|
On December 22 2010 17:26 Impervious wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 17:15 -Archangel- wrote:On December 22 2010 16:50 garbanzo wrote:On December 22 2010 16:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I wish people would read, and then in addition to reading try to understand what they read...
I'm very glad that Sjow came in here to clear up what actually ended up happening, and my opinion of neither player has been lowered.
If anything, I think this is a result of the cafe being greedy and putting on an event which discourages competition between the best players. If they were evenly matched, and they split the tournaments 9-9, then neither would get the large prize, but if one of them forfeited only 2 or the finals of the tournaments, then one could actually attain the large prize.
The cafe put up a very good prize with the expectation that no one would realistically be able to win it. I actually find that worse than what Morrow and Sjow were planning. They simply wanted to draw more people into their cafe, make more money, and then keep the prize.
It's really a very stupid format. It's like if for the GSL you won 100,000$ if you 5-0ed your opponent in the finals, but it would be split 2,000$ and 1,000$ if you did anything else... I'm all for the competitiveness of eSports and the spirit of competition, but at the end of the day it's professional gaming. They need to make money, hence the word professional. If anything, I think this reflects a need for more tournaments, sponsors, and larger prize pools, so progamers can actually make money and not need to find ways to maximize profit from the small amount of tournaments available. Assuming that the following assumptions are true: 1) you have to win 11/18 tournaments to get the "grand prize", 2) players have to pay to play in the tournament, 3) there are no spectators, then what you're saying is exactly correct. What they were planning is cheating, but they are cheating the house. They're not cheating you, the community or other players. They're just trying to beat the house. It's exactly cheating in the same way that card counting in blackjack at a casino is cheating. The house just wanted their money. The tournament structure ensures that if two equally skilled players competed then neither will win the grand prize and the house becomes richer. This is not the type of environment to develop healthy competition. Sjow and MorroW just wanted to game the system that was biased to begin with. I think they made the right decision by only having one of them compete in the end. + Show Spoiler +Of course I'm hoping that they realize this is the case and know the difference between this and other competition. Key difference lies in the 3 assumptions above. Wtf? So you are saying it is OK to cheat the house? Any tournament has rules, if you do not like those rules do not join the tournament (of if those rules break some law report them). By this statement of yours I would guess you also do not want to pay taxes as that is ONLY cheating the "house"?! They have more to gain by working together than by playing against eachother. If they are playing for the reward at the end, and they would actually make more by working together, then it's a poorly setup system..... Tbh, I don't see anything wrong with it - it's kinda like how many types of auto-racing near the end of the season will often work..... One teammate purposely does worse than he could have done, so the other can maximize his points, as well as doing better in the constructors championships, and hopefully move up the standings/secure a better position; and as a whole, the team does better than they would have otherwise. It's just a poorly designed prize system. If it was "you have to win the most tournaments to get the "grand prize"" instead, then yes, there would be a problem with them working together, because there is no real benefit of it. All they seem to be doing is taking advantage of some clever marketing scheme designed to prevent the "grand prize" from being won. When part of your motivation to take part in the tournament is the money you'd make from it, they're definitely making the right choice.
Your rationalization is all cool and well but it is still cheating. It is because of this way of thinking corruption is present in all parts of life. Get your head straight before you grow up and move to a real world or you might end up caught with your hand in a cookie jar and end up doing time.
|
if the tournaments not streamed, why the fuck care ?
its your right as a human to lose, as much as it is to win. If they want to give away their individual right of winning to someone else, its their own personal business. its their free will.
|
So...two players try to fix a tourny, then change it to simply being that if they meet in the last match of any of the series of tournaments they have a preset result instead of playing? They wanted to play the system and get a sweet computer on top of the winnings they both already expected to get a chunk of.
The first one is blatant cheating, the second is just taking a tournament and turning it into a not tournament. It's silly to try and keep the players from getting the grand prize by requiring an 11/18 wins for it, but it's just plain unethical to cheat the system like that.
|
On December 22 2010 17:31 isSoCool wrote:
if the tournaments not streamed, why the fuck care ?
Seriously?! I though people in Sweden were fair and law abiding?!
|
On December 22 2010 17:28 Whiladan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 17:25 decemberscalm wrote:On December 22 2010 17:19 CanucksJC wrote:
Meanwhile in Korea,
Savior: Hey Luxury, I betted $1,000 on you to lose tonight, so you should throw away the game.
Luxury: Only if I get half share.
Savior: Ok, deal.
Now this,
SjoW: Hey Morrow, one of us gets a computer if we fix matches, so let's do it.
Morrow: Only if you throw the games and I get computer.
SjoW: Ok, pay me back later.
What's so different? I don't even understand how some people are actually defending these assholes. Competition is a competition, and they tried to fix it, now everyone knows, so they drop the plan. Pathetic. Thats an entirely different scenario. No outside gambling is taking place. They even asked the admins about it. As far as we know they weren't caught, but rather they asked. The silly format of the tournament promotes this. Too lazy to find the post, but someone remarked on how the tournament format would be like the GSL only rewarding players who 4-0'ed their opponents. Thats utter ridiculousness. And SERIOUSLY, chill until you know if they were going to secretively do it, everything seems just like speculation right now. The important factor is knowing if they were going to do it WITHOUT asking the tournament admins first. Otherwise thats seriously just players asking if they can make the ridiculous prize format less ridiculous. The only difference is one involves winnings from a third-party taking bets, and the other involves winnings from the tournament itself. The distinction isn't really noteworthy; neither have any place between honorable players of any competition I love how RIGHT after your post is an example of a competition where it is deemed acceptable. It depends on the tournament. The tournament organizers could have just as easily sayed "Yeah, ok, you two DID win against your opponents, you can just click the surrender button, its your match." But in all seriousness, the tournament would most likely count on the higher tier prizes being advertisement and bait for bigger names while still minimizing the cost of the tournament by having lower actual prize money.
|
well, at least they aren't hiding anything. i don't think its illegal or anything if there are no bets being placed. just a let down to the tournament organizers/players/spectators(if any) and now we'll be seeing matchfixing rumours whether they exist or not in the future
|
i just honestly dont see why we care.
one of them is basically guaranteed to win the prize anyway, because theyre the 2 best players, so its not ruining anyone elses chances of winning
and the final isnt streamed or even in front of an audience so theyre not cheating any viewers out of good games
|
On December 22 2010 17:25 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 17:19 CanucksJC wrote:
Meanwhile in Korea,
Savior: Hey Luxury, I betted $1,000 on you to lose tonight, so you should throw away the game.
Luxury: Only if I get half share.
Savior: Ok, deal.
Now this,
SjoW: Hey Morrow, one of us gets a computer if we fix matches, so let's do it.
Morrow: Only if you throw the games and I get computer.
SjoW: Ok, pay me back later.
What's so different? I don't even understand how some people are actually defending these assholes. Competition is a competition, and they tried to fix it, now everyone knows, so they drop the plan. Pathetic. Thats an entirely different scenario. No outside gambling is taking place. They even asked the admins about it. As far as we know they weren't caught, but rather they asked. The silly format of the tournament promotes this. Too lazy to find the post, but someone remarked on how the tournament format would be like the GSL only rewarding players who 4-0'ed their opponents. Thats utter ridiculousness. And SERIOUSLY, chill until you know if they were going to secretively do it, everything seems just like speculation right now. The important factor is knowing if they were going to do it WITHOUT asking the tournament admins first. Otherwise thats seriously just players asking if they can make the ridiculous prize format less ridiculous.
the whole point is if you want e-sports to grow, this type of negativity needs to be kept at a minimal regardless of the "severity" of the action involved. one person does it, people start getting ideas like oh what don't I do it too? Of course the argument goes back "well this scenario is completely different, it's not THAT big of a deal", blah blah but the point is if you don't do this, the problem and this whole mess and the endless arguing would not exist in the first place. (eg this thread)
|
On December 22 2010 17:32 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 17:31 isSoCool wrote:
if the tournaments not streamed, why the fuck care ? Seriously?! I though people in Sweden were fair and law abiding?!
Judging by nationality is rarely going to get you anywhere.
|
On December 22 2010 17:32 Postman wrote:
So...two players try to fix a tourny, then change it to simply being that if they meet in the last match of any of the series of tournaments they have a preset result instead of playing? They wanted to play the system and get a sweet computer on top of the winnings they both already expected to get a chunk of.
The first one is blatant cheating, the second is just taking a tournament and turning it into a not tournament. It's silly to try and keep the players from getting the grand prize by requiring an 11/18 wins for it, but it's just plain unethical to cheat the system like that.
It is a silly as asking a winner of the EG tourny to beat Idra for the computer after that person already won in the finals.
You are people looking at this the wrong way. The computer is not the main prize, it is the extra prize if someone really good manages to outplay all others all 11 times.
Considering this normal is same as considering normal for players to let someone win 25 times in a row on Gisado King of the Hill to let him get the prize 
|
On December 22 2010 17:29 Boblion wrote:
It reminds me of poker tourneys, when finalists agree to split the prizes.
I have seen that in Sc2 too. DeMuslim and SarenS off racing each other ( i think it was a Go4Sc2 but i'm not sure ).
Problem is that in poker tournaments there is a set prize. This prize got bigger with each finals win.
What if someone conspired to rig king of the hill and then share money? That is the same sort of structure to this
|
Russian Federation89 Posts
Lot of anger in this thread, as well as people reading the first page or two and not reading the rest.
My ethical judgement on this scenario is going to be based purely on Utilitarian analysis.
Who benefits from this:
Morrow, Sjow
Who is hurt by this:
Sponsor, SC2 Community (I don't actually feel like the community is in anyway hurt by this, and I can't really assign a value to it), Morrow and Sjow if the community finds out (and they did)
Essentially, Morrow and Sjow split a computer and the sponsor loses it. Other competitors had no chance as is, so I don't see them directly hurt in this scenario in anyway. There was also no audience, so I don't factor that in either. I feel as if it is a much better overall gain for Morrow and Sjow as aspiring pro-gamers to win an event from a sponsor to whom a computer would not be of a big financial loss. With such a horrible structure for a tournament, DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY to avoid paying out the main prize (And you people talk about ethics in this thread and don't even look at this?) it only makes sense for them to find a logical resolution that works for both of them.
While the exact details of whether or not they did this before asking the admins of the tournament is up in the air, the damage to their reputation is not likely to be undone and they have paid for whatever sins they have earned.
Now it is up for each person individually to consider the facts and make up their own mind. Stop trying to force your opinion upon others.
I think they are silly for talking about this on a live stream, but don't blame them for their actual actions.
|
On December 22 2010 17:32 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 17:31 isSoCool wrote:
if the tournaments not streamed, why the fuck care ? Seriously?! I though people in Sweden were fair and law abiding?!
Don't listen to morons like that, they are just 15 year olds who just recently have gone into puberty thinking they own the world.
OnTopic: It's a shame that they even considered 'match fixing' or whatever you'd like to call it. Don't really see the honor in doing something like that, even if you ask the officials about it, it's still wrong.
|
On December 22 2010 17:30 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 17:09 hypercube wrote:On December 22 2010 17:00 huameng wrote:
A hypothetical scenario:
Same tournament, Morrow and Sjow are the only strong players and they each make the finals every time. Without any discussion at all, Sjow forfeits the finals every time, Morrow wins the computer and gives nothing to Sjow. Live goes on normally.
Is this just as bad as them agreeing to do this and split the prizes beforehand? Bad, but not as bad? Totally okay? Even worse? I'm not totally sure where I stand on this right now so I wanna create some discussion about related scenarios. Is this a serious question? No, it's not okay to enter a competition and forfeit the final without a good reason. Yes it's a serious question. Why isn't it okay? No one is being harmed right? This tournament apparently isn't being streamed or anything, (maybe wrong about this idk) so there are no viewers losing out on an exciting finals.
If anything, it harms the people that Sjow beat beforehand in that scenario. The defeated players all entered for the chance to win, and Sjow is reaching the finals and essentially giving up, for no reason, an opportunity that many others would gladly take. But this is also open to discussion...
|
On December 22 2010 17:31 isSoCool wrote:
if the tournaments not streamed, why the fuck care ?
its your right as a human to lose, as much as it is to win. If they want to give away their individual right of winning to someone else, its their own personal business. its their free will.
You really don't see anything wrong with people agreeing to lose matches so the other guy wins and repays you later? Isn't the definition of match fixing that a player loses so they would get some monetary gain from doing that.
This is pretty much the same thing as the korean betting scandal just with less money involved.
|
On December 22 2010 17:34 Whiladan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 17:32 -Archangel- wrote:On December 22 2010 17:31 isSoCool wrote:
if the tournaments not streamed, why the fuck care ? Seriously?! I though people in Sweden were fair and law abiding?! Judging by nationality is rarely going to get you anywhere.
I make an exception in the case of countries like Sweden where I heard all best about the local population. But it looks like those stories were either really old or really wrong.
|
Some points of interest for me
1. Shouldn't have to discuss this in public (the 'prize fixing')
2. The tournament's format for winning the grand prize is pretty blah (and opened the loophole)
3. Man, they were sure confident that they would meet at least 11 times
4. I hope not one was betting behind the scenes, (but if they should meet and just forfeit i think the bets would be void)
5. They should know better that that due to their status, but if they came clean to the officials so i don't know about that
6. Little steps like this are dangerous, kinda like schoolchildren cheating in class and growing up to be f*cked up adults just because of the *no harm no foul* and *not caught not guilty mentality*
Not saying that i'm a saint, but it just makes me a little sad - mostly because they aren't no-names and their actions affect a larger circle
|
Can someone pls post the rule that say youre NOT allowed to lose cuz im confused.
|
On December 22 2010 17:30 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 17:09 hypercube wrote:On December 22 2010 17:00 huameng wrote:
A hypothetical scenario:
Same tournament, Morrow and Sjow are the only strong players and they each make the finals every time. Without any discussion at all, Sjow forfeits the finals every time, Morrow wins the computer and gives nothing to Sjow. Live goes on normally.
Is this just as bad as them agreeing to do this and split the prizes beforehand? Bad, but not as bad? Totally okay? Even worse? I'm not totally sure where I stand on this right now so I wanna create some discussion about related scenarios. Is this a serious question? No, it's not okay to enter a competition and forfeit the final without a good reason. Yes it's a serious question. Why isn't it okay? No one is being harmed right? This tournament apparently isn't being streamed or anything, (maybe wrong about this idk) so there are no viewers losing out on an exciting finals.
Cause it's a competition and the organizers actually expect you to compete. A tournament is supposed to be more than just deciding who gets the prize.
|
hahahaha. this is a such a joke. forget the cheating. these guys don't have the competitor drive to win everything?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
