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On December 30 2010 12:22 EternaL_9 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 17:41 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 17:35 Silidons wrote:On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200  Or maybe because it's the least played race. But that's a huge maybe. (sarcasm) I hope you guys realize this makes people want to play the game less because of all this QQ. People think if pro's QQ then it must be right. I don't see NesTea or FruitDealer saying the same things IdrA says. It's because it's unwarranted QQ bullshit. fruitdealer made a big post bitching about zvt during his gsl 1 run nestea called out and tvz'd some random korean newbie who said it was easy to hold cheese zvt because its that retarded. you think they resort to allins nearly every zvp because they want to turn the game into a coinflip vs players worse than them? You're playing a lot of Protoss? WHAT You're dead to me.. On a serious note, that is the right thing to do right now, zerg is awful and not worth the stress when you can go beat everyone as toss with ease / shorter games. It's too bad everyone in diamond on the US ladder plays toss so its just PvP
the tears, they feed my soul. they feed it well.
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Hmmm honestly I'm pretty surprised there are so many Zerg in top 200. Good thing there are a few foreigners to bring up the numbers.
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On December 29 2010 22:47 kirkybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 21:45 ChickenLips wrote:Please don't stop posting these weeklies, your analysis and being able to quickly discern the korean names remains very interesting  I want to know who the mystery Zerg is. So far I've found a few VODs from a tournament in November he plays a very cool style and does some amazing shit. His playstyle and reluctance to reveal his identity make me think he's either a very successful SC1 progamer or a Blizzard employee from KR. oGsCarmel(P) vs 저승사자 (Z) http://jupanda.tistory.com/424oGsVicaL(P) vs 저승사자 (Z) http://jupanda.tistory.com/422SKit(T) vs 저승사자 (Z) http://jupanda.tistory.com/419Enjoy! The korean site was pretty slow for me. I suggest clicking play on all the VODs (they pause automatically as they run out of buffer) and letting it load for a few hours until you can enjoy them all without interruption. it translates to hell lion if that helps at all.
Rofl, I suppose you could translate it like that if you just read that word purely phonetically, but it actually means something equivalent to the Grim Reaper, not "hell lion".
As far as that account goes, many people outside of Korea were guessing that it could be EffOrt based on how good his win/loss ratio is, but that seems rather far fetched.
I've also seen some Koreans saying that it's Prime clan's shared team account. Haven't seen any confirmation on this either.
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On December 30 2010 02:08 zerious wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote:
Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic not that hard if you remake an account
The game gets you to an accurate MMR incredibly quickly. I used a guest pass on a new acct and within literally ~16 games I was playing 3k diamond players every single game (although I was still in plat).
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assuming another player is going to play perfectly is a lot to hope for. I think its a pussy move to auto gg when one thing goes wrong. how games even high level games where someone makes a huge comeback. Stangley i havent seen idra do it many times i wonder why..
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On December 31 2010 00:36 woofwoof wrote:
assuming another player is going to play perfectly is a lot to hope for. I think its a pussy move to auto gg when one thing goes wrong. how games even high level games where someone makes a huge comeback. Stangley i havent seen idra do it many times i wonder why..
Don't be an idiot. Talking about ladder here. Where you are practicing things not trying desperately to get the win. If you want to hate on Idra go do it elsewhere
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On December 30 2010 22:08 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:08 zerious wrote:On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote:
Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic not that hard if you remake an account The game gets you to an accurate MMR incredibly quickly. I used a guest pass on a new acct and within literally ~16 games I was playing 3k diamond players every single game (although I was still in plat).
New account, low amount of games played. Most top Koreans can get around a 65-75% win ratio on a new account. It's not easy but it's not special either.
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On December 31 2010 00:45 QuantumTheory wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 22:08 iEchoic wrote:On December 30 2010 02:08 zerious wrote:On December 30 2010 02:05 mols0n wrote:
Anyone else impressed with Marinekings win % on the korean ladder? its at like 72% that is ridic not that hard if you remake an account The game gets you to an accurate MMR incredibly quickly. I used a guest pass on a new acct and within literally ~16 games I was playing 3k diamond players every single game (although I was still in plat). New account, low amount of games played. Most top Koreans can get around a 65-75% win ratio on a new account. It's not easy but it's not special either.
That's the point, most top koreans don't get 75% like MK after 300 games. In fact, NO korean except him can do it, at least no one did it before.
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Good to see Slayers_Boxer up that high, expecting to see some awesome plays from him 
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So Zerg is stuck again. Who would have thought that? In mid diamond Zerg feels very comfortable, when the distance to your opponent is large. You possess several advantages. Huge sense of sight due to creep tumours. Good scouting starting with the mid game due to overseers or overlord speed. Huge, flexible production potential because of accumulating larvae. Great map control and scout blocking with speedlings.
Zerg allows to play a nice macro game and Blizzard wanted it that way. They constantly nerf units, which impede Zerg fast expansions.
So the basic framework of the Zerg race has been built, but problems remain.
200 supply deathballs are deathballs. Both Protoss and Terrans can macro up pretty fast, too. Zerg can't threaten anyone with a stealth techtree.
Complaints about the scouting is absurd, though. I don't want perfect information, because neither scbw nor sc2 has ever been a game of perfect information. Hidden techs for instance need to be rewarded. If you supply every race with maphacks, that will be gone.
Terran scans are overvalued. They have to go without an additional mule and the Terran can almost never be sure if he scouted the tech. Protoss is blind until he has the phoenix or an observer. Both a phoenix and a robotics facility opening can set the Protoss back.
Summa summarum all races have their problems with proper scouting.
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On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 17:01 Beef Noodles wrote:On December 29 2010 16:21 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200 indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg. Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win? I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol) zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters. and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army. if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled. zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that.
to be fair u cant really make alot of statistics of the foreigner scene. i think zerg is a race that simply needs more time put into it than terran for example, doesnt make it imbalanced. just compare t and p in sc1 tosses won more in the foreigner scene aswell because we dont play as much as the koreans.
talked to dimaga he has been inactive if i understood him correctly and darkforce has been busy with studies afaik like most foreigners and i well, im not good enough yet. who do you want to win in the foreigner scene? actionjesus? daboo? skruf? lol
i cant make a good statement what i think about balance since i have so much to learn still but as far as my games go and games in europe i almost hear every p/t say z is imba while all zergs around me tell p is imba
my point is, the level in europe is probably not high enough to draw fair statics from. but i think most of us has already agreed zerg needs more practice hours than a terran to win big tournaments
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On December 29 2010 17:30 udgnim wrote:Idra has self respect holding him back + Show Spoiler +
Idra picked zerg when zerg was OP and terran was UP so I think this is pretty hypocritical.
the skill ceiling for terran is higher than other races so it is natural that the most skilled players will pick them.
If you have good micro and macro, no reason to not pick terran. Despite zerg being "the macro race" does playing zerg really require more macro ability than terran who need to que up 1 unit at a time to remain efficient?
I
personally I think Z and P are much easier to play than terran in terms of micro and macro but I am not a pro so I don't know for certain, that is just my opinion.
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On December 31 2010 01:53 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 17:08 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 17:01 Beef Noodles wrote:On December 29 2010 16:21 IdrA wrote:On December 29 2010 15:44 Liquid`Ret wrote:all these theories on idra ladder are untrue...he ladders to win games...just watch his stream...it also explains why zerg isnt in top10 and why there are less of us in the top200 indeed if i think i can win i stay in the game. there are times when ive left a game and my opponent couldve made a gigantic mistake and handed me the win, but thats rare and irrelevant. its just really fucking easy to lose as zerg. Do you think that zerg is currently at a disadvantage or do you think it is a momentum race that cannot lose momentum if they want to win? I know that you don't like to respond very often, but I would like to hear your views on the current state of the zerg race (without iNcontrol telling you to shut up like on SOTG lol) zerg is fucking awful clearly weakest, least reliable options early game. any viable pressure is nearly a complete allin, besides light roach aggression which is easily nullified. both t and p have lots of ways to put game ending pressure on z early and half of them arent even close to allin, and most are unscoutable and have different counters. and the idea that z is somehow the strongest late game race is fuckin absurd. hive units are nearly useless and horribly cost inefficient unless broodlords catch them off guard. ya, you can insta remax if you're allowed to get a giant econ, but remaxing on lair units vs collosus or tank based armies hardly matters when you can trade 200/200 for a tenth of their army. if z guesses, and guessing is required if t and p dont show a ridiculously early expansion, correctly and hits drone timings perfectly then they have a mid game advantage, but its not an advantage that can be used very well. its very easy for t or p to make themselves unkillable and head for that invincible late game army. z gets to use their unit advantage to tech towards hive, which can be nullified, or to expand a bunch so they can throw away a few extra 200/200 armies before getting rolled. zerg is failing massively in just about every statistic besides gsl first places. the race is fucking awful. i honestly have no idea how so many people dont acknowledge it yet. zergs performance in the foreign scene is very nearly non existent. i think morrow has won one viking cup and otherwise 0 z wins since i won mlg dc. and a pitiful number of titles before that. to be fair u cant really make alot of statistics of the foreigner scene. i think zerg is a race that simply needs more time put into it than terran for example, doesnt make it imbalanced. just compare t and p in sc1 tosses won more in the foreigner scene aswell because we dont play as much as the koreans. talked to dimaga he has been inactive if i understood him correctly and darkforce has been busy with studies afaik like most foreigners and i well, im not good enough yet. who do you want to win in the foreigner scene? actionjesus? daboo? skruf? lol i cant make a good statement what i think about balance since i have so much to learn still but as far as my games go and games in europe i almost hear every p/t say z is imba while all zergs around me tell p is imba my point is, the level in europe is probably not high enough to draw fair statics from. but i think most of us has already agreed zerg needs more practice hours than a terran to win big tournaments
That's awfully vague. What does Zerg have to practice more than Protoss and Terran and why?
Earlier on in the game, there was a lot of work that had to be done in recognizing certain drone and army timings(this was much more vital to Z than P or T due to the nature of larva), but most all of that has been fleshed out by now. If you don't acknowledge that there is an inherent weakness in the Zerg race, Then what is it that is holding them back?
Any balance issues aside, the most glaring cause of failure I've seen in pro games is Zerg scouting. Zerg's have gotten better at responding to the timings of different strategies, they just have no reliable way of gaining information on what strategy to prepare for which throws many of them off and can cause immediate losses. This isn't something that you can just put more time into though. You send your overlord in and you cross your fingers and say "I hope he put his tech in an easily scoutable spot!".
If you add up the games by race on the Korean ladder, you'll see that the top Zerg players already have more games played on average than Terran or Protoss(top 10 for each race, Zerg had 25% more games played than Terran and 15% more than Protoss). I'm just not seeing where practice, instead of maps and game balance is leaving Zergs behind.
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On December 31 2010 04:32 frumpylumps wrote:
Idra picked zerg when zerg was OP and terran was UP so I think this is pretty hypocritical.
the skill ceiling for terran is higher than other races so it is natural that the most skilled players will pick them.
If you have good micro and macro, no reason to not pick terran. Despite zerg being "the macro race" does playing zerg really require more macro ability than terran who need to que up 1 unit at a time to remain efficient?
I
personally I think Z and P are much easier to play than terran in terms of micro and macro but I am not a pro so I don't know for certain, that is just my opinion.
So I guess that's why most high-level TvZ became marine/SCV fest? You gave me a good laugh.
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On December 30 2010 09:52 FOUTWENTYSIXTY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 08:40 debasers wrote:
And also, I remember David Kim saying that the Void Ray change happenned because a Korean Terran Pro sent them an e-mail explaining why some 3 gate stargate build was overpowered. It's kind of amazing what people will believe. It doesn't take one email to nerf void rays in to the ground no matter how it's phrased. Even if there was a magical and broken 3 gate stargate build, why would they nerf flux veins in the same patch. Voids were nerfed for the same reason that reapers were, they were ruining 2v2 as an actual playable option.
what?
in what way were/are void rays exceptional in 2v2?
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maybe increase unit site radius. It seems very small in this game and you have to have your unit in the direct path of the other units to see them coming
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god damn I love seeing Boxer rise the rankings!
BOXER FIGHTING IN 2011!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On December 31 2010 04:47 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 09:52 FOUTWENTYSIXTY wrote:On December 30 2010 08:40 debasers wrote:
And also, I remember David Kim saying that the Void Ray change happenned because a Korean Terran Pro sent them an e-mail explaining why some 3 gate stargate build was overpowered. It's kind of amazing what people will believe. It doesn't take one email to nerf void rays in to the ground no matter how it's phrased. Even if there was a magical and broken 3 gate stargate build, why would they nerf flux veins in the same patch. Voids were nerfed for the same reason that reapers were, they were ruining 2v2 as an actual playable option. what? in what way were/are void rays exceptional in 2v2?
Cloud of speedrays isnt only mobile as fuck but also strong as cunt.
Pardon the language.
I don't play 2v2s but I've heard quite a few times that mass speedray is _the_ >1v1 lategame unit comp.
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On December 31 2010 04:47 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 09:52 FOUTWENTYSIXTY wrote:On December 30 2010 08:40 debasers wrote:
And also, I remember David Kim saying that the Void Ray change happenned because a Korean Terran Pro sent them an e-mail explaining why some 3 gate stargate build was overpowered. It's kind of amazing what people will believe. It doesn't take one email to nerf void rays in to the ground no matter how it's phrased. Even if there was a magical and broken 3 gate stargate build, why would they nerf flux veins in the same patch. Voids were nerfed for the same reason that reapers were, they were ruining 2v2 as an actual playable option. what? in what way were/are void rays exceptional in 2v2?
maybe not 2v2 specifically but in team games (3v3 or 4v4) i guess the void rays could be pretty deadly. in 1v1 yeah if someone goes voids its easily countered, but in team games its hard to scout that and then counter it effectively. however of course 1v1s are more important. imo they should just balance stuff according to the game type, like balance the voids specifically for team games (or reapers) and then leave them the same in 1v1 if it doesnt need changed. im sure theres some way to do it
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EPT![[image loading]](http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/8/5/66b6fcd8-2d18-4fea-87fd-a33d72608095.jpg)
