroying the other. I guess LoL is just the better game. Most BW pros did go back, same with Korean BW audience. "Most"? How do you figure?
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On October 17 2019 19:16 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2019 06:26 zenist wrote:On October 17 2019 05:02 RenSC2 wrote:On October 16 2019 22:28 zenist wrote:On January 10 2011 01:26 alexanderzero wrote: I want to see some actual evidence for the claim that SC2 is a failure in Korea. If we're going to draw conclusions about the success of the entire event due to there being 500 people at the opening ceremony, then consider that in the early days of the GSL there might have been just a few people at Mok-Dong studio watching the non-finals matches live. Now there are always at least 20 or 30 people, even for the Code A matches. If I had to guess the real truth, it would be that the popularity has been gaining.
Anyways, this kind of speculation is really quite worthless. Unless we get financial numbers then we're not going to know anything about the success of the GSL and of Starcraft 2 in Korea. If it didn't manage to capture BW audience, then it is bad. You replied to a post from 8 years ago and then used terrible logic in your response. By that same logic, as people have left the SC2 scene, they should have gone to BW if it wasn’t bad. Very few people went from SC2 to BW unless they were big BW fans/players in the first place. Therefore, BW must be bad. Or, maybe the two games are different enough that they can appeal to different audiences. Worldwide, SC2 has been far more popular than BW ever was. It is only in Korea where BW was huge and always overshadowed SC2. But honestly, the popularity of LoL in Korea stomped SC2 while suppressing the BW revival, rather than one destroying the other. I guess LoL is just the better game. Most BW pros did go back, same with Korean BW audience. "Most"? How do you figure?
TaekBangLeeSsang all came back.
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On October 17 2019 21:37 zenist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2019 19:16 Puosu wrote:On October 17 2019 06:26 zenist wrote:On October 17 2019 05:02 RenSC2 wrote:On October 16 2019 22:28 zenist wrote:On January 10 2011 01:26 alexanderzero wrote: I want to see some actual evidence for the claim that SC2 is a failure in Korea. If we're going to draw conclusions about the success of the entire event due to there being 500 people at the opening ceremony, then consider that in the early days of the GSL there might have been just a few people at Mok-Dong studio watching the non-finals matches live. Now there are always at least 20 or 30 people, even for the Code A matches. If I had to guess the real truth, it would be that the popularity has been gaining.
Anyways, this kind of speculation is really quite worthless. Unless we get financial numbers then we're not going to know anything about the success of the GSL and of Starcraft 2 in Korea. If it didn't manage to capture BW audience, then it is bad. You replied to a post from 8 years ago and then used terrible logic in your response. By that same logic, as people have left the SC2 scene, they should have gone to BW if it wasn’t bad. Very few people went from SC2 to BW unless they were big BW fans/players in the first place. Therefore, BW must be bad. Or, maybe the two games are different enough that they can appeal to different audiences. Worldwide, SC2 has been far more popular than BW ever was. It is only in Korea where BW was huge and always overshadowed SC2. But honestly, the popularity of LoL in Korea stomped SC2 while suppressing the BW revival, rather than one destroying the other. I guess LoL is just the better game. Most BW pros did go back, same with Korean BW audience. "Most"? How do you figure? TaekBangLeeSsang all came back. Breaking news: Korean Starcraft players have been 7 people all along. The men, using eye patches and artificial facial hair, deceived the general public for years.
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Northern Ireland23953 Posts
On October 17 2019 21:42 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2019 21:37 zenist wrote:On October 17 2019 19:16 Puosu wrote:On October 17 2019 06:26 zenist wrote:On October 17 2019 05:02 RenSC2 wrote:On October 16 2019 22:28 zenist wrote:On January 10 2011 01:26 alexanderzero wrote: I want to see some actual evidence for the claim that SC2 is a failure in Korea. If we're going to draw conclusions about the success of the entire event due to there being 500 people at the opening ceremony, then consider that in the early days of the GSL there might have been just a few people at Mok-Dong studio watching the non-finals matches live. Now there are always at least 20 or 30 people, even for the Code A matches. If I had to guess the real truth, it would be that the popularity has been gaining.
Anyways, this kind of speculation is really quite worthless. Unless we get financial numbers then we're not going to know anything about the success of the GSL and of Starcraft 2 in Korea. If it didn't manage to capture BW audience, then it is bad. You replied to a post from 8 years ago and then used terrible logic in your response. By that same logic, as people have left the SC2 scene, they should have gone to BW if it wasn’t bad. Very few people went from SC2 to BW unless they were big BW fans/players in the first place. Therefore, BW must be bad. Or, maybe the two games are different enough that they can appeal to different audiences. Worldwide, SC2 has been far more popular than BW ever was. It is only in Korea where BW was huge and always overshadowed SC2. But honestly, the popularity of LoL in Korea stomped SC2 while suppressing the BW revival, rather than one destroying the other. I guess LoL is just the better game. Most BW pros did go back, same with Korean BW audience. "Most"? How do you figure? TaekBangLeeSsang all came back. Breaking news: Koream Starcraft players have been 7 people all along. The men, using eye patches and artificial facial hair, deceived the general public for years. Reminds me of that classic preview post, think it was regarding Jaedong carrying his team hard, with a bunch of Jaedong in disguises. Think someone did an homage to it with Taeja too, anyone know what I’m vaguely remembering?
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Bisutopia19158 Posts
On October 17 2019 21:45 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2019 21:42 Ej_ wrote:On October 17 2019 21:37 zenist wrote:On October 17 2019 19:16 Puosu wrote:On October 17 2019 06:26 zenist wrote:On October 17 2019 05:02 RenSC2 wrote:On October 16 2019 22:28 zenist wrote:On January 10 2011 01:26 alexanderzero wrote: I want to see some actual evidence for the claim that SC2 is a failure in Korea. If we're going to draw conclusions about the success of the entire event due to there being 500 people at the opening ceremony, then consider that in the early days of the GSL there might have been just a few people at Mok-Dong studio watching the non-finals matches live. Now there are always at least 20 or 30 people, even for the Code A matches. If I had to guess the real truth, it would be that the popularity has been gaining.
Anyways, this kind of speculation is really quite worthless. Unless we get financial numbers then we're not going to know anything about the success of the GSL and of Starcraft 2 in Korea. If it didn't manage to capture BW audience, then it is bad. You replied to a post from 8 years ago and then used terrible logic in your response. By that same logic, as people have left the SC2 scene, they should have gone to BW if it wasn’t bad. Very few people went from SC2 to BW unless they were big BW fans/players in the first place. Therefore, BW must be bad. Or, maybe the two games are different enough that they can appeal to different audiences. Worldwide, SC2 has been far more popular than BW ever was. It is only in Korea where BW was huge and always overshadowed SC2. But honestly, the popularity of LoL in Korea stomped SC2 while suppressing the BW revival, rather than one destroying the other. I guess LoL is just the better game. Most BW pros did go back, same with Korean BW audience. "Most"? How do you figure? TaekBangLeeSsang all came back. Breaking news: Koream Starcraft players have been 7 people all along. The men, using eye patches and artificial facial hair, deceived the general public for years. Reminds me of that classic preview post, think it was regarding Jaedong carrying his team hard, with a bunch of Jaedong in disguises. Think someone did an homage to it with Taeja too, anyone know what I’m vaguely remembering? That's 100% what Ej_ is referring too.
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/359920-pics-liquid-new-recuits
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