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On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 15:24 Silidons wrote:On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote:
IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are? will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it. i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly. its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed.
Can't buff lings, that would make ZvZ a disaster and Z all-ins way too strong. Also, it would make a ton of team game strats incredibly overpowered, and apparently Blizzard cares a lot about that as proven by the reaper nerfs. Can't change creep spread and larva inject mechanics either, those are integral parts of Z mechanics.
Buffing queens seems most doable, but it would also be a nerf to fast air builds.
I think the real problems with Z's early game stem more from scouting/base design problems. Something seems off when T gets both the best early game scouting and early game base defense while Z gets neither.
On December 30 2010 04:21 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:On December 29 2010 15:24 Silidons wrote:On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote:
IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are? will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it. i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly. its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah whine more. I see Terran streams all the time where they outplay the Zerg and lose.
Wow what a terrific post, man. You really showed him!
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On December 30 2010 04:26 SamGamgee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:21 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:On December 29 2010 15:24 Silidons wrote:On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote:
IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are? will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it. i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly. its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah whine more. I see Terran streams all the time where they outplay the Zerg and lose. just because you are too ignorant to identify problems with the game doesnt mean you have to say im whining.
Too ignorant? Hardly, I just don't whine nonstop and give retarded, nonsensical posts about one player playing absolutely perfect and losing.
PS. Creep spreading all over the place and inject larvae are not ridiculously hard even at lower levels, it only gets easier as your have higher APM and are the top tier. Why? Because you are doing these actions when there isn't much shit to do. You aren't going to get retardedly punished for not spreading creep during a battle if you're doing it for 90% of the rest of the match. You might not have optimized it, but it's not hard to do so whatsoever, it's a poor argument, and gives a virtual maphack of anything that walked over it. Like mines in BW with more vision and you can extend it. Just sick oh whiny little nonames on the forums whining about every little facet of play. "omg he played perfect and still lost!"
On December 30 2010 04:44 Krigwin wrote:
Wow what a terrific post, man. You really showed him!
Because he showed anyone anything with his post, right? Except the typical QQ that plagues these forums by idiots that think they watched someone play perfect or exceptional despite only watching the POV from one player. Every Zerg stream you're in you see people bitching about Zerg being UP. But if you go to someone like Sjow's stream all of a sudden Terran is retardedly UP and can't do shit vs Zerg. Go to Huk's and you'll see people complaining as well. It's all about how they "can't do anything vs their opponent." Everything is extreme. It's stupid.
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On December 29 2010 22:47 kirkybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On December 29 2010 21:45 ChickenLips wrote:Please don't stop posting these weeklies, your analysis and being able to quickly discern the korean names remains very interesting  I want to know who the mystery Zerg is. So far I've found a few VODs from a tournament in November he plays a very cool style and does some amazing shit. His playstyle and reluctance to reveal his identity make me think he's either a very successful SC1 progamer or a Blizzard employee from KR. oGsCarmel(P) vs 저승사자 (Z) http://jupanda.tistory.com/424oGsVicaL(P) vs 저승사자 (Z) http://jupanda.tistory.com/422SKit(T) vs 저승사자 (Z) http://jupanda.tistory.com/419Enjoy! The korean site was pretty slow for me. I suggest clicking play on all the VODs (they pause automatically as they run out of buffer) and letting it load for a few hours until you can enjoy them all without interruption. it translates to hell lion if that helps at all.
He's 1 point away from #1 on KR ladder!
God I wanna see more of his game lol, if any of the TL guys can maybe find out who he is or rumored to be that would be great!
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On December 30 2010 04:44 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:26 SamGamgee wrote:On December 30 2010 04:21 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:On December 29 2010 15:24 Silidons wrote:On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote:
IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are? will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it. i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly. its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah whine more. I see Terran streams all the time where they outplay the Zerg and lose. just because you are too ignorant to identify problems with the game doesnt mean you have to say im whining. Too ignorant? Hardly, I just don't whine nonstop and give retarded, nonsensical posts about one player playing absolutely perfect and losing. PS. Creep spreading all over the place and inject larvae are not ridiculously hard even at lower levels, it only gets easier as your have higher APM and are the top tier. Why? Because you are doing these actions when there isn't much shit to do. You aren't going to get retardedly punished for not spreading creep during a battle if you're doing it for 90% of the rest of the match. You might not have optimized it, but it's not hard to do so whatsoever, it's a poor argument, and gives a virtual maphack of anything that walked over it. Like mines in BW with more vision and you can extend it. Just sick oh whiny little nonames on the forums whining about every little facet of play. "omg he played perfect and still lost!"
You obviously have no idea how the game works as your post shows that you cant comprehend its mechanics and their requirements. Ill leave you alone, its obvious trying to change your mind would be a waste of time.
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Yeah every race is frustrating but I think Zerg is probably the most annoying to play because the annoying things happen in the first 2 minutes of the game and they happen all the time. When I play toss and lose to a good Zerg who took over the whole map, at least I lost to a good Zerg. When I play Z and lose to a cannon rush... I lost to any 8 or 9 year old that can watch a replay. Pretty annoying.
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On December 30 2010 04:49 SamGamgee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:44 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 30 2010 04:26 SamGamgee wrote:On December 30 2010 04:21 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:On December 29 2010 15:24 Silidons wrote:On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote:
IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are? will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it. i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly. its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah whine more. I see Terran streams all the time where they outplay the Zerg and lose. just because you are too ignorant to identify problems with the game doesnt mean you have to say im whining. Too ignorant? Hardly, I just don't whine nonstop and give retarded, nonsensical posts about one player playing absolutely perfect and losing. PS. Creep spreading all over the place and inject larvae are not ridiculously hard even at lower levels, it only gets easier as your have higher APM and are the top tier. Why? Because you are doing these actions when there isn't much shit to do. You aren't going to get retardedly punished for not spreading creep during a battle if you're doing it for 90% of the rest of the match. You might not have optimized it, but it's not hard to do so whatsoever, it's a poor argument, and gives a virtual maphack of anything that walked over it. Like mines in BW with more vision and you can extend it. Just sick oh whiny little nonames on the forums whining about every little facet of play. "omg he played perfect and still lost!" You obviously have no idea how the game works as your post shows that you cant comprehend its mechanics and their requirements. Ill leave you alone, its obvious trying to change your mind would be a waste of time.
Cannot comprehend? I was in the top 200 as a Zerg user for a number of months, but thanks kiddo.
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On December 30 2010 04:44 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:On December 29 2010 15:24 Silidons wrote:On December 29 2010 15:13 Fa1nT wrote:
IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume um maybe to practice against it and see what the best options are? will be patched. waste of time to practice vs it. i agree with idra. something needs to be done early game for zerg. scouting is extremely difficult for most races (except for scan) early game, which is fine, but unfortunately zerg gets decimated from so many different kinds of early game rushes which are so hard to defend (which is extra potent because of short rush distances). Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly. its funny to watch streams and see zergs outplay opponents but still are on even footing or lose. zerg have so many extra things to worry about (creep spread, spawn larva, etc), and to have toss/terran who have to manage much less, be even with zerg who is doing his tasks perfectly, is simply unfair and needs to be fixed. Can't buff lings, that would make ZvZ a disaster and Z all-ins way too strong. Also, it would make a ton of team game strats incredibly overpowered, and apparently Blizzard cares a lot about that as proven by the reaper nerfs. Can't change creep spread and larva inject mechanics either, those are integral parts of Z mechanics. Buffing queens seems most doable, but it would also be a nerf to fast air builds. I think the real problems with Z's early game stem more from scouting/base design problems. Something seems off when T gets both the best early game scouting and early game base defense while Z gets neither.
agreed. buffing lings would have some issues. Changing spread and larva can be tweaked, but i guess that would need to be tested so im not sure.
Queens ground attack can be buffed so they actually do damage vs ground units and can help much more in defense, and air can remain unchanged.
Agreed that scouting and spines suck, and are the core of the issue. However im just throwing out other ideas outside of increasing ovie speed and buffing spines (reduced cost, faster attack, more hp, etc).
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On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:
Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game.
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On December 30 2010 04:54 TypeFake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:
Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game.
i dont think a minor hp buff to lings would be game breaking or imbalanced at any stage of the game, except for MAYBE 6 pool rushes.
lings melt so fast anyways later on i dont see how a small hp buff would break things.
xel'naga towers show me when hes 3/4 to 1/2 way to my base, hardly enough time. especially when you need an extra overlord or are short on larva.
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On December 30 2010 04:54 TypeFake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:
Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game.
Don't be ridiculous. All the races would benefit a lot from better scouting. Would make SC2 less about BO loses.
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its not ragequitting, community is just too ignorant to realize when a game is over.
I hope you mean the "ignorant" people, not the entire community.
IdrA ladders to practice, why would he stick around an extra 10 minutes in a game where he gets cannon contained when he most likely will lose unless the protoss fucks up?
time is more important than ladder points I would assume
Yup I agree.
Although I haven't watched his stream but I'm sure he knows when he should quit or not. And it's not whether he may be able to win still, but whether it's worth playing considering if he will improve efficiently or not.
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On December 30 2010 05:04 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 04:54 TypeFake wrote:On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:
Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game. Don't be ridiculous. All the races would benefit a lot from better scouting. Would make SC2 less about BO loses.
Just increase ovie speed from something like .48 to .56 (or whatever the values are). A very slight, slight buff but considering how long it takes for that ovie to die (usually only 1 marine initially is hitting it), it should have a noticeable effect. Or just remove the prerequisite of lair for the overseer, it's not like spending 50/100 early game is cheap anyways.
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On December 30 2010 05:06 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 05:04 Numy wrote:On December 30 2010 04:54 TypeFake wrote:On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:
Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game. Don't be ridiculous. All the races would benefit a lot from better scouting. Would make SC2 less about BO loses. Just increase ovie speed from something like .48 to .56 (or whatever the values are). A very slight, slight buff but considering how long it takes for that ovie to die (usually only 1 marine initially is hitting it), it should have a noticeable effect. Or just remove the prerequisite of lair for the overseer, it's not like spending 50/100 early game is cheap anyways.
Yea but Protoss also need better scouting, I guess hallucination time and obs cost is a moving in the right direction. Terran I'm not sure, think they have good enough?
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Wait, is this NEXTaeJa guy JiTaeHoon (sp?)? The ghost guy? And is NEXLuffy the Luffy? I'm assuming this Violet guy isn't the actual Violet.
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On December 30 2010 05:10 Krigwin wrote:
Wait, is this NEXTaeJa guy JiTaeHoon (sp?)? The ghost guy? And is NEXLuffy the Luffy? I'm assuming this Violet guy isn't the actual Violet.
I think Violet is the War3 Violet not BW Violet.
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It isn't really about buffing any one unit, that is what people don't get. The damage is already done just by the terran showing up, or even pretending like he is going to show up and then leaving.
People have learned how to not die to the early push, and terran players aren't trying to win the game with that attack early. They are just setting it up so that they have such a lead that the zerg has to spend the rest of his time catching up, and to do that you have to drone, and that sets up the next push which is actually the one that ends the game.
You have to change the risk reward of the early game terran, not eliminate it. Take zerg for example, you can 6 pool, and if it fails to do enough damage(scouted and walled off, etc) you are way far behind. It is a high risk high reward strategy. Take proxy gates, if scouted you are so far behind especially if you lose those gates and have nothing back at your base. Again, high risk high reward. The terran early game push, when you factor in salvaging bunkers, mules, the strength of scvs, and their ability to defend the counter the risk reward is way off. There is little risk and high reward with that strategy. If it fails, terran is not screwed. They simply move on to whatever else it is they want, maybe a bit behind then if they didn't but easily overcome.
So things like salvaging a bunker and getting full value back. That to me is the dumbest thing ever. I've never seen an RTS game that allowed some sort of sell back/salvage where you got full value. That doesn't even make sense, I wish real life worked like that so I could salvage my car and get full value instead of $400 when it breaks down(which will probably be any day). That is an example of something that is creating an imbalance to the risk reward because you can try to bunker and if it doesn't work simply get all your money back. Could you imagine if you could make lings, hold off an attack, and then turn 2 lings back into the hatch in exchange for 1 larva and 50 minerals?
Another thing could be decreasing queen build time. Right now the value of taking out the zergs queen(s) early game is game changing. Having to remake a 150 mineral queen which takes a while to build... another example of well worth the risk to take out a queen even if you lose 6 marines and 2 or 3 scvs. You can't take out toss chrono boost early game, you can't stop a terran from getting mules, but you can cut off zerg's mechanic.
I don't really have the exact solution, these are just some example, but simply put right now that ratio is just so out of whack early game. It is more than just making X unit stronger to stop the attack, that risk/reward ratio has to be in balance.
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On December 30 2010 05:09 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 05:06 FabledIntegral wrote:On December 30 2010 05:04 Numy wrote:On December 30 2010 04:54 TypeFake wrote:On December 30 2010 04:01 SamGamgee wrote:
Either buff lings/queens, or improve scouting so the zerg at least knows whats coming and can respond accordingly.
Or or you know what? You could just send one ling to each Xel'naga Tower and get a glimpse of what's coming. Buffing lings is ridiculous, since you could potentially pump out 50+ lings in one go in the later stages of the game. Don't be ridiculous. All the races would benefit a lot from better scouting. Would make SC2 less about BO loses. Just increase ovie speed from something like .48 to .56 (or whatever the values are). A very slight, slight buff but considering how long it takes for that ovie to die (usually only 1 marine initially is hitting it), it should have a noticeable effect. Or just remove the prerequisite of lair for the overseer, it's not like spending 50/100 early game is cheap anyways. Yea but Protoss also need better scouting, I guess hallucination time and obs cost is a moving in the right direction. Terran I'm not sure, think they have good enough?
Eh, they kind of do. Not as desperately, by any means. Keep in mind scans don't see everything either, so if you miss, you're kinda screwed (equivalent to the ovie situation). Although yeah, they're already implementing cheaper obs and faster hallu. I liked the idea someone had of making sentries detect anything under their guardian shield, or something of that sort. Would make toss also less vulnerable to banshee cheese, although it still would be a fairly shitty counter, but more so a method to buy time and not be 100% helpless until you can pop out a robo and obs.
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On December 29 2010 15:33 dtz wrote:
well it varies from person to person.
If i am not wrong, Morrow also practices that way. He said something like if he sent his overlord the wrong way, he leaves the game straightaway because a decent player would have killed it. Or if he loses like a few more lings than usual, he surrendered in ladder.Probably it's a good idea if you wanna refine your strategy or mechanics like Morrow did when he just switched.
Some people like HuK i think delays his gg for quite a while.
That said, in tournament games it is probably worth it to play on regardless of the situation. if FD had this fast gg mindset, he would not be GSL 1 champ because he would have gg-ed in game 3 against oGsTOP. So, It's probably good to practice playing from a sure lose situation
This is just ladder though so probably why some doesnt bother if they think the game is decided.
I don't think they quit because the game is decided, but rather because, as you said, they want to refine their play, and focus on playing perfectly early game, rather than to stretch out in a 2 hour game, where their initial mistake is forgotten.
I think nada would rise upp immensly if blizzard incorporated larger maps, as imho he's probably the only one who can out macro a zerg without crazy aggression ^^
I think Jinro would benefit quite a bit by the "leave if mistake" thing, as he seems to do alot of small mistakes during a game (losing track of drops etc), but is saved by his awesome overall strategic sence.
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On December 30 2010 05:15 FLuE wrote:
So things like salvaging a bunker and getting full value back. That to me is the dumbest thing ever. I've never seen an RTS game that allowed some sort of sell back/salvage where you got full value. That doesn't even make sense, I wish real life worked like that so I could salvage my car and get full value instead of $400 when it breaks down(which will probably be any day). That is an example of something that is creating an imbalance to the risk reward because you can try to bunker and if it doesn't work simply get all your money back. Could you imagine if you could make lings, hold off an attack, and then turn 2 lings back into the hatch in exchange for 1 larva and 50 minerals?
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The most hilarious part of this is that also concerning bunkers, say you just held off a push, and your bunker is about to burn, it's often more efficient to just salvage and rebuild and spend the resources on repairing. At the same time, say you started a bunker and realized you don't need it, but it's almost finished, it's once again more efficient to let the bunker finish building and then salvage it.
Personally, I think you should need an SCV to salvage bunkers (Make it an SCV command). Makes more sense to me, it wouldn't affect the "build a shitton of bunkers to fend off all-in" mentality, and it would directly nerf bunker rushes. That or not let a bunker salvage which is under attack or on fire.
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On December 30 2010 04:30 Neo.NEt wrote:
I've watched idra's stream a few times and there were a few games where I looked away for literally 4 seconds in the first 3 minutes of the game and the game was already over and he had quit out. On the one hand yeah sure, he's probably not going to win and he's going to have to play for 20 minutes with a 5% chance of winning, but when it's game 7 of the GSL finals and he gets his ramp blocked off he's going to wish he had practiced more against it instead of quitting out. However, how many more games has he played because he quits out so fast? I guess neither way is any better (unless you only care about your ladder rating, and obv idra just wants to get better).
I'm pretty sure all GSL Zergs have practiced what to do when you're at a deficit from cheese. And now they're practicing how to not reach such a deficit in the first place.
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EPT
