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On December 22 2010 16:35 Biggo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:24 Cathasaigh wrote:On December 22 2010 16:16 Biggo wrote:
This is why I see it as cheating:
-To win the major prize the tournament organiser has ruled that you have to clearly be the best player (ie win 11/18 games)
-It seems neither Sjow or Morrow felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it
-They then tried to work out a plan to get the main prize by handing one free wins
So for me, the intention to cheat was there. That they asked the admin and didn't go ahead is a good thing, but then again, did you only check with the admin because this was leaked? Felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it? It was clear they would most like meet in the finals every time and it could very easily end up split 9-9 or 8-10 between the two of them. So seeing as how they're both friends why would they screw each other out of prizes? It's not like this is some elaborate scheme to get one of them to the finals and hopefully win something, they were both gonna be meeting in the finals. But the way the competition was structured was that you don't get a prize for making it to the finals, you get the prize for winning the finals. My comment was they didn't feel confident they could win 11 finals, which is what the competition required. If you don't like a tournaments structure, don't join it. Don't try to conspire with the other best player in it to ensure one of you gets the prize if you haven't earned it fairly. Granted they didn't go through with it which is good for everybody involved, but the initial intention was not good.
So don't join if you don't like the structure? Isn't that exactly what they ended up doing?
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On December 22 2010 16:38 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:34 Brutus wrote:On December 22 2010 16:28 vOdToasT wrote:On December 22 2010 16:26 Brutus wrote:
Shame on you Shame on you for not reading enough, actually. They decided to check if it was ok, asking the organizers, instead of just doing it anyway. They could have done it - they decided to ask first. The organizers said no. They didnt do it. You would seriously ban two people for asking an admin if something is allowed, and then not doing it when the admin says its not allowed. You would ban them for that? Shame on YOU, man. Lol. I would hate to play in a tournament you organized. just to think about match fixing and setting it up is enough for me. of course they shouldn't be banned because they didn't actually do it, but it is so dishonourable. How can you defend them? And they actually eliminated the chance 1 of them will win it. Of 1 wins it expect a shitstorm Well, you said you would ban them, did you not? Or did I misunderstand what you typed? Sure, you can criticize their intention, but in the end, they didnt do anything. So stop acting like they did. All they are guilty of is considering and wanting to do something. If you dont like that, critisize it all you want, but PLEASE, dont act like thats not all they are guilty of.
No I admit I overreacted, but its because I am so disappointed in arguably one of the eu players.
And yes they did something, that is setting up a match fix. Just because they didn't do it doesn't make it right. And you are right, they didn't do anything bannable, but you have to admit it is a fucked up thing to do.
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so they agree on whoever wins "this many times" then they win and the other matches dont count and will result in throwing away the other matches so one of them get the grand prize?
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On December 22 2010 16:11 freeto wrote:
I think what hes saying is that, since they're pretty much guaranteed the finals, one of them is going to win every tournament anyway. all their arrangement meant was that they would plan which one it would be ahead of time. they're not cheating anyone else out of a chance at the prize or anything.
the reason sjow thinks this is ok in this tournament and not a large one is because this tournament has no audience to disappoint with a lackluster or 1 sided game. their games could be 1 minute or 2 hours and it wouldn't make a difference because theres' no one spectating them.
im not sure if the underlying morals of this are good or not, but in this case the "cheating" doesn't hurt any other players
So they were only attempting to cheat the tournament host, not other players, so it's ok?
Say they both reached the finals in all 18 events. Say they are even-caliber players, and each win 9 each playing legit. Cool, they win whatever amounts they win, but neither of them win the Grand Prize because they didn't win the required 11 events.
Then they think "well hey, we're obviously the best players here and will get in the Finals, so instead of competing and neither of us get the big prize, we'll just have one of us win them all and get the extra $6k in prizes that neither of us would have gotten legit".
How can you not see anything wrong with that? And yea, that's a stupid tournament structure, but just because the structure is stupid doesn't give them the right to cheat it.
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It would be a very fucked up thing to do. Its lame that they would have done it had it been allowed, but at least they didnt break any rules, so they maintained a decent level of honour.
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21 Posts
All I got from this thread is that Rakaka is pretty terrible. Well, and that some people are incredibly quick to judge others.
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On December 22 2010 16:43 Cathasaigh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:35 Biggo wrote:On December 22 2010 16:24 Cathasaigh wrote:On December 22 2010 16:16 Biggo wrote:
This is why I see it as cheating:
-To win the major prize the tournament organiser has ruled that you have to clearly be the best player (ie win 11/18 games)
-It seems neither Sjow or Morrow felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it
-They then tried to work out a plan to get the main prize by handing one free wins
So for me, the intention to cheat was there. That they asked the admin and didn't go ahead is a good thing, but then again, did you only check with the admin because this was leaked? Felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it? It was clear they would most like meet in the finals every time and it could very easily end up split 9-9 or 8-10 between the two of them. So seeing as how they're both friends why would they screw each other out of prizes? It's not like this is some elaborate scheme to get one of them to the finals and hopefully win something, they were both gonna be meeting in the finals. But the way the competition was structured was that you don't get a prize for making it to the finals, you get the prize for winning the finals. My comment was they didn't feel confident they could win 11 finals, which is what the competition required. If you don't like a tournaments structure, don't join it. Don't try to conspire with the other best player in it to ensure one of you gets the prize if you haven't earned it fairly. Granted they didn't go through with it which is good for everybody involved, but the initial intention was not good. So don't join if you don't like the structure? Isn't that exactly what they ended up doing?
Yes, after being caught by the tournament directors. Do you really think they actually approached the TDs after talking about this and asked them permission to fix the finals matches, or do you think the TD's contacted THEM and asked them what was up?
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On December 22 2010 16:44 Askesis wrote:
So they were only attempting to cheat the tournament host, not other players, so it's ok?
Say they both reached the finals in all 18 events. Say they are even-caliber players, and each win 9 each playing legit. Cool, they win whatever amounts they win, but neither of them win the Grand Prize because they didn't win the required 11 events.
Then they think "well hey, we're obviously the best players here and will get in the Finals, so instead of competing and neither of us get the big prize, we'll just have one of us win them all and get the extra $6k in prizes that neither of us would have gotten legit".
How can you not see anything wrong with that? And yea, that's a stupid tournament structure, but just because the structure is stupid doesn't give them the right to cheat it.
It's pretty easy not to see anything wrong with it when they never actually attempted to cheat anyone, ever. How do you find the time to write miles long awful posts when reading the thread for a second would make it perfectly clear how stupid it is?
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On December 22 2010 16:43 Brutus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:38 vOdToasT wrote:On December 22 2010 16:34 Brutus wrote:On December 22 2010 16:28 vOdToasT wrote:On December 22 2010 16:26 Brutus wrote:
Shame on you Shame on you for not reading enough, actually. They decided to check if it was ok, asking the organizers, instead of just doing it anyway. They could have done it - they decided to ask first. The organizers said no. They didnt do it. You would seriously ban two people for asking an admin if something is allowed, and then not doing it when the admin says its not allowed. You would ban them for that? Shame on YOU, man. Lol. I would hate to play in a tournament you organized. just to think about match fixing and setting it up is enough for me. of course they shouldn't be banned because they didn't actually do it, but it is so dishonourable. How can you defend them? And they actually eliminated the chance 1 of them will win it. Of 1 wins it expect a shitstorm Well, you said you would ban them, did you not? Or did I misunderstand what you typed? Sure, you can criticize their intention, but in the end, they didnt do anything. So stop acting like they did. All they are guilty of is considering and wanting to do something. If you dont like that, critisize it all you want, but PLEASE, dont act like thats not all they are guilty of. No I admit I overreacted, but its because I am so disappointed in arguably one of the eu players. And yes they did something, that is setting up a match fix. Just because they didn't do it doesn't make it right. And you are right, they didn't do anything bannable, but you have to admit it is a fucked up thing to do.
No one has to admit it's a fucked up thing to do because all they wanted was so that they could both have fun playing the tournaments so they came up with an idea that would let them both play but not screw one out of the top prize. They even asked before hand to see if it was allowed but since it wasn't they didn't do it. So no, it's not at all a fucked up thing to do.
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I knew IdrA was always right about MorroW all this time.
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On December 22 2010 16:46 Askesis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:43 Cathasaigh wrote:On December 22 2010 16:35 Biggo wrote:On December 22 2010 16:24 Cathasaigh wrote:On December 22 2010 16:16 Biggo wrote:
This is why I see it as cheating:
-To win the major prize the tournament organiser has ruled that you have to clearly be the best player (ie win 11/18 games)
-It seems neither Sjow or Morrow felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it
-They then tried to work out a plan to get the main prize by handing one free wins
So for me, the intention to cheat was there. That they asked the admin and didn't go ahead is a good thing, but then again, did you only check with the admin because this was leaked? Felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it? It was clear they would most like meet in the finals every time and it could very easily end up split 9-9 or 8-10 between the two of them. So seeing as how they're both friends why would they screw each other out of prizes? It's not like this is some elaborate scheme to get one of them to the finals and hopefully win something, they were both gonna be meeting in the finals. But the way the competition was structured was that you don't get a prize for making it to the finals, you get the prize for winning the finals. My comment was they didn't feel confident they could win 11 finals, which is what the competition required. If you don't like a tournaments structure, don't join it. Don't try to conspire with the other best player in it to ensure one of you gets the prize if you haven't earned it fairly. Granted they didn't go through with it which is good for everybody involved, but the initial intention was not good. So don't join if you don't like the structure? Isn't that exactly what they ended up doing? Yes, after being caught by the tournament directors. Do you really think they actually approached the TDs after talking about this and asked them permission to fix the finals matches, or do you think the TD's contacted THEM and asked them what was up?
So basically you're assuming that they didn't check themselves and thus automatically assuming that they did something wrong with no proof?
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what the f***
morrow and sjow thought about a plan how to get the big prize. then they asked the officials. the officials said no. they didn't do it.
where is the problem? i really can't see it -.-
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On December 22 2010 16:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I wish people would read, and then in addition to reading try to understand what they read...
I'm very glad that Sjow came in here to clear up what actually ended up happening, and my opinion of neither player has been lowered.
If anything, I think this is a result of the cafe being greedy and putting on an event which discourages competition between the best players. If they were evenly matched, and they split the tournaments 9-9, then neither would get the large prize, but if one of them forfeited only 2 or the finals of the tournaments, then one could actually attain the large prize.
The cafe put up a very good prize with the expectation that no one would realistically be able to win it. I actually find that worse than what Morrow and Sjow were planning. They simply wanted to draw more people into their cafe, make more money, and then keep the prize.
It's really a very stupid format. It's like if for the GSL you won 100,000$ if you 5-0ed your opponent in the finals, but it would be split 2,000$ and 1,000$ if you did anything else... I'm all for the competitiveness of eSports and the spirit of competition, but at the end of the day it's professional gaming. They need to make money, hence the word professional. If anything, I think this reflects a need for more tournaments, sponsors, and larger prize pools, so progamers can actually make money and not need to find ways to maximize profit from the small amount of tournaments available.
Assuming that the following assumptions are true:
1) you have to win 11/18 tournaments to get the "grand prize",
2) players have to pay to play in the tournament,
3) there are no spectators,
then what you're saying is exactly correct.
What they were planning is cheating, but they are cheating the house. They're not cheating you, the community or other players. They're just trying to beat the house. It's exactly cheating in the same way that card counting in blackjack at a casino is cheating.
The house just wanted their money. The tournament structure ensures that if two equally skilled players competed then neither will win the grand prize and the house becomes richer. This is not the type of environment to develop healthy competition.
Sjow and MorroW just wanted to game the system that was biased to begin with. I think they made the right decision by only having one of them compete in the end.
+ Show Spoiler +Of course I'm hoping that they realize this is the case and know the difference between this and other competition. Key difference lies in the 3 assumptions above.
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it matters because it's a competitive environment. there was an agreement between players outside the tournament that could have changed the outcome of the tournament. the real question and the reason we are upset is not what happened but what would have happened if the public had not gotten wind of this.
same concept, using this mentality..a player should withdraw from GSL finals and split the 85k and 25k=55k each. i mean, it only affects those 2 players right? imagine how upsetting that would be
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On December 22 2010 16:43 Cathasaigh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:35 Biggo wrote:On December 22 2010 16:24 Cathasaigh wrote:On December 22 2010 16:16 Biggo wrote:
This is why I see it as cheating:
-To win the major prize the tournament organiser has ruled that you have to clearly be the best player (ie win 11/18 games)
-It seems neither Sjow or Morrow felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it
-They then tried to work out a plan to get the main prize by handing one free wins
So for me, the intention to cheat was there. That they asked the admin and didn't go ahead is a good thing, but then again, did you only check with the admin because this was leaked? Felt confident enough in their own skill to believe they could do it? It was clear they would most like meet in the finals every time and it could very easily end up split 9-9 or 8-10 between the two of them. So seeing as how they're both friends why would they screw each other out of prizes? It's not like this is some elaborate scheme to get one of them to the finals and hopefully win something, they were both gonna be meeting in the finals. But the way the competition was structured was that you don't get a prize for making it to the finals, you get the prize for winning the finals. My comment was they didn't feel confident they could win 11 finals, which is what the competition required. If you don't like a tournaments structure, don't join it. Don't try to conspire with the other best player in it to ensure one of you gets the prize if you haven't earned it fairly. Granted they didn't go through with it which is good for everybody involved, but the initial intention was not good. So don't join if you don't like the structure? Isn't that exactly what they ended up doing?
They actually checked first, meaning they intended to at that time, but decided not to once they found out they couldn't. I am just saying it is poor form/sport for them to consider it in the first place, but luckily they did check
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Are u acctually judging someone from this?
The only facts here are the sentences described.
I saw the chat and know what they acctually were talking about, you guys just been corrupted by the media. They take out 3 sentences from a chat which was much longer.
Morrow:
*We can play the finals
*But only if we reward the win to whom we want
Meaning they will only "play" the final(tour) if they are allowed to give reward to whichever they want.
ERGO: The one who looses the first one will not participate in the rest of the tours.
EDIT: Only confirmed they would cooperate over the prize. Meaning what i just wrote above.
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On December 22 2010 16:46 iggyfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:44 Askesis wrote:
So they were only attempting to cheat the tournament host, not other players, so it's ok?
Say they both reached the finals in all 18 events. Say they are even-caliber players, and each win 9 each playing legit. Cool, they win whatever amounts they win, but neither of them win the Grand Prize because they didn't win the required 11 events.
Then they think "well hey, we're obviously the best players here and will get in the Finals, so instead of competing and neither of us get the big prize, we'll just have one of us win them all and get the extra $6k in prizes that neither of us would have gotten legit".
How can you not see anything wrong with that? And yea, that's a stupid tournament structure, but just because the structure is stupid doesn't give them the right to cheat it. It's pretty easy not to see anything wrong with it when they never actually attempted to cheat anyone, ever. How do you find the time to write miles long awful posts when reading the thread for a second would make it perfectly clear how stupid it is?
I read the entire thread, thank you. Sorry my 7-8 sentences seem like an extraordinary long post, but I somehow had the five minutes free that it took me to write that.
One of the accused even admitted to trying do it, I really don't get how you think nothing is wrong? Perhaps YOU should read the thread... Or are you trying to say that it's acceptable because they were caught beforehand and were prevented from doing it? So conspiring to cheat is fine, as long as they are thwarted before they actually carry out the plan?
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SjoW explained this way back on page five or something. They talked about it, and asked the tournament, got a no so they didn't do it. For what it's worth garbanzo makes a great post as well.
Mods, please edit the OP and add SjoWs response or change the topic title..
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On December 22 2010 14:55 Subversion wrote:
Morrow thinks his stream quality is too bad for anyone to be able to read, he assures SjoW of this when SjoW asks him "Are you streaming?"
Stefan "MoroN" Andersson ...
User was warned for this post
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On December 22 2010 15:00 ShootingStars wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 14:59 charlie420247 wrote:On December 22 2010 14:57 ShootingStars wrote:
your point? if you arent the better player it doesnt matter really =/
if you want to stop them from match fixing, go to the tournament and beat them so they cant fix the final
matchfixing is FINE. it doesnt affect you... they ARE top players. this is a TERRIBLE TERRIBLE attitude to have towards cheating. cheating is cheating is cheating. funny, how is matchfixing CHEATING? is it map hacking? no. its an agreement.
Please, please return you'r SC2 game and don't post anymore. You are either a troll or you are simply a retard fanboi who would back anything you'r hero does. Whether this is true or not I don't know but if it is, how is that fine? If everyone fixed matches how would that be ok? I don't even want to waste my time explaining how this is a bad thing that can ruin e-sports and has already made any mistake a pro makes in an important game go under the spot light so people can discuss whether it was a fixed match. BTW, fixing is cheating.
On December 22 2010 16:46 iggyfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 16:44 Askesis wrote:
So they were only attempting to cheat the tournament host, not other players, so it's ok?
Say they both reached the finals in all 18 events. Say they are even-caliber players, and each win 9 each playing legit. Cool, they win whatever amounts they win, but neither of them win the Grand Prize because they didn't win the required 11 events.
Then they think "well hey, we're obviously the best players here and will get in the Finals, so instead of competing and neither of us get the big prize, we'll just have one of us win them all and get the extra $6k in prizes that neither of us would have gotten legit".
How can you not see anything wrong with that? And yea, that's a stupid tournament structure, but just because the structure is stupid doesn't give them the right to cheat it. It's pretty easy not to see anything wrong with it when they never actually attempted to cheat anyone, ever. How do you find the time to write miles long awful posts when reading the thread for a second would make it perfectly clear how stupid it is?
Just because they got caught before committing the act, that means that they are still legit players? B.S. I surely wont ever cheer for neither of them and I think they should be banned from any and all tournaments just like what happened in Korea. It's not like they didn't do it because they decided it's wrong, they were going to do it but were too stupid to realize that people could read what they were typing.
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EPT
