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On December 22 2010 15:41 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 15:30 SjoW wrote:
Lets make this clear. We both wanted to participate on this league and if both would participate on this tournament it would decrease our chances of winning the grandprize (a computer).
The league consists of 18 tournaments and is played once a day. For every first place you get a prize and climb one step closer to the grandprize. You ultimatly need to win 11 tournament to get the grandprize and when there is only 18 tournaments, only one can get the grandprize.
So we both agreed it would be better if we split the prizes and just let one of us win everyone. (we assumed we would go to the finals everytime since we would be in diffrent part of brackets because of seeds, we didnt see any harm in it.
We talked with the organisation and they didnt allow us to do fixed matches. Now only one of us gonna play.
Did you ask the organization before your conversation took place?
Nevermind, I am an idiot for asking that question. Of course you wouldn't have been talking about matchfixing if you had already talked to the organizers and got a no from them. A better question would be if you had asked the organizers before you realized that people were able to read your little conversation (as opposed to morrow saying that it's difficult to read on stream) and started making a big deal out of it.
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On December 22 2010 15:55 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 15:52 LegendaryZ wrote:On December 22 2010 15:46 SjoW wrote:On December 22 2010 15:41 Baarn wrote:On December 22 2010 15:36 SjoW wrote:On December 22 2010 15:33 Baarn wrote:On December 22 2010 15:30 SjoW wrote:
Lets make this clear. We both wanted to participate on this league and if both would participate on this tournament it would decrease our chances of winning the grandprize (a computer).
The league consists of 18 tournaments and is played once a day. For every first place you get a prize and climb one step closer to the grandprize. You ultimatly need to win 11 tournament to get the grandprize and when there is only 18 tournaments, only one can get the grandprize.
So we both agreed it would be better if we split the prizes and just let one of us win everyone. (we assumed we would go to the finals everytime since we would be in diffrent part of brackets because of seeds, we didnt see any harm in it.
We talked with the organisation and they didnt allow us to do fixed matches. Now only one of us gonna play.
Ahh you agreed to "game" the tournament but got busted? Serves you right. Shame both of you aren't banned from that tournament and others. This isnt any big league or anything. Nothing is streamed or no publicity just a fun tournament for gamers in a local gaming center. its not like we are playing infront of lots of people or anything. So that makes it ok to predetermine winners because it's not a big name tournament? Who's to say this wouldn't occur in a larger one when you two get more confidence? It's still wrong deciding who's gonna win beforehand regardless of what tournament it is. If you want a computer that bad I hear EG has a tournament and you have to beat Idra. I guess doing this type of shit is easier than beating him eh? I agree its wrong on a big tournament because it lets down the audiance. By not showing a good game or not a game at all. But in this case theres no audiance at all. It's not an issue of cheating so much as it is an issue of betraying the spirit of competition and sportsmanship. What you do afterward with the prize money is, of course, your business, but would it have killed you guys to just play out the games normally and see who wins regardless? It's not as if it's some sort of massive investment of time or effort. I don't think you get the situation. It's not just 1 series they were gonna have to play, it's a series of a bunch of tournaments. If, like roughly expected, they split these tournies 50-50, they each get an ok prize. But if they let 1 guy win most of them, he gets a way bigger prize, which they could then split and each make more money. Then they asked the tournament director and he said no, so one of them isn't playing. Nothing even happened. I have no idea why people are still mad, Sjow's posts cleared everything up.
What I'd like to know is did they ask the tourney director if this is ok or did they get taught talking about it and were told that they can't do it (and that one of them must forfeit their spot from the league)
Those are two very different scenarios. If they asked and were just told no then I think that neither of them did anything wrong in inquiring as to whether they could split things up in a way that would benefit one of them more.
If they got caught talking about it (likely not with any intention of letting the organizers know), then thats pretty serious. I doubt this is the case though as I would fully expect both of them to get banned if this happened.
Can we get a word from the tournament organizer in here to clear this up?
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This thread needs to be locked.
Nobody is even bothering to read Sjow's post explaining it all, this is just getting blown way our of proportion by people too lazy to read through the whole thread.
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is awesome32281 Posts
On December 22 2010 14:57 ShootingStars wrote:
your point? if you arent the better player it doesnt matter really =/
if you want to stop them from match fixing, go to the tournament and beat them so they cant fix the final
matchfixing is FINE. it doesnt affect you... they ARE top players.
r u 4 rela?
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honestly, even thinking the organizers would be ok with it is pretty stupid ^^
but some ppl dont realize that if they both played and got to every final
and then played like 9-9, nobody would get the prize, so i guess its also kind of a bad format
which doesnt make this any more smart :D
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Added a translation of the original article to the OP.
On December 22 2010 16:01 Backpack wrote:
This thread needs to be locked.
Nobody is even bothering to read Sjow's post explaining it all, this is just getting blown way our of proportion by people too lazy to read through the whole thread.
We've read the post, and a lot of us, myself included, don't feel like it particularly justified anything.
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I don't see how people call this cheating. It just seems like prize splitting to me. This is done all the time in tournaments of all sorts and usually isn't a secret or anything. If two people make it to the finals of a tourney they should be able to do whatever they want with the winnings. This is nothing like savior since there is no betting going on.
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On December 22 2010 15:42 SjoW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 15:39 aka_star wrote:On December 22 2010 15:36 SjoW wrote:On December 22 2010 15:33 Baarn wrote:On December 22 2010 15:30 SjoW wrote:
Lets make this clear. We both wanted to participate on this league and if both would participate on this tournament it would decrease our chances of winning the grandprize (a computer).
The league consists of 18 tournaments and is played once a day. For every first place you get a prize and climb one step closer to the grandprize. You ultimatly need to win 11 tournament to get the grandprize and when there is only 18 tournaments, only one can get the grandprize.
So we both agreed it would be better if we split the prizes and just let one of us win everyone. (we assumed we would go to the finals everytime since we would be in diffrent part of brackets because of seeds, we didnt see any harm in it.
We talked with the organisation and they didnt allow us to do fixed matches. Now only one of us gonna play.
Ahh you agreed to "game" the tournament but got busted? Serves you right. Shame both of you aren't banned from that tournament and others. This isnt any big league or anything. Nothing is streamed or no publicity just a fun tournament for gamers in a local gaming center. its not like we are playing infront of lots of people or anything. so its ok to cheat a local event but not a big one?... you know what they say, once a cheater.... How can you say its cheating? both are in finals and both agrees on splitting the money without playing the actual match. I dont get it...
By your logic, then why even play the finals? Why not just have each of you get a prize for being at the finals or pay part of the prize to each top player in the tournament? Starcraft, like all spectator sports, are based on competition. If games are fixed, then there's no point in having a tournament at all. It's been mentioned before, but match-fixing absolutely ruins sports. Think back to the Savior match-fixing scandal of Brood War. Please play the games out to the best of your ability. Then if you feel that you should split the prize in the end, feel free to do so.
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Teamliquid.net desperately needs a rule regarding reading the thread before posting, and teamliquid.net desperately needs about 50% of the membership banned.
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On December 22 2010 16:01 Backpack wrote:
This thread needs to be locked.
Nobody is even bothering to read Sjow's post explaining it all, this is just getting blown way our of proportion by people too lazy to read through the whole thread.
I read SjoW's posts, and it still puts a bad taste in my mouth. Apparently it is perfectly fine to be unethical folks, as long as nobody is watching.
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On December 22 2010 15:04 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 15:02 ShootingStars wrote:
please tell me how match fixing is cheating, like map hacking thanks
TWO players in an agreement. unlike maphacking
the key word is AGREEMENT. if both players agree, then its fine.
its just like map choosing. both players agree to play on LOST TEMPLE, Are you joking? Obviously something can be cheating even though players agree. Let's say two players on a team agree one of them will win so that both can advance through groups. Clearly this isn't allowed, and even if they agree to do it it's still violating the rules. Otherwise, I am not sure about the validity of the claim in this article.
I'm not sure it's realistic to expect 2 players who are teammates and good friends to be in the same group and not try to help each other if possible. This should be avoided by not placing teammates in the same groups if possible, and if they are have teammates play each other first in group rounds.
I don't think there is anything wrong with teammates setting up playing certain qualifier tourneys and even purposely getting a lower seed if they are that confident they will be able to meet each other in the finals regardless of who else they face. However, staging the finals shouldn't be done and is stupid. They even can agree to split the money, and try using silly strats if they want.
edit: Just read SjoW post in this thread. I'd have to see the tourney information to fully understand but it sounds like a bad position to put the players in. Doesn't seem to malicious to me (the actions of SjoW/MorroW that is.)
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On December 22 2010 16:03 DEN1ED wrote:
I don't see how people call this cheating. It just seems like prize splitting to me. This is done all the time in tournaments of all sorts and usually isn't a secret or anything. If two people make it to the finals of a tourney they should be able to do whatever they want with the winnings. This is nothing like savior since there is no betting going on.
but in those tours u can just split the prize and then play a normal game anyways,
its like giving the other guy half of the prize after u won,
but that is not possible here because of the format, they would have to throw matches 
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I wouldn't necessarily call it matchfixing per se. It's not like they're betting on it or anything. As for them wanting the people they want in the finals, that could simply mean they want team mates or friends to do well.
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Finding loopholes into the format no matter how bad it is still hurts the integrity and esports in general. I read the explanation from Sjow and it still doesn`t give any credibility at all to be honest. Call it what you will, that is still match fixing.
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On December 22 2010 15:42 SjoW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 15:39 aka_star wrote:On December 22 2010 15:36 SjoW wrote:On December 22 2010 15:33 Baarn wrote:On December 22 2010 15:30 SjoW wrote:
Lets make this clear. We both wanted to participate on this league and if both would participate on this tournament it would decrease our chances of winning the grandprize (a computer).
The league consists of 18 tournaments and is played once a day. For every first place you get a prize and climb one step closer to the grandprize. You ultimatly need to win 11 tournament to get the grandprize and when there is only 18 tournaments, only one can get the grandprize.
So we both agreed it would be better if we split the prizes and just let one of us win everyone. (we assumed we would go to the finals everytime since we would be in diffrent part of brackets because of seeds, we didnt see any harm in it.
We talked with the organisation and they didnt allow us to do fixed matches. Now only one of us gonna play.
Ahh you agreed to "game" the tournament but got busted? Serves you right. Shame both of you aren't banned from that tournament and others. This isnt any big league or anything. Nothing is streamed or no publicity just a fun tournament for gamers in a local gaming center. its not like we are playing infront of lots of people or anything. so its ok to cheat a local event but not a big one?... you know what they say, once a cheater.... How can you say its cheating? both are in finals and both agrees on splitting the money without playing the actual match. I dont get it...
I don't understand how you could take esports seriously if you think this is ok on any competitive level, I mean we can take the 'its ok to split if everyone agrees' mindset to the extreme and lets say the 64 qualifiers of GLS were to split the prize pool which is around $150,000 a season, around $2300 per player and all they 64 had to do was qualify each month and pocket a nice salary for doing much less, everyone is a winner, GLS fails of course and fans are left disappointed but match fixing is ok if everyone agrees right?.... (bad mindset, and where do we draw the line if we say its ok in smaller tournaments)
That mindset cheats so many people, spectators, sponsors and the seriousness of the game as a competitiveness arena. It makes a joke out of anyone putting on an event and having you turn up with your friends to rig it. I see it that, by signing up to a competition you have a duty as a participant to play that out tournament out to the best of your ability if you want to win it or punished by a more deserving player.
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On December 22 2010 16:00 darmousseh wrote:Actually this is a good example of a prisoners dilemma. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemmaIf sjow and morrow both try beat each other, they will end up with small prizes each. If they cooperate, they will end up with medium prizes each, but if one wants to cooporate and the other deceives and wins the whole prize, then one would end up with a large prize, but the other with a small or no prize. Game Theory FTW
The utility curve of each player is more than just the computer prize. You also have to take into consideration all future benefits of playing SC2 which are drastically reduced after allegations/plans of match fixing.
Game Theory FTW. Go rationalize Match Fixing some more. Actually don't. Just stop posting.
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United States4053 Posts
On December 22 2010 16:03 Chipotle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 15:42 SjoW wrote:On December 22 2010 15:39 aka_star wrote:On December 22 2010 15:36 SjoW wrote:On December 22 2010 15:33 Baarn wrote:On December 22 2010 15:30 SjoW wrote:
Lets make this clear. We both wanted to participate on this league and if both would participate on this tournament it would decrease our chances of winning the grandprize (a computer).
The league consists of 18 tournaments and is played once a day. For every first place you get a prize and climb one step closer to the grandprize. You ultimatly need to win 11 tournament to get the grandprize and when there is only 18 tournaments, only one can get the grandprize.
So we both agreed it would be better if we split the prizes and just let one of us win everyone. (we assumed we would go to the finals everytime since we would be in diffrent part of brackets because of seeds, we didnt see any harm in it.
We talked with the organisation and they didnt allow us to do fixed matches. Now only one of us gonna play.
Ahh you agreed to "game" the tournament but got busted? Serves you right. Shame both of you aren't banned from that tournament and others. This isnt any big league or anything. Nothing is streamed or no publicity just a fun tournament for gamers in a local gaming center. its not like we are playing infront of lots of people or anything. so its ok to cheat a local event but not a big one?... you know what they say, once a cheater.... How can you say its cheating? both are in finals and both agrees on splitting the money without playing the actual match. I dont get it... By your logic, then why even play the finals? Why not just have each of you get a prize for being at the finals or pay part of the prize to each top player in the tournament? Starcraft, like all spectator sports, are based on competition. If games are fixed, then there's no point in having a tournament at all. It's been mentioned before, but match-fixing absolutely ruins sports. Think back to the Savior match-fixing scandal of Brood War. Please play the games out to the best of your ability. Then if you feel that you should split the prize in the end, feel free to do so.
The point is, the two wanted to fix the finals because if they competed wholeheartedly in the finals then it's likely neither would have gotten the prize, which is only awarded for winning 11 of 18. They asked the managers whether they could fix the finals, and the managers said no. If I'm reading SjoW's post right, no matchfixing actually occurred. To that end, I think a title change might be in order, since the current title implies that there's reason to believe SjoW and MorroW actually fixed something.
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On December 22 2010 16:02 Subversion wrote:Added a translation of the original article to the OP. Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:01 Backpack wrote:
This thread needs to be locked.
Nobody is even bothering to read Sjow's post explaining it all, this is just getting blown way our of proportion by people too lazy to read through the whole thread. We've read the post, and a lot of us, myself included, don't feel like it particularly justified anything.
If you read the posts and still think there's an issue then you're just an idiot that should stop posting in this thread anyways. So either way it should be locked.
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Blown way out of proportion.
I guess it's not only girls who like to stir up drama.
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people.. its not like what they did was wrong, from what i can tell is that they wont even play the finals if they faced each other, and just let one of them win, which honestly is perfectly fine considering they got to the finals legitimately, the difference b/t this and a regular cheating scandal is that a player will lose on purpose, but in this case it isnt the case
*correct me if i have any info incorrect as i didnt read every post/skimmed some of it, in which case my post cud be totally irrelavant/pointless
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EPT
