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On January 06 2011 04:41 SlyinZ wrote:Show nested quote +Smurfz United States. January 05 2011 13:46. Posts 281 PM Profile Quote #
no previous RTS experience, got the game a month after it came out,, went like 75% win ratio to diamond.
i'm PsychonautQQ.218, now a 3250 protoss.
it's all natural baby, QQ
profile : Joined TL.net Monday, 26th of May 2008, you failed hard sir In topic, i think that a monkey can play mozart if you give him time. Anyone can be succesfull at anything, the only limited factor is the willpower.
Anyone can play Mozart but not everyone can write like Mozart did no matter how hard they try...
I think something a lot of people are missing is that something like 20% of players are in diamond. This means that ANYONE can be in diamond if they try hard enough (in my opinion). However, if you want to get top 100 or a professional, there are people that can NEVER get there no matter how hard they try. That's just the way it is. If you honestly think that ANYONE could be top 100 or even top 1000 if they tried hard enough, you're fooling yourself.
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On January 06 2011 05:54 Neo.NEt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 04:37 DIRESTRAIT wrote:
I agree that natural talent does have to do with it. I'll use guitar as an example. Sure if everyone practices day and night they'll become amazing at guitar, but some people just pick it up and have a feel for it that others don't, these are the people that get creative with the instruments and set the bar for everyone else (Drewbie drops, Maynard transfers), natural talent is not everything although it's not to be overlooked I agree with the natural talent thing, but I'm not sure you can compare it to music. Some people are naturally better at SC than others, but nobody will ever be at a level of Beethoven or Mozart or some child prodigy. I'm sure the Starcraft 1 people are going to be screaming about how flash or whoever was like 13 when he won some big SC1 thing but that's nowhere near the level of an actual child prodigy where someone is writing world class symphonies at like age 3...
I agree that players can't reach the same level of prowess as Mozart or some other child prodigies, but it's simply an example to show that, some people just seem to be better at doing things quickly, thinking on their feet, making the right decisions. These things take practice, but some people pick up on them naturally. Another way to look at it is maybe the potential skill cap for someone who is naturally skilled at video games is higher than the potential skill cap for someone that has no affinity with them. I'm not trying to compare starcraft with music, i'm just trying to show how yes anyone can play starcraft2 , how WELL you play it may be a factor of how naturally talented you are.
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On January 05 2011 11:37 Uniden wrote:I'd put my success down to 3 things: 1. Experience in old school FPS (counter strike and cod2 (aka when cod was good  )) gives me quick reactions, good mouse/keyboard control and of course fast decision making. 2. Replays, I watched the entire GSL and my APM literally magically increased from 60-70 to around 100 simply from watching how the pro's spend their clicks etc... 3. Simplicity, you can go a long way with 1 built for each match up.I play protoss so for example vs zerg I almost always try to proxy stargate and attack them when they have only 2 queens out with a void ray, couple of stalkers and a handful of zealots. I'd say that strategy alone is responsible for a good chunk of my wins vs protoss I just do 1 base collosus wars because people below high tier diamond are just inexplicably bad at macro so I always seem to get more collosus out than them alot quicker. vs terran i go blink stalker into dark shrine or high templar depending on whether they go MMM or some kind of tech play (this always get raped by banshees and is probably the reason i lose most QQ games against terran)
I think point 3 has the most to do with it :-). Diamond is just an indication of quality of play rather than variety of play. All of your builds are aggressive in nature and generally not reactionary. Especially for P reactionary play is one their strengths. However, to play in that style you will need to learn every single build that terran and zerg can throw at you, how to scout it and how to respond to each.
Unfortunately, you are likely to run up against a wall once you get high enough on ladder where people know how to hold off your strats.
I agree with your point regarding similarity of games though. My experience playing SC2 came in handy vs a friend who plays Tekken a lot. I just messed around for a while and figured out a punch/kick combo that counters most of the fancy moves my friend was trying to pull off. Guess I found the 6 pool of Tekken :-). Oh how my friend raged!
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i never played rts games before ( ok i played exactly !1! warcraft 3 1on1 in bnet) and after my first placement matches in beta i got in gold. after about 50 games i was promoted to diamond and im there ever since. i played random in the beginning and now im switching races depending on my mood ^^
i think the most important thing that brought me where iam is that i watched broodwar for a long time and iam watching a ton of replays.
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But you can always work hard and get the natural talent happening in other RTS games.
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On January 06 2011 04:41 SlyinZ wrote:Show nested quote +Smurfz United States. January 05 2011 13:46. Posts 281 PM Profile Quote #
no previous RTS experience, got the game a month after it came out,, went like 75% win ratio to diamond.
i'm PsychonautQQ.218, now a 3250 protoss.
it's all natural baby, QQ
profile : Joined TL.net Monday, 26th of May 2008, you failed hard sir In topic, i think that a monkey can play mozart if you give him time. Anyone can be succesfull at anything, the only limited factor is the willpower.
you realize Mozart wasnt a musician right? he was a composer (probably the greatest and most naturally talented of all time)
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I honestly don't know if I have talent or skill. I was off to a good start from the get-go.
When i first started playing the game, I watched hours upon hours of casting by Day[9], Psy, and other good commentators while I waited to be accepted into the beta. As soon as I started (and I got the feel for micro and macro), I was Gold.
I kinda just went up from there o.O
I have minimal experience in RTS before starcraft games (some, but not much), but I don't remember being any kind of prodigy at BW or WC3 (Quite the opposite. I worked my ass off to good at those games). I'm pretty hesistant to claim any kind of natural skill...
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I went from Bronze to Diamond in about 40 games during the Beta. Never played an RTS before this online (only against AI.. campaigns). However I watched probably as many Day9 episodes as games I played, which I think was a major contributor.
I don't understand how people can play over 500 games and still be stuck in silver and play like crap. Don't they ever improve? :o
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On January 04 2011 17:32 piskooooo wrote:
They probably got it when the game was new.
This was me. Still in Diamond.
On January 06 2011 21:06 doubled wrote:
I went from Bronze to Diamond in about 40 games during the Beta. Never played an RTS before this online (only against AI.. campaigns). However I watched probably as many Day9 episodes as games I played, which I think was a major contributor.
I don't understand how people can play over 500 games and still be stuck in silver and play like crap. Don't they ever improve? :o
I blame fear, lack of intuition, and the lack of being able to think, "Can I kill that with this? Lets find out."
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I didn't read all 16 pages, but I think the OP needs to refocus his goals. Stop worrying about what your icon says your rank is whether it's bronze or diamond. You need to FOCUS on your actual mechanics/knowledge of the game.
At silver league that just screams macro problems in my mind. I don't know a Silver league player that can say they have really good macro.
_________
Also don't give up you just got to keep on playing the game and try not to make the same mistakes over and over again. A lot of us have been playing Brood War so some of those skill sets transferred over. That's why a lot of people are so good because they already have a lot of background experience from BW.
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With no RTS experience I got into diamond with 200 games.
This is as Protoss without cheese (Only 4gating against FE zerg)
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On January 05 2011 00:35 mierin wrote:
Keep in mind, a lot of these players were ranked in ICCUP...even the meanest D- in brood war is equivalent skillwise to a pretty decent Diamond in sc2.
I don't think so... D- in Iccup is pretty damn bad. I'd say mid Ds to D+ is diamond capable.
C- and up is when you know wtf you're doing.
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I'd say that skill in almost any video game is going to be a combination of both learned and natural skill.
I'm new the the Starcraft scene but in my first month or so after release and watching countless replays and day[9] dailies I propelled my self from my rank 1 bronze status to Platinum pretty quick. (Granted I'm demoted to gold now but that is just from lack of playing and a 2 month hiatus I took.)
But I also have a pretty extensive competitive gaming background from FPS which IMO, shows the nature of how people approach video games.
Other than that no real RTS experience other than when I goofed around in WC3 ladder when I was like 13-14.
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I think the way you play those firth 80 games matters. If you allways use hotkeys and try to keep money low and probe production constant. I dont remember how many games i lost in the beta vs a 24 ich worker one-base all in b4 i was in diamond. For every all-in you learn to deal with your rank gets better.
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You can draw experience from all walks of life and it might contribute to you being better in a game. I was competitive growing up in Tennis, that probably helped me have better hand-eye coordination later on plus sharper reflexes. It at least instilled a competitive sense inside of me to push me to be very good at a reflex/aim based game.
I got into Diamond very quickly (<20 games) with no RTS exp, but that would be lying to say I have no idea what I was doing because i've played so many competitive games in FPS, watched alot of Korean pro SC1 vods which did help out alot. Basically, I knew to concentrate on learning macro and nothing else, as zerg this seemed the most intuitive thing to do after time. Learning macro isn't difficult so I don't consider this an achievement to have done it faster than others. I just made correct decisions in regards to practice, unlike others.
As for natural talent, this is much easier to be seen in other gaming scenes. SC is such a mechanically heavy game that the entire notion of natural talent should be ignored completely until you start looking at S-caliber gamers. What parts are measurable? For instance, you could argue Flashes best advantage is his "map hack" game sense.
If you could break it down, this is basically his subconscious running a shit ton of calculations at a very fast rate, very much like how you or me would see someones face and instantly recognise that as your friend or relative, but obviously you don't realise you have just completed a sequence of lightning fast calculations (ie eye-eye distance, mouth-nose ratio, patterns).
I believe Flash would instantly recognise a pattern in a situation which looks, to the average spectator, completely lacking in information and throws down a reaction, without thinking still, to it and garners an advantage. Be it a critical scan at a completely random moment, the feeling the opponent is going to do X build without having a single obvious tell, to understand the opponent even and know how he would think in the situation and such to know what he would be doing regardless of ANY information, that's the pretty scary part of natural talent.
JD, although his mechanics are of the highest level to be witnessed, his decision making on the fly is the reason his level is so unprecedented in ZvZ for example. Such a volatile matchup which, seemingly if both players follow through with builds impeccably, the build order should define the victor yet he can overcome this deficit over and over again. JvZ is natural talent I believe.
Me or you may have some small degree of game sense, that may be our only small bit of natural talent, but it's so blindingly insignificant at our level because this game demands such a high level of mechanics and understanding for it to be shown.
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On January 06 2011 05:54 Neo.NEt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2011 04:37 DIRESTRAIT wrote:
I agree that natural talent does have to do with it. I'll use guitar as an example. Sure if everyone practices day and night they'll become amazing at guitar, but some people just pick it up and have a feel for it that others don't, these are the people that get creative with the instruments and set the bar for everyone else (Drewbie drops, Maynard transfers), natural talent is not everything although it's not to be overlooked I agree with the natural talent thing, but I'm not sure you can compare it to music. Some people are naturally better at SC than others, but nobody will ever be at a level of Beethoven or Mozart or some child prodigy. I'm sure the Starcraft 1 people are going to be screaming about how flash or whoever was like 13 when he won some big SC1 thing but that's nowhere near the level of an actual child prodigy where someone is writing world class symphonies at like age 3...
He wasn't writing anything like world class symphonies at the age of 3. He started "composing" at age 5, which is still really good, but it's not like we listen to those right now and stand in awe. His early compositions were complete crap. The reason he was amazing was he had an ear for music, and spend all of his time playing and composing music. So what he did is COMPLETELY applicable to being "talented" at SC2. If you know what you are looking for, aka, have an "ear" for playing RTS games, and are really dedicated, you will get far. That is all "talent" is.
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Has anyone gotten to diamond in SC2 under 50 games where SC2 was their first video game played? Just curious as that would be a true indication of talent.
OR at the least who got to diamond in under 50 games without EVER playing any RTS games (even single player) and didn't play through the SC2 campaign or do any 2v2/3v3/4v4 games. They bought the game and clicked 1v1 ladder, 50 games later they are in diamond.
Someone who played through the campaign in SC2 or played SC1 at all has a huge advantage of knowing the basic game mechanics over someone who has no RTS experience, simply buys SC2 and hits 1v1 ladder. Also, playing any other sort of video game is also a huge advantage even if it is not an RTS since you practice decision making, reaction time, nerves, and basic improvement skills. The more video games you've played the easier it is to pick up new games and learn the rules and develop strategies.
My last point is: Is there any player in the GSL who SC2 was their first RTS game? Since honestly I think getting to diamond, doesn't really make you "good" at SC2, as others have said its similar to D or D+ in ICCup, and can be easily done by just practicing the first 8-10 minutes of the game using one BO(4gate/3rax) vs the comps then playing online always using that BO after learning how to do it without getting supply blocked/stopping producing units.
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Pretty sure noone has hit diamond in 50 games if it was their first video game, or even first RTS game. Unless they watched a whole crap load of replays/VODs/day9's/etc, and spend more time watching replays and analyzing their play than actually playing. Even then, it would basically be impossible if you''ve never played a single video game ever.
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I guess I should also mention that I am open to the idea of paid coaching (1-2 hours a week) for a reasonable price (that being 25$ or less) from someone who has actual previous coaching experience.
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they are people who either quite good with other games (even if it's no RTS experience)... like me
--OR--
who know how to "manage economy" or whatever you feel SC2 requires... kinda like me, but not really
--OR--
they are people who learn things fast.. like, me
by this i mean, even things in school, if they are told say, only once, they'll know it better and faster than a kid who was told 10 times... you know?
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EPT
