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On December 22 2010 16:50 garbanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I wish people would read, and then in addition to reading try to understand what they read...
I'm very glad that Sjow came in here to clear up what actually ended up happening, and my opinion of neither player has been lowered.
If anything, I think this is a result of the cafe being greedy and putting on an event which discourages competition between the best players. If they were evenly matched, and they split the tournaments 9-9, then neither would get the large prize, but if one of them forfeited only 2 or the finals of the tournaments, then one could actually attain the large prize.
The cafe put up a very good prize with the expectation that no one would realistically be able to win it. I actually find that worse than what Morrow and Sjow were planning. They simply wanted to draw more people into their cafe, make more money, and then keep the prize.
It's really a very stupid format. It's like if for the GSL you won 100,000$ if you 5-0ed your opponent in the finals, but it would be split 2,000$ and 1,000$ if you did anything else... I'm all for the competitiveness of eSports and the spirit of competition, but at the end of the day it's professional gaming. They need to make money, hence the word professional. If anything, I think this reflects a need for more tournaments, sponsors, and larger prize pools, so progamers can actually make money and not need to find ways to maximize profit from the small amount of tournaments available. Assuming that the following assumptions are true: 1) you have to win 11/18 tournaments to get the "grand prize", 2) players have to pay to play in the tournament, 3) there are no spectators, then what you're saying is exactly correct. What they were planning is cheating, but they are cheating the house. They're not cheating you, the community or other players. They're just trying to beat the house. It's exactly cheating in the same way that card counting in blackjack at a casino is cheating. The house just wanted their money. The tournament structure ensures that if two equally skilled players competed then neither will win the grand prize and the house becomes richer. This is not the type of environment to develop healthy competition. Sjow and MorroW just wanted to game the system that was biased to begin with. I think they made the right decision by only having one of them compete in the end. + Show Spoiler +Of course I'm hoping that they realize this is the case and know the difference between this and other competition. Key difference lies in the 3 assumptions above.
Those were the restrictions of the tournament if I understand correctly. (Not sure about have to pay to play, but there must be some kind of restriction to join so the tournaments are time manageable).
Either way, the allure of the prize will bring more people into the cafe, so if there is an admittance fee to the establishment they make money. More people there means more people buy their products at the cafe. Also, the sad thing is, if both players (Morrow and Sjow) played, the cafe might have even used that as advertising to bring more people in who wanted to watch over their shoulders or talk to them after games, and then bring more money into the business, when both players had no shot at winning the grand prize.
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On December 22 2010 14:55 Subversion wrote:
It was all uncovered when hot headed Terran/Zerg-player MorroW...
Haha, so they're calling him terran/zerg now? Does anyone know the results of his experiment? I can't say I think he succeeded.
This seems like silly business. I would have said they were joking until I read that he said no one could read the chat cause of the quality. Now I think they're just dumb. Don't be a cheeta!
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On December 22 2010 16:49 TehForce wrote:
what the f***
morrow and sjow thought about a plan how to get the big prize. then they asked the officials. the officials said no. they didn't do it.
where is the problem? i really can't see it -.-
I don't think it's cheating.
Don't you agree, though, that it's kinda ridiculous they would ask that from the officials, like there was going to be any possibility for response other than no?
Then again, maybe not, because sjow and morrow was going to hurt the tournament anyway by having only one of them play to get the 11 wins, so they might as well submit to morrows and sjows wishes.
So it's not cheating, but can you still not see a problem?
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added sjow's responses to OP for the sake of fairness
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A hypothetical scenario:
Same tournament, Morrow and Sjow are the only strong players and they each make the finals every time. Without any discussion at all, Sjow forfeits the finals every time, Morrow wins the computer and gives nothing to Sjow. Live goes on normally.
Is this just as bad as them agreeing to do this and split the prizes beforehand? Bad, but not as bad? Totally okay? Even worse? I'm not totally sure where I stand on this right now so I wanna create some discussion about related scenarios.
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Jeez, so many dumb people in this thread it's unbelievable.
Match fixing is match fixing full stop. It's illegal in every other sport.
Does anyone want to watch a morrow sjow final when they already know morrow will win despite morrow being garbage at zerg compared with sjow's terran?
Not to mention the fact people could make a lot of money from bets which is the primary reason why match fixing is banned in the first place.
Seriously, I thought the sc2 community was supposed to be intelligent, I can't even believe people are trying to condone this behaviour, it's ridiculous.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 22 2010 16:49 TehForce wrote:
what the f***
morrow and sjow thought about a plan how to get the big prize. then they asked the officials. the officials said no. they didn't do it.
where is the problem? i really can't see it -.-
Would they have asked if they didn't get busted though? Frankly, I don't see how they thought this would be ok with the organizers. Would have made more sense to ask for a change in the rules.
I still don't understand how they thought this would be ok. I guess they didn't, given Sjow's question about streaming.
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I don't believe this is matchfixing, this is just preset results. Hypothetically they make the finals against each other, they'll have preset results, not toss matches in an effort to make it look real, in order to ensure that either one of them will play. They could, in theory, just play the series and one of the players would simply walk over the other and get a quick victory, but their method is much faster.
It makes complete sense. This isn't something that's going to blow up because people are betting on Sjow/Morrow on some sort of betting campaign and are expecting either one of them toss the game in order to gain money.
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Wow. This is NOT matchfixing. That involves secrecy. This is 100% out in the open, and now that they know it's not going to fly, they're not going to do it. Oh, and please stop the bitching.
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Sigh. The details of this case are open to interpretation so of course everyone brings in their opinions and interprets this to the extreme.
I think it was naive at best for Sjow/Morrow to be considering this (especially on an open stream), but if they indeed contacted tournament admins first I don't think anyone should be terribly hung up on this.
This should be a reminder to those who run tournaments: don't tempt the players to match fix with counterproductive prize setups.
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This is a bunch of nerds making mountains out of molehills. They're being a little odd but they're not really fixing big money tournament games. They tried to maximize their winnings without cheating.. and now that they know they can't do it, they're altering their plan.
People love e-tabloids I guess... but this is all hype and no crime.
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How do you know for the future, if they are playing in a final, that they won't fix it?
Right now, they didn't do anything forbidden, but the intention was there. (i mean, everyone with a bit of brain would know that your request would get denied)
It's just a huge image lose, and i personally, won't trust them anymore or their performance.
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On December 22 2010 17:05 Deindar wrote:
Wow. This is NOT matchfixing. That involves secrecy. This is 100% out in the open, and now that they know it's not going to fly, they're not going to do it. Oh, and please stop the bitching.
Yeah i agree with you its shouldnt damage their integrity.. Since they got caught and will no longer do it -_-'
Tournaments are for competition.. Best player should always come ahead, Fixing is wrong....
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On December 22 2010 16:16 Biggo wrote:
This is why I see it as cheating:
-To win the major prize the tournament organiser has ruled that you have to clearly be the best player (ie win 11/18 games)
-It seems neither Sjow or Morrow felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it
-They then tried to work out a plan to get the main prize by handing one free wins
So for me, the intention to cheat was there. That they asked the admin and didn't go ahead is a good thing, but then again, did you only check with the admin because this was leaked?
I agree with this post. I was planning to write something like this, but now I just need to support this one 
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On December 22 2010 16:49 Cathasaigh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:46 Askesis wrote:On December 22 2010 16:43 Cathasaigh wrote:On December 22 2010 16:35 Biggo wrote:On December 22 2010 16:24 Cathasaigh wrote:On December 22 2010 16:16 Biggo wrote:
This is why I see it as cheating:
-To win the major prize the tournament organiser has ruled that you have to clearly be the best player (ie win 11/18 games)
-It seems neither Sjow or Morrow felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it
-They then tried to work out a plan to get the main prize by handing one free wins
So for me, the intention to cheat was there. That they asked the admin and didn't go ahead is a good thing, but then again, did you only check with the admin because this was leaked? Felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it? It was clear they would most like meet in the finals every time and it could very easily end up split 9-9 or 8-10 between the two of them. So seeing as how they're both friends why would they screw each other out of prizes? It's not like this is some elaborate scheme to get one of them to the finals and hopefully win something, they were both gonna be meeting in the finals. But the way the competition was structured was that you don't get a prize for making it to the finals, you get the prize for winning the finals. My comment was they didn't feel confident they could win 11 finals, which is what the competition required. If you don't like a tournaments structure, don't join it. Don't try to conspire with the other best player in it to ensure one of you gets the prize if you haven't earned it fairly. Granted they didn't go through with it which is good for everybody involved, but the initial intention was not good. So don't join if you don't like the structure? Isn't that exactly what they ended up doing? Yes, after being caught by the tournament directors. Do you really think they actually approached the TDs after talking about this and asked them permission to fix the finals matches, or do you think the TD's contacted THEM and asked them what was up? So basically you're assuming that they didn't check themselves and thus automatically assuming that they did something wrong with no proof?
Yes, I am making that assumption. Just like you are assuming that they themselves went and asked permission. Which assumption is more logical?:
1) They find a clever way to cheat the tourny and win a bigger prize. Then, instead of just carrying out the match-fixing, they decide to ask is they are allowed to fix the match beforehand (because, you know, they had every reason to think the tournament would agree to give them an unearned 6k prize, right?). After finding out that no, they are not allowed to match-fix, Morrow decides not to or is not allowed play the tournament.
or
2) They find a clever way to cheat the tourny and win a bigger prize. Someone observes them making the arrangement and reports them, and the directors ask them to explain the situation. They do, and then Morrow decides not to or is not allowed to play the tournament.
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On December 22 2010 17:00 huameng wrote:
A hypothetical scenario:
Same tournament, Morrow and Sjow are the only strong players and they each make the finals every time. Without any discussion at all, Sjow forfeits the finals every time, Morrow wins the computer and gives nothing to Sjow. Live goes on normally.
Is this just as bad as them agreeing to do this and split the prizes beforehand? Bad, but not as bad? Totally okay? Even worse? I'm not totally sure where I stand on this right now so I wanna create some discussion about related scenarios.
Is this a serious question? No, it's not okay to enter a competition and forfeit the final without a good reason.
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On December 22 2010 17:03 ShootingStar wrote:
Jeez, so many dumb people in this thread it's unbelievable.
Match fixing is match fixing full stop. It's illegal in every other sport.
Does anyone want to watch a morrow sjow final when they already know morrow will win despite morrow being garbage at zerg compared with sjow's terran?
Not to mention the fact people could make a lot of money from bets which is the primary reason why match fixing is banned in the first place.
Seriously, I thought the sc2 community was supposed to be intelligent, I can't even believe people are trying to condone this behaviour, it's ridiculous.
Uhm, you talking about intelligence is pretty interesting.
1. No audience
2. No betting
Your entire argumentation is null and void because you have no facts right.
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On December 22 2010 14:57 ShootingStars wrote:
your point? if you arent the better player it doesnt matter really =/
if you want to stop them from match fixing, go to the tournament and beat them so they cant fix the final
matchfixing is FINE. it doesnt affect you... they ARE top players.
On December 22 2010 17:03 ShootingStar wrote:
Jeez, so many dumb people in this thread it's unbelievable.
Match fixing is match fixing full stop. It's illegal in every other sport.
Does anyone want to watch a morrow sjow final when they already know morrow will win despite morrow being garbage at zerg compared with sjow's terran?
Not to mention the fact people could make a lot of money from bets which is the primary reason why match fixing is banned in the first place.
Seriously, I thought the sc2 community was supposed to be intelligent, I can't even believe people are trying to condone this behaviour, it's ridiculous.
Very similar names but contrasting opinions. Troll or unique user?
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On December 22 2010 16:59 Subversion wrote:
added sjow's responses to OP for the sake of fairness
Great, thanks. Should help to clear up a few things.
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On December 22 2010 16:50 garbanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I wish people would read, and then in addition to reading try to understand what they read...
I'm very glad that Sjow came in here to clear up what actually ended up happening, and my opinion of neither player has been lowered.
If anything, I think this is a result of the cafe being greedy and putting on an event which discourages competition between the best players. If they were evenly matched, and they split the tournaments 9-9, then neither would get the large prize, but if one of them forfeited only 2 or the finals of the tournaments, then one could actually attain the large prize.
The cafe put up a very good prize with the expectation that no one would realistically be able to win it. I actually find that worse than what Morrow and Sjow were planning. They simply wanted to draw more people into their cafe, make more money, and then keep the prize.
It's really a very stupid format. It's like if for the GSL you won 100,000$ if you 5-0ed your opponent in the finals, but it would be split 2,000$ and 1,000$ if you did anything else... I'm all for the competitiveness of eSports and the spirit of competition, but at the end of the day it's professional gaming. They need to make money, hence the word professional. If anything, I think this reflects a need for more tournaments, sponsors, and larger prize pools, so progamers can actually make money and not need to find ways to maximize profit from the small amount of tournaments available. Assuming that the following assumptions are true: 1) you have to win 11/18 tournaments to get the "grand prize", 2) players have to pay to play in the tournament, 3) there are no spectators, then what you're saying is exactly correct. What they were planning is cheating, but they are cheating the house. They're not cheating you, the community or other players. They're just trying to beat the house. It's exactly cheating in the same way that card counting in blackjack at a casino is cheating. The house just wanted their money. The tournament structure ensures that if two equally skilled players competed then neither will win the grand prize and the house becomes richer. This is not the type of environment to develop healthy competition. Sjow and MorroW just wanted to game the system that was biased to begin with. I think they made the right decision by only having one of them compete in the end. + Show Spoiler +Of course I'm hoping that they realize this is the case and know the difference between this and other competition. Key difference lies in the 3 assumptions above.
Wtf? So you are saying it is OK to cheat the house? Any tournament has rules, if you do not like those rules do not join the tournament (of if those rules break some law report them).
By this statement of yours I would guess you also do not want to pay taxes as that is ONLY cheating the "house"?!
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EPT
