if after so many games your still in silver, it would seem your not learning form your mistakes...
a few of the most important pieces of information i think you need to know are
1) never stop building workers 2) keep your money low 3) dont get supply blocked
if you are just learning build orders without having good mechanics you will lose most macro games.
in the early days of the beta i focused almost entirly on Build orders watching matches for new strats i could execute. I my self constructed several early game timing pushes which got me to the mid diamond level, however if my first push fail i stood a very high chance of losing the game... Some games i would do significant damage and still lose in the end..
I began watching some replays of some truly puzzling losses and noticed that even though i killed 1/2 their scvs in a timing push they would rebuild quickly them while i would sit there on my 18-24 scv count and pump from 4 racks for the rest of the game.
Practising fast expand builds is a good way to get your mechnics down and become more solid. and in general if you haven't expanded by 10 min its pretty much an all in build, something you should try to avoid doing to often.
On January 04 2011 17:53 Poring wrote: Wow, you're really contributing a lot. You might be surprised. I rarely ever get cannonrushed or 6pooled on ladder. What the fuck is 12drone. 2 rax is standard, and so is 4gate, even if I dont like it. Also, I dont think I've cheesed in a single game on ladder (except for one game where I accidentally picked terran (offrace) and I simply 3 rax all-in'd a TvP because hell, I can't play terran). Don't let your anger out by making shitty posts.
lol how do you even get 1k? That's like "I'm about to be demoted" status.
As for watching and analysing my own replays, I have to admit I used to do it, but have basically stopped doing it recently because it seems that either I know immideately what cost me the game (not enough creep spread so couldn't flank/surround enemy army properly, 3rd queen too late so banshee harrass crippled me too badly to recover, things like that) or alternatively I can't figure it out even after I have watched the replay.
for example if you got crippled by a banshee things you should do next game.
- time your lair so it completely slightly before the banshee attack arrived - build that extra queen - suicide an overlord @ around specific timing (when the starport dropped the techlab)
i recently switched to zerg to play around, its useful to have a bunch of timings in your head.
for example 4 gate comes between 6-7 min so up until the 5 min mark i have 4 lings and like 25 drones.
2 base 5-6 warp gate push comes around 9-10 min so up until 8 min i try to pretty much have 4 lings and 40 drones
Sometimes you just dont have enough "stuff" are your queens constantly low energy? watch a replay you lost and count how many seconds you missed in between your larva injects, or simply check your queens energy at the end of the game, theres really no reason it should go above 50 (still not perfect macro)
similarly i have a lot of trouble with getting supply blocked after my recent switch, check how often you get supply blocked.
scouting is the most important make sure you know when the push is coming so you can maximize drone count
On January 04 2011 17:28 Jago wrote: I was just curious to know how much of their sc2 skill people think was learned through long and hard hours of practice and how much was basically natural. I've been reading lately about people who claim to have gotten into Diamond within their first 50-80 games without previous RTS experience and I am trying to figure out of it's just me who is really horribad or if these people are lying. SC2 is also my first serious RTS and 735 league games later (about 600 1v1) I am still in Silver, so if what these people claim is true, it's kinda depressing I guess.
You can improve a shitton by learning stuff. Just ask a high-lvel player to watch some of your replays with you. After that it's taking that knowledge and practising it. Natural talent, I think, only determines how high you can get, not how fast you can get there
simply the criterium "getting into diamond" doesn't mean a lot. You can just geek 3rax build, and get into diamond cos its very OP in relation to it's skill requirement. and of course "smarter" people learn a strategy game faster etc, but a good improvement method will get you far anyhow.
On January 04 2011 18:43 Jago wrote: As for watching and analysing my own replays, I have to admit I used to do it, but have basically stopped doing it recently because it seems that either I know immideately what cost me the game (not enough creep spread so couldn't flank/surround enemy army properly, 3rd queen too late so banshee harrass crippled me too badly to recover, things like that) or alternatively I can't figure it out even after I have watched the replay.
Seriously I don't ever have time to creep spread and I can still win games as zerg, even when I build a lot of hydras. Sounds a little bit like you don't know what you are doing wrong. For me, I practically pause playing the game completely when I've lost a game and didn't know why. There is no need for me to play more and lose to the same thing again if I don't know what it was or how I should deal with it. Playing more games doesn't solve that (might for some ppl, but not for me!), watching the replay 2-3 times and thinking really hard (hey, it's a strategy game!) perhaps even with pen and paper usually solves my problems though.
So... post some replays and maybe we can help you.
Edit:
On January 04 2011 19:03 Kokujin wrote: secret: build orders are too confining. trying to follow build orders is what holds a lot of players back.
Yea I definitely also believe this. There was a thread some time ago where ppl wrote how they reached diamond within 50 games. I think the majority didn't have any specific BO at all.
lol. its really fun to see how many ppl like to talk about themselves instead of trying to answer op's question.
on topic. i think is something inbetween. you cant really just jump into sc2, expecting to be able to hold yourself against the top. thats why people play alot - to get better, but sometimes you understand something that changes your style/bo/etc faster than another person, which leads to a better understanding of the game and again raising your skills.
People that get to diamond quickly put in effort to get good at the game. They read teamliquid, read strategy, and practice 1v1 and not wasting time in customs/ team games.
Starcraft 2 is my first try at an RTS. I did play a ton of customs in BW but I don't think it really transfers. Most of my gaming has been FPS.
I started playing Sc2 in the last few weeks of beta phase 1. I believe I placed in silver there. With phase 2 I went placed in gold then jumped to diamond after 40-50 games.
Nowadays I play 2.5-2.7k diamond players (still haven't finished my pool ^^). For me, I think a huge part of the improving is simply thinking about the game and areas where you need improvement. When I have some spare mental time, walking down the street say, think about issues you've had in recent games. Consider ways which you can improve your game strategically and mechanically. Producing a well thought out mindset before laddering is so important because it is so much harder to do under pressure.
Other than that its simply about spending time playing and becoming accustomed to the use of a mouse and keyboard and developing muscle memory and unconscious reminders to undertake certain tasks.
I think it is possible at the moment to get into Diamond with only 50 games if you had no RTS experience previously due to the fact that there's quite a high number of uncertainty currently in the game. That being said, you can take advantage of the fact that BOs aren't solid and you can get away with greater errors that normally you would not be able to after the game's been out for a year or more.
On January 04 2011 17:47 imax wrote: I guess ages has to do with it to. I think 18+ helps.
I'd say more like 14+ (don't forgot when Flash won his first OSL) . . .
But not everyone picks up things at the same rate
Well, I am 27. And for the record, I do watch Day9 religiously.
This might be one part of the problem. I'm 29 and never played RTS competitively (except for SC/BW at private 8-person LAN parties looooong ago) and i got to diamond as a random player through hard work after about 200-300 ladder matches and a hundred 2v2/3v3/4v4 matches (yes, even those can teach you something). I notice that my APM is quite low and i have trouble keeping up with the things i want to do, just because i'm too slow.
Youngsters between 14 and 22 have an unfair advantage imho, they should definatly be nerfed.
What helped me to diamond was mostly the custom map YABOT where i repeated a few builds several times to get all the timings right and end up with the maximum amount of workers and units after 10 minutes.
I recently made a smurf account which for which i threw the placement matches so i could see how long it takes me to work my way up to diamond with my worst race (terran), and i have to say at least on EU silver is already darn good, there are usually only minor things that need to change to make them diamond, for example better timings for attacks (timing attacks instead of random attacks), better scouting (killed a zerg with a tank/hellion timing push who built 3 spore crawlers and hydra den without scouting any air), better micro (especially with banelings)... macro was usually suprisingly good, though it helps to watch your replays and check on it, too.
SC2 is much more forgiving than SC in allowing a newbie to learn to play quickly and adeptly. I believe I could take any scrub and train them to be a low diamond level player with a few weeks of practice following some very cookie-cutter build orders. The same could not be said of SC1.
On January 04 2011 19:28 Morfildur wrote: I recently made a smurf account which for which i threw the placement matches so i could see how long it takes me to work my way up to diamond with my worst race (terran), and i have to say at least on EU silver is already darn good, there are usually only minor things that need to change to make them diamond, for example better timings for attacks (timing attacks instead of random attacks), better scouting (killed a zerg with a tank/hellion timing push who built 3 spore crawlers and hydra den without scouting any air), better micro (especially with banelings)... macro was usually suprisingly good, though it helps to watch your replays and check on it, too.
I still think Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum can play very well, but it's their inability to multitask which hurts them the most, and it's usually where the better player shines.
On January 04 2011 17:32 piskooooo wrote: They probably got Diamond from winning 4-5 of their placement matches.
They probably just 4gate, cannon rush, 6pool, 12drone, 2 rax, etc.
They probably got it when the game was new.
They probably lied.
I went placement gold and str8 to diamond withing 50 games without any RTS experience during the last 2 month of beta. I did 1 1 1 vs terran, differnt types of thor helion all ins vs zerg and raven tank rine all in vs protoss.
So yeah you are part right, but hell while I do call them all ins now, they werent at that time. People just didnt FE back then.
In my book, there is no such thing as talent. There is only the will to train. The people that excel at what they do probably are the ones who trains the most aswell. Michael Jordan, Peter Forsberg, Leo Messi etc. You can bet your ass off that they train/trained more than anyone else to get where they was/are.
EPT
