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sc2 skill, learned vs natural - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
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imax
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden31 Posts
January 04 2011 08:47 GMT
#21
I guess ages has to do with it to. I think 18+ helps.
DerpDog
Profile Joined October 2010
Korea (North)62 Posts
January 04 2011 08:50 GMT
#22
Oh yeah and as zerg, you don't have the "easy-diamond" builds. You'll just have to learn how to actually play the game, which is probably for the best. Also, don't overestimate diamond. There are plenty of people there, even "high diamond" (3k) that make plenty of mistakes. The ones that do make it there and beyond though are usually the ones who spot those mistakes and fix them, rather than posting on a forum about how naturally talented they are at StarCraft because they're getting matched up with x rating diamond. Make sure to watch the Day9 daily on drone timing. Watch it thoroughly and watch it often, zerg is really a hassle to learn how to play, but that's just about the best place to start.
JayDee_
Profile Joined June 2010
548 Posts
January 04 2011 08:50 GMT
#23
They were probably lying in some regard, but focused active practice is the quickest way you can get better. A lot of players just play casually and with out real focus. This is ok if you just play for fun, but you need to actively try to improve to get significantly better.
chenchen
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1136 Posts
January 04 2011 08:52 GMT
#24
On January 04 2011 17:47 imax wrote:
I guess ages has to do with it to. I think 18+ helps.


I'd say more like 14+ (don't forgot when Flash won his first OSL) . . .

But not everyone picks up things at the same rate
powerade = dragoon blood
Little-Chimp
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada948 Posts
January 04 2011 08:52 GMT
#25
Its pretty easy to get into diamond with certain builds. I got in extremely fast using one base protoss builds (4gate, void rays) but eventually hit a ceiling. I switched to zerg and opted to actually learn a more standard style and I got demoted to platinum but feel a lot more solid now.
Poring
Profile Joined August 2010
Switzerland34 Posts
January 04 2011 08:53 GMT
#26
I guess there is something like "natural". I don't consider myself having "RTS experience" as in actual competitive and melee experience - All I did in in BW/WC3 was mess around and play UMS - I don't think I've ever won a single WC3 Ladder game, even though I have tried several times. Beating the normal AI was a feat for me.

I think I've had around a hundred ladder games in beta. Back there I was in gold when there was copper league, and after diamond was introduced ... I really don't remember. I think I was too absorbed with playing team games with friends at that point.

Later, at release, I got into diamond after 20-30 games, which quite surprised me at first - but only until I saw what kind of other horrible players there are in diamond.
No insult to you lower lever players - actually, I personally think people below diamond show a lot more creativity, because they are not accustimed to "standard" play and build orders. But if a terran just continues to spam marine marauder for like 15 minutes and stays on one base, I dont see how that guy deserves "diamond" - and believe me, I've seen 1000-2000 diamond players who do that.

I don't consider myself very good. I have no actual builds planned out, am permanently supply blocked, lose to rushes or pushes all the time. I also only ever win ZvZ because my opponents aren't agressive - I am fucking terrible at ZvZ. I see myself around 2200-2400 diamond since I play against guys in that level all the time - I'm roughly 1000 diamond with at least a thousand bonus pool. I really should ladder more.

Long story short, there probably is something like natural. Maybe it has to do with general video game / computer (I type decently fast - does that increase my APM? who the hell nows) background, maybe it has to do with intelligence, maybe with reflexes, maybe its just pure random talent. The hell I know.

Oh, and to that guy:
On January 04 2011 17:32 piskooooo wrote:
They probably got Diamond from winning 4-5 of their placement matches.

They probably just 4gate, cannon rush, 6pool, 12drone, 2 rax, etc.

They probably got it when the game was new.

They probably lied.

Wow, you're really contributing a lot. You might be surprised. I rarely ever get cannonrushed or 6pooled on ladder. What the fuck is 12drone. 2 rax is standard, and so is 4gate, even if I dont like it. Also, I dont think I've cheesed in a single game on ladder (except for one game where I accidentally picked terran (offrace) and I simply 3 rax all-in'd a TvP because hell, I can't play terran). Don't let your anger out by making shitty posts.

And to end that horrendously long post of mine, you should not be hard on yourself because you are "only" silver. I know some players in bronze that would envy you for that. And hell, maybe you can refine some small things in your play and suddendly improve in skill a lot. Good look
shaunnn
Profile Joined October 2010
Ireland1230 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 08:57:28
January 04 2011 08:53 GMT
#27
I got in on 64 games with 0 rts experience, mmr seems to be around 2400-2600 atm. but i would probably be in silver/gold without a clue if i didnt actively watch a ton of day9 dailys in the beginning, practice about 100-200 games v easy/v hard learning how to solidly do build orders from 7/10 to 200/200, and watch a load of top players replays and vods

Some people just can learn alot more from less experience and some people dont learn at all and continue to make the same mistakes over and over, if you actively watch replays with the intent to learn and practice build orders over and over till they are natural for you its quite easy to go from clueless to 2200 diamond in a month

edit* im protoss but i havent 4-gated, cannon rushed, proxy gate or 1 based all in in a single ladder game yet, i find those strategys so much more risky then solid 2 base robo play
The naniwa - Unit of protoss skill, defined as the number of gates you build off of one base
pRo9aMeR
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
595 Posts
January 04 2011 08:57 GMT
#28
Some people have the natural talent but don't hone their skills. Others aren't very natural at things and have to work very hard to get to a high level. Then there are those with natural talent who do work to get even better.

To answer your question as to why you are still in silver, I will ask you some questions:
Do you look at your loses (replays) and find out what you did wrong?
Do you use your games to focus on a particular aspect of your gameplay?
Do you critique yourself harshly or lightly?
Do you look at your wins (replays) and find out what you could've done better or what you missed?
Do you have someone who is a higher level than you who can directly guide (coach) you in game?
What is your motivation for playing?
In training...let's play, gg! d^..^b
Reggae-Troll
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland241 Posts
January 04 2011 08:58 GMT
#29
I'd like to believe there is talent. Some people can pick up a game and be awesome at it in no time, while some people have to spend months to get to that level and even then they're not that special.

I played beta with no previous RTS experience. After the placement matches I spent some time being awesome in the copper league, not knowing what to do nor how to do it. I didn't play much, since I got the key very late and I was kinda bummed that I was so terrible. I wasn't quite sure if I even wanted to buy the damn game, I'm used to actually being a pretty good player(FPS games on competetive level) and I felt like I just didn't get starcraft. Then a friend of mine linked me to day9, I watched a few videos aimed for beginners (Plugging leaks in silver/gold?) and realized what I had been doing wrong. When the game went retail I got placed straight into platinium and 20ish games later I was in the diamond league. All I needed was a nudge in right direction.
Do feed the Troll.
SheaR619
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2399 Posts
January 04 2011 08:59 GMT
#30
Iono, i started out bronze first time i played but i just caught on extremely fast. I hit silver the same day and gold the next day and then plat 3 days after that and then 5 days to get into diamond. Once i got into diamond i just slowly polished my skills with everything i learn from all the league and is now mid/high diamond. I dont know anything about natural talent or hard work. I just think about my game and i just play the game. When i am in a game, it is as if my mind goes into a trance and i dont even remember half the game or what to do. I just sit there and my finger just react to what i see. I dont even remember 70% of a game that i play. I just usually remember key error that i makes and improve on that and move on. Maybe everyone just has their own pace......I have always claim myself to be good at video.
I may not be the best, but i will be some day...
iamsatan
Profile Joined October 2010
United States109 Posts
January 04 2011 08:59 GMT
#31
It's a combination of both, I placed in platinum, took me 3 months to get to diamond, been playing only zerg in 1v1. I played SC1 for a year or two, but not really on the ladder, of bunch of BGH lol. Played WC3 for 3 months when it came out. Taking SC2 a little more seriously, following the GSL and I watch Day9.
Ryndika
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1489 Posts
January 04 2011 09:02 GMT
#32
Ha! Natural total skill in sc2? No.

You may only have genetic features in yourself that makes you more competitive/ more adrenaline etc. which may or may not help you.

I've got some RTS experience myself by playing WC3, indie RTS games, ALL AoE, some Dota and age of mythology (against insane bots lol). So i got pretty quickly to plat. Now I play rarely ladder... Maybe 3 to 5 games in week because I NEED practice partner that is dedicated but does not take single game seriously so we are both free from pressure.

ty

as useful as teasalt
Deadlyfish
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark1980 Posts
January 04 2011 09:03 GMT
#33
I got into diamond in about 40 games, without any real previous RTS experience (AoE when i was like 13/14 if that counts ). And i wouldnt really say that i have any natural talent for starcraft.

I think that some people might just learn quicker than others. Or maybe they've watched alot before they played. I watched Day9 and read teamliquid before i started to play (played from release).
If wishes were horses we'd be eating steak right now.
Ulfsark
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States958 Posts
January 04 2011 09:05 GMT
#34
I had never played broodwar on battle net and never played any other RTS competitively. Though I learned the game pretty quick. I started out in Bronze and now am a 2500 point diamond. I am not sure if I would say I had natural talent, I would say I learned quickly.

So I suppose it is more about how fast you learn.
gg wp
OriginalBeast
Profile Joined September 2010
United States709 Posts
January 04 2011 09:05 GMT
#35
I play off of natural learning, however I watch all of my replays and write down my mistakes to find trends in my play that need improvement. I don't really follow a build order, but I have solid skills in all matches, I play protoss but I will probably be switching to zerg here soon.
More gg, more skill.
goldenwitch
Profile Joined August 2010
United States338 Posts
January 04 2011 09:06 GMT
#36
Just like I was telling a friend of mine who is struggling to rise past 2.3k diamond, if its not practice quantity that is the problem, it has to be practice quality.

Are you analyzing your play to make sure you are constantly building workers and never get supply blocked? Do you have a concrete plan for all 6 match ups in both close and far positions? After a loss, do you adapt your game play to prevent that loss from happening again? Are you struggling with micro?

You can play thousands of games, but if you never ask yourself these questions, you will get better at a very slow rate.
Jago
Profile Joined October 2010
Finland390 Posts
January 04 2011 09:06 GMT
#37
On January 04 2011 17:52 chenchen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2011 17:47 imax wrote:
I guess ages has to do with it to. I think 18+ helps.


I'd say more like 14+ (don't forgot when Flash won his first OSL) . . .

But not everyone picks up things at the same rate

Well, I am 27. And for the record, I do watch Day9 religiously.
Cloak
Profile Joined October 2009
United States816 Posts
January 04 2011 09:10 GMT
#38
It's the difference of working hard and working smart. Watch high level games and listen to high level commentary and see what they focus on.

Sure BOs are good, but think about:
what wins you your past games,
what's effective at certain points,
what compositions are good for what,
when is it safe to expand,
or when is it safe to aggress.

When is it best to do this, or to do that. More importantly, look at what you're opponent is doing (directly or indirectly) at all times. You want everything in your control so when you lose a game, you can go back to the replay and say "Hey, this is where I went wrong." Speed and mechanics comes from knowing what to do.
The more you know, the less you understand.
mr_tolkien
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France8631 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 09:22:28
January 04 2011 09:18 GMT
#39
People saying you can't go to Diamond fast without xp are 200% false.

I never played any PC game in my life, yet got to Diamond in less than 200 games, without doing any customs except like 10 VS comp during the beta. Although it's not "fast", it's far from being slow. And I'm a Zerg who never cheesed.
If you focus on improving rather than winning and are quite methodical, you get decent very fast.
The legend of Darien lives on
Kimaker
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2131 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 09:31:14
January 04 2011 09:23 GMT
#40
On January 04 2011 17:45 Leviwtf wrote:
There is no such thing as talent, it has been proven over and over again. The level of expertise you have is directly tired to how much you practice AND how effectively you practice.

Getting into diamond literally shows very little of your skill level, the easy way is to learn 1 all in build (4gate, 3rax, etc) and just use it always. And even if people have no previous RTS experience they might have played speed chess or something else that would give them previous experience that would be helpful. Hell, even playing video games alot that are 1v1 based in a big help in that you won't be nervous when playing 1v1 like most people are. They also might of watched day9 every day and he gives very helpful tips that many new RTS players take a long time to figure out for themselves.

Also, you will improve immensely when you stop worrying about the outcome (winning/losing and what league your in/your points) and instead focus on improving.

That's a load of crock. There CERTAINLY exists natural inclinations toward doing better than others at a given task considering we all think differently, and process information differently. Some ways of thinking would of course be more suited to quickly grasping rts's mechanics than others. I agree, hard work will beat out natural talent 9/10 times, but to say that "There is no such thing as talent..." is just lying.

Not gonna argue with the middle portion of your post, but then why are some people at 700+ games, and still in Silver? They probably know what a 4 gate is, and have the damn thing memorized so they could recite it in their sleep. And clearly practice is not the issue (so damn many games) so what is it then? (Exaggeration)
Entusman #54 (-_-) ||"Gold is for the Mistress-Silver for the Maid-Copper for the craftsman cunning in his trade. "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, But Iron — Cold Iron — is master of them all|| "Optimism is Cowardice."- Oswald Spengler
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