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Morrow and Sjow Matchfixing? - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
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11cc
Profile Joined May 2008
Finland561 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 07:23:40
December 22 2010 07:21 GMT
#181
I wont comment on the match fixing thing, but even with only one of them playing it sounds pretty lame... it's not the players' fault that the tournament is like that, but having a good player not playing just to make it easier for the other player to win the thing is stupid. I wouldn't be interested to watch a single match of that kind of tournament.
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
December 22 2010 07:23 GMT
#182
Seriosuly, do people read threads? Like, at all? From Sjow's explanation this doesn't sound like an issue whatsoever

They wanted to fix the finals because if they competed wholeheartedly in the finals then it's likely neither would have gotten the prize, which is only awarded for winning 11 of 18.


Okay, they wanted to be able to have the grand prize. Not too big of a deal. They wanted to set the matches so that one would lose if the final. Again, this probably isn't allowed, but they have some legitimate reasons for wanting to see.

Now, here is the important part. They then checked with officials to see if it would be okay to do so. They were told no, and of course agreed they wouldn't matchfix in any way and only one would participate.

This is like going to a golf tournament with a new ball thats supposed to go thirty yards further. Your pretty sure however, that it is non conforming and thus illegal. You then ask the rules officials if this ball meets the conforming standards. You are told no, and this don't use the ball. This is in no way cheating, and I don't see how anyone can view it as such. I'm legitamately baffled.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
Cathasaigh
Profile Joined April 2010
United States285 Posts
December 22 2010 07:24 GMT
#183
On December 22 2010 16:16 Biggo wrote:
This is why I see it as cheating:

-To win the major prize the tournament organiser has ruled that you have to clearly be the best player (ie win 11/18 games)

-It seems neither Sjow or Morrow felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it

-They then tried to work out a plan to get the main prize by handing one free wins

So for me, the intention to cheat was there. That they asked the admin and didn't go ahead is a good thing, but then again, did you only check with the admin because this was leaked?


Felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it? It was clear they would most like meet in the finals every time and it could very easily end up split 9-9 or 8-10 between the two of them. So seeing as how they're both friends why would they screw each other out of prizes? It's not like this is some elaborate scheme to get one of them to the finals and hopefully win something, they were both gonna be meeting in the finals.
This is the tale of Captain Jack Sparrow!
Shika
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Sweden1711 Posts
December 22 2010 07:24 GMT
#184
On December 22 2010 16:16 Biggo wrote:
This is why I see it as cheating:

-To win the major prize the tournament organiser has ruled that you have to clearly be the best player (ie win 11/18 games)

-It seems neither Sjow or Morrow felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it

-They then tried to work out a plan to get the main prize by handing one free wins

So for me, the intention to cheat was there. That they asked the admin and didn't go ahead is a good thing, but then again, did you only check with the admin because this was leaked?


Oh come on.. First of all they would be in different brackets every tournament because they are seeded highest. "Not confident to win".. The reason why they would have to not give it their best against each other is because they are confident they will destroy their brackets and make it to the finals in pretty much all of the tours, so the only thing keeping any of them from claiming the big price would be them screwing each other over by winning against each other.

Stop trying to stir up stuff out of nothing, you obviously are not aware of the tournament layout so don't post in absolutes based on misinterpreted rulesets.
darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
December 22 2010 07:24 GMT
#185
On December 22 2010 16:09 cskalias.pbe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 16:00 darmousseh wrote:
Actually this is a good example of a prisoners dilemma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

If sjow and morrow both try beat each other, they will end up with small prizes each. If they cooperate, they will end up with medium prizes each, but if one wants to cooporate and the other deceives and wins the whole prize, then one would end up with a large prize, but the other with a small or no prize.

Game Theory FTW


The utility curve of each player is more than just the computer prize. You also have to take into consideration all future benefits of playing SC2 which are drastically reduced after allegations/plans of match fixing.

Game Theory FTW. Go rationalize Match Fixing some more. Actually don't. Just stop posting.


Pshhh taking things too seriously. This is why the prisoner's dilemma is not a real life scenario and is just hypothetical. I'm just having fun. If you can chill, chill.
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
iggyfisk
Profile Joined April 2008
Sweden212 Posts
December 22 2010 07:25 GMT
#186
On December 22 2010 16:23 L_Master wrote:
Seriosuly, do people read threads? Like, at all? From Sjow's explanation this doesn't sound like an issue whatsoever

Show nested quote +
They wanted to fix the finals because if they competed wholeheartedly in the finals then it's likely neither would have gotten the prize, which is only awarded for winning 11 of 18.


Okay, they wanted to be able to have the grand prize. Not too big of a deal. They wanted to set the matches so that one would lose if the final. Again, this probably isn't allowed, but they have some legitimate reasons for wanting to see.

Now, here is the important part. They then checked with officials to see if it would be okay to do so. They were told no, and of course agreed they wouldn't matchfix in any way and only one would participate.

This is like going to a golf tournament with a new ball thats supposed to go thirty yards further. Your pretty sure however, that it is non conforming and thus illegal. You then ask the rules officials if this ball meets the conforming standards. You are told no, and this don't use the ball. This is in no way cheating, and I don't see how anyone can view it as such. I'm legitamately baffled.


Sorry kid, theres a golfdonuts.net forum that never bans dogshit posters that is now FURIOUS that you planned to cheat and to be honest you should never be allowed in golfing competitions again.
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 07:26:26
December 22 2010 07:25 GMT
#187
In fact, they were very honourable. They decided to check with the organizers to see if it was alright, when they could have just done it anyway and try to hide it, pretending they were playing their best. That way they could easily have gotten awesome prizes for sure.

But they didnt. They asked if it was ok first.
If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
Cathasaigh
Profile Joined April 2010
United States285 Posts
December 22 2010 07:26 GMT
#188
On December 22 2010 16:23 L_Master wrote:
Seriosuly, do people read threads? Like, at all? From Sjow's explanation this doesn't sound like an issue whatsoever

Show nested quote +
They wanted to fix the finals because if they competed wholeheartedly in the finals then it's likely neither would have gotten the prize, which is only awarded for winning 11 of 18.


Okay, they wanted to be able to have the grand prize. Not too big of a deal. They wanted to set the matches so that one would lose if the final. Again, this probably isn't allowed, but they have some legitimate reasons for wanting to see.

Now, here is the important part. They then checked with officials to see if it would be okay to do so. They were told no, and of course agreed they wouldn't matchfix in any way and only one would participate.

This is like going to a golf tournament with a new ball thats supposed to go thirty yards further. Your pretty sure however, that it is non conforming and thus illegal. You then ask the rules officials if this ball meets the conforming standards. You are told no, and this don't use the ball. This is in no way cheating, and I don't see how anyone can view it as such. I'm legitamately baffled.


Seriously, this is like a perfect example.
This is the tale of Captain Jack Sparrow!
Brutus
Profile Joined May 2010
Netherlands284 Posts
December 22 2010 07:26 GMT
#189
How can there be no fucking issue? They are openly match fixing on stream. You guys are lucky I am not in charge of tournaments because I would've banned you two for future tournaments.

Just because its small doesn't make it right on any lvl. You can argue about the way the prize is setup, that doesn't make it right to match fix.

The reaction from sjow is ridiculous. Just admit you guys made a big mistake and apologize. Instead you say "its just a small tournament np get over it". My respect for the both of you was already very low, but it has reached an all time low.

Look at idra who faces huk and qxc for a notebook he can't even win, but still rolls them over. And don't give me that shitty argument that that one is being broadcasted because that doesn't fucking matter.

Shame on you
hmunkey
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom1973 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 07:41:42
December 22 2010 07:28 GMT
#190
Well that's horribly fucked up, if it's true.
Edit: Based on what Sjow said, they didn't actually fix anything and because of that, the title should be changed. It seems that they actually asked the tournament manager before doing anything anyways.
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 07:30:36
December 22 2010 07:28 GMT
#191
On December 22 2010 16:26 Brutus wrote:

Shame on you


Shame on you for not reading enough, actually.

They decided to check if it was ok, asking the organizers, instead of just doing it anyway. They could have done it - they decided to ask first. The organizers said no. They didnt do it.

You would seriously ban two people for asking an admin if something is allowed, and then not doing it when the admin says its not allowed. You would ban them for that?

Shame on YOU, man. Lol. I would hate to play in a tournament you organized.
If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
nkr
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Sweden5451 Posts
December 22 2010 07:30 GMT
#192
It is true.
ESPORTS ILLUMINATI
Cathasaigh
Profile Joined April 2010
United States285 Posts
December 22 2010 07:33 GMT
#193
On December 22 2010 16:26 Brutus wrote:
How can there be no fucking issue? They are openly match fixing on stream. You guys are lucky I am not in charge of tournaments because I would've banned you two for future tournaments.

Just because its small doesn't make it right on any lvl. You can argue about the way the prize is setup, that doesn't make it right to match fix.

The reaction from sjow is ridiculous. Just admit you guys made a big mistake and apologize. Instead you say "its just a small tournament np get over it". My respect for the both of you was already very low, but it has reached an all time low.

Look at idra who faces huk and qxc for a notebook he can't even win, but still rolls them over. And don't give me that shitty argument that that one is being broadcasted because that doesn't fucking matter.

Shame on you


There's no issue because they asked the admins if they both got to the finals if they would be allowed to give one a win to help them get the grand prize, the admin said no, THEY DIDN'T DO IT. Coming up with an idea, no matter how stupid, isn't an issue if you check if it's allowed before hand and then don't do it if it's not.
This is the tale of Captain Jack Sparrow!
Mr. Wiggles
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada5894 Posts
December 22 2010 07:34 GMT
#194
I wish people would read, and then in addition to reading try to understand what they read...

I'm very glad that Sjow came in here to clear up what actually ended up happening, and my opinion of neither player has been lowered.

If anything, I think this is a result of the cafe being greedy and putting on an event which discourages competition between the best players. If they were evenly matched, and they split the tournaments 9-9, then neither would get the large prize, but if one of them forfeited only 2 or the finals of the tournaments, then one could actually attain the large prize.

The cafe put up a very good prize with the expectation that no one would realistically be able to win it. I actually find that worse than what Morrow and Sjow were planning. They simply wanted to draw more people into their cafe, make more money, and then keep the prize.

It's really a very stupid format. It's like if for the GSL you won 100,000$ if you 5-0ed your opponent in the finals, but it would be split 2,000$ and 1,000$ if you did anything else... I'm all for the competitiveness of eSports and the spirit of competition, but at the end of the day it's professional gaming. They need to make money, hence the word professional. If anything, I think this reflects a need for more tournaments, sponsors, and larger prize pools, so progamers can actually make money and not need to find ways to maximize profit from the small amount of tournaments available.
you gotta dance
Brutus
Profile Joined May 2010
Netherlands284 Posts
December 22 2010 07:34 GMT
#195
On December 22 2010 16:28 vOdToasT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 16:26 Brutus wrote:

Shame on you


Shame on you for not reading enough, actually.

They decided to check if it was ok, asking the organizers, instead of just doing it anyway. They could have done it - they decided to ask first. The organizers said no. They didnt do it.

You would seriously ban two people for asking an admin if something is allowed, and then not doing it when the admin says its not allowed. You would ban them for that?

Shame on YOU, man. Lol. I would hate to play in a tournament you organized.


just to think about match fixing and setting it up is enough for me. of course they shouldn't be banned because they didn't actually do it, but it is so dishonourable. How can you defend them?

And they actually eliminated the chance 1 of them will win it. Of 1 wins it expect a shitstorm
Biggo
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia185 Posts
December 22 2010 07:35 GMT
#196
On December 22 2010 16:24 Cathasaigh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 16:16 Biggo wrote:
This is why I see it as cheating:

-To win the major prize the tournament organiser has ruled that you have to clearly be the best player (ie win 11/18 games)

-It seems neither Sjow or Morrow felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it

-They then tried to work out a plan to get the main prize by handing one free wins

So for me, the intention to cheat was there. That they asked the admin and didn't go ahead is a good thing, but then again, did you only check with the admin because this was leaked?


Felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it? It was clear they would most like meet in the finals every time and it could very easily end up split 9-9 or 8-10 between the two of them. So seeing as how they're both friends why would they screw each other out of prizes? It's not like this is some elaborate scheme to get one of them to the finals and hopefully win something, they were both gonna be meeting in the finals.


But the way the competition was structured was that you don't get a prize for making it to the finals, you get the prize for winning the finals. My comment was they didn't feel confident they could win 11 finals, which is what the competition required.

If you don't like a tournaments structure, don't join it. Don't try to conspire with the other best player in it to ensure one of you gets the prize if you haven't earned it fairly. Granted they didn't go through with it which is good for everybody involved, but the initial intention was not good.
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-22 07:39:18
December 22 2010 07:38 GMT
#197
On December 22 2010 16:34 Brutus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 16:28 vOdToasT wrote:
On December 22 2010 16:26 Brutus wrote:

Shame on you


Shame on you for not reading enough, actually.

They decided to check if it was ok, asking the organizers, instead of just doing it anyway. They could have done it - they decided to ask first. The organizers said no. They didnt do it.

You would seriously ban two people for asking an admin if something is allowed, and then not doing it when the admin says its not allowed. You would ban them for that?

Shame on YOU, man. Lol. I would hate to play in a tournament you organized.


just to think about match fixing and setting it up is enough for me. of course they shouldn't be banned because they didn't actually do it, but it is so dishonourable. How can you defend them?

And they actually eliminated the chance 1 of them will win it. Of 1 wins it expect a shitstorm


Well, you said you would ban them, did you not? Or did I misunderstand what you typed?

Sure, you can criticize their intention, but in the end, they didnt do anything. So stop acting like they did. All they are guilty of is considering and wanting to do something. If you dont like that, critisize it all you want, but PLEASE, dont act like thats not all they are guilty of.
If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
Grebliv
Profile Joined May 2006
Iceland800 Posts
December 22 2010 07:41 GMT
#198
On December 22 2010 16:34 Brutus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 22 2010 16:28 vOdToasT wrote:
On December 22 2010 16:26 Brutus wrote:

Shame on you


Shame on you for not reading enough, actually.

They decided to check if it was ok, asking the organizers, instead of just doing it anyway. They could have done it - they decided to ask first. The organizers said no. They didnt do it.

You would seriously ban two people for asking an admin if something is allowed, and then not doing it when the admin says its not allowed. You would ban them for that?

Shame on YOU, man. Lol. I would hate to play in a tournament you organized.


just to think about match fixing and setting it up is enough for me. of course they shouldn't be banned because they didn't actually do it, but it is so dishonourable. How can you defend them?

And they actually eliminated the chance 1 of them will win it. Of 1 wins it expect a shitstorm


to quote a someone

"r u for rela?"
ESV Mapmaking!
Aegeis
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1619 Posts
December 22 2010 07:41 GMT
#199
Wrong or right it just seems really unfair to the rest of the players in the tournament and bad sportsmanship.

Assuming 16/32 players showed up played all their games and come to learn that the the finalist aren't going to play is so unfair to them.
"Skills to pay the bills" - Artosis, https://twitter.com/AegeisSC2 ,http://www.tumblr.com/blog/socal-esports
MorNin
Profile Joined June 2010
United States443 Posts
December 22 2010 07:42 GMT
#200
I hope they didnt ask the Admins after the fact as a way to clean their hands... And i dont see how rigging finals is justified, any tournament it should be the best player wins..
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