EPTthis is why you lose when you push. Next
The Problem with Marines - Page 3
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nath
United States1788 Posts
this is why you lose when you push. Next | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Although I've never had that much problem with it. Pool before hatch gets out lings just in time, and you can get the right amount of lings out if you scout properly.. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:47 nath wrote: "leap frogging tanks is retarded." this is why you lose when you push. Next I said mobile armies and how strong they are make leapfrogging tanks look retarded. Taking a quote out of context and not reading the entire sentence makes you like an idiot for posting that. Next. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
Zerglings have higher DPS and health per cost than marines (14 DPS, 70 health compared to something like 7 DPS/45 health for 50 minerals). Yes, marines have range and yes, marines are effective vs zerglings in a ball, but if you attack with zerglings from the front, banelings from the back there is no way the marines can kite the banelings without getting eaten alive by the zerglings (more spread = more surface area for zerglings, moving to spread = getting 1-2 extra hits without that marine shooting back) if both armies have around the same number of resources used. | ||
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tainted muffin
United States158 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:11 imBLIND wrote: Almost every TvT -- mass marine. Really? every tvt i see marines get owned by tank/hellion | ||
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OmniEulogy
Canada6600 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:52 imBLIND wrote: I said mobile armies and how strong they are make leapfrogging tanks look retarded. Taking a quote out of context and not reading the entire sentence makes you like an idiot for posting that. Next. Ummm Nope. Sorry. This was your sentence. "there is no such thing as positional play in SC2. Too many things like cost and strong, mobile units makes leapfrogging tanks look retarded." End of paragraph. I agree with Nath, this is why you lose when you push... | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:42 FabledIntegral wrote: How would you suggest that we make spines even STRONGER than they are when they already hard counter marines? They two-shot marines, while reducing marine attack from 6 to 4, aka 33%. At the same time they outrange marines so marines can't even poke in. What do you possibly suggest? Things are different once stim comes out (and does combat shields make a dif?) but that's not the issue I believe concerning the all-ins. Unles you're talking about midgame, which if so I apologize I misinterpreted, since mass marine midgame is also incredibly predominant. PS. To OP's response above, I think templar taking out marines how they do is utterly retarded. People complain about how gas heavy templar is, which is irrelevant when they are pretty much only pumping out templar/zealots. When you have 6 gas, making a decent number of templar is no problem when the rest of your army is chargelots! I feel like carpet storming just ruins the game in some parts, and I thought that when I was Z as well. No skill required there really. Think storm majorly needs to be altered. EDIT: No idea how it'd be altered though to keep a balanced perspective and keep it strong  .I don't have a specific idea, and I can't really argue with the math behind spines>marines, I'm just saying from experience, spines aren't really useful against 2rax builds. Their attack speed is just too slow to really do anything in those marine/scv attacks unless you commit to at least 3. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2014 Posts
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:53 Morfildur wrote: Am i the only one who thinks most of the problems with marines could be solved by using better positioning with your zerg units? Zerglings have higher DPS and health per cost than marines (14 DPS, 70 health compared to something like 7 DPS/45 health for 50 minerals). Yes, marines have range and yes, marines are effective vs zerglings in a ball, but if you attack with zerglings from the front, banelings from the back there is no way the marines can kite the banelings without getting eaten alive by the zerglings (more spread = more surface area for zerglings, moving to spread = getting 1-2 extra hits without that marine shooting back) if both armies have around the same number of resources used. Early game, no. Late game, definitely. This just shows that marines are too strong early game and not durable enough in the late game. You need larvae for drones in the early game, which is where most zergs die to marines. Late game is not that much of a problem for zerg with mass ling/muta/bane | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:52 imBLIND wrote: I said mobile armies and how strong they are make leapfrogging tanks look retarded. Taking a quote out of context and not reading the entire sentence makes you like an idiot for posting that. Next. wasn't entirely out of context, seeing as you clearly stated you thought leapfrogging tanks was strategically poor; not just that it 'looks retarded' whatever you even mean by that. i mean i'm sorry but mobile armies aren't king in sc2 the way you make them out to be. watch clide play.  | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:57 imBLIND wrote: Early game, no. Late game, definitely. This just shows that marines are too strong early game and not durable enough in the late game. You need larvae for drones in the early game, which is where most zergs die to marines. Late game is not that much of a problem for zerg with mass ling/muta/bane dude Cool shows us how to handle marine scv allins, all good Z's are able to (but end up losing maybe half the time or slightly more due to losing the micro battle) with 15 hatch you do have enough larva to hold it off, but just barely, so you're on a tightrope. | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:55 OmniEulogy wrote: Ummm Nope. Sorry. This was your sentence. "there is no such thing as positional play in SC2. Too many things like cost and strong, mobile units makes leapfrogging tanks look retarded." End of paragraph. I agree with Nath, this is why you lose when you push... Do you ever see positional play make it past the mid game? Do you see leapfrogging tanks more or a MMM bioball more? Why is that? Cause the mobile army is just as strong, if not stronger, than leapfrogging tanks across the map. I'm not saying "leapfrogging tanks is retarded, lets just A-move my freaking tanks." I'm saying there are better alternatives than leapfrogging. On December 07 2010 17:54 tainted muffin wrote: Really? every tvt i see marines get owned by tank/hellion I forgot to mention that TvT involves other units besides marines. Hellions are only good against marines. Marines are damn good vs everything else though... On December 07 2010 18:02 nath wrote: dude Cool shows us how to handle marine scv allins, all good Z's are able to (but end up losing maybe half the time or slightly more due to losing the micro battle) with 15 hatch you do have enough larva to hold it off, but just barely, so you're on a tightrope. Okay. So if the terran doesnt win right then and there, Terran has a difficult time getting an upper hand because marines play too many roles in the mid-game; they need to be anti-air, anti-mass, and DPS for armies. The terran doesn't want to deal with that problem in teh first place, which is why there's a trend of terrans going all-in. | ||
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Acayex
United States26 Posts
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FrostedMiniWeet
United States636 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:17 SuperBigFoot wrote: Banelings work really well against mass marines. You should try them. Unless the Terran has some decent micro. Off creep, its very easy to micro stimmed marines against banelings. | ||
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FetTerBender
Germany1393 Posts
You simply need them, for nothing is quite as efficient price/damge, mobility, low - tech and general versatility - wise. Playing a Terran without Marines seems quite impossible to me at present, altough i think it might be interesting to give it a shot and open a challenge. Marines are dominating the Terran play right now, so why not try to skip them? Is someone interested in a 10-game-challenge Terran without marines`and would care to share the results? I will try it out later for sure and let you know how well i performed (1950 diamond random player before the challenge) :-) | ||
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qxc
United States550 Posts
omg zealots are op. How would protoss play pvt without zealots? The short answer is it would look drastically different. Just because a unit is crucial to the core of your army doesn't mean it's overpowered. Could you imagine zerg without speedlings? Or with much much worst speedlings that weren't actually useful or worth building almost all of the time (reapers or battlecruisers lololol?) I wish more units were like the marine (strong/versatile/high skill potential) | ||
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MoonfireSpam
United Kingdom1153 Posts
Edit: pretty sure Idra defended 2 rax pressure on steppes, the smallest map apart from shrinkage, on a 14 hatch by getting up a fast spinecrawler and delaying 3rd overlord. | ||
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WarChimp
Australia943 Posts
On December 07 2010 17:20 FabledIntegral wrote: I feel like you could solve the marine/scv all-in by making marines start with 40 hp instead of 45, and have hatchery creep spread at a faster rate than it does currently. That one extra hit by a drone/zergling can make a huge difference. Compensate that combat shields gives +15 and has maybe a slightly shorter tech duration. The reason why SCV's have slightly greater health is because they cannot heal unlike Protoss' shields and Zerg's... biological heal. Besides bring their health down to 40, will just be annoying. Think about all the Drone and Probe harass you guys can do on our SCV's as their building their buildings and with 5 less hit points thats 1 less attack. That's just annoying... | ||
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BetterFasterStronger
United States604 Posts
JulyZerg's build seems to deal with it very well (He doesn't hatch till after Zergling speed is started) That may just be something that Zergs are going to have to adapt into, I don't know. With that said. Marines are not overpowered. Even Artosis said that, and Artosis will jump on anything that remotely seems imbalanced for Zerg (That was not a artosis diss) and that kind of kills this thread. | ||
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ddrddrddrddr
1344 Posts
On December 07 2010 18:12 qxc wrote: This is a silly thread. Post replays. Sounds like you're just mad that marines are a good unit. omg zealots are op. How would protoss play pvt without zealots? The short answer is it would look drastically different. Just because a unit is crucial to the core of your army doesn't mean it's overpowered. Could you imagine zerg without speedlings? Or with much much worst speedlings that weren't actually useful or worth building almost all of the time (reapers or battlecruisers lololol?) I wish more units were like the marine (strong/versatile/high skill potential) Give zerglings an aerial mode (attack type still melee) like vikings. Imagine midair surrounds! | ||
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