On December 07 2010 18:12 qxc wrote: This is a silly thread. Post replays. Sounds like you're just mad that marines are a good unit.
omg zealots are op. How would protoss play pvt without zealots? The short answer is it would look drastically different. Just because a unit is crucial to the core of your army doesn't mean it's overpowered.
Could you imagine zerg without speedlings? Or with much much worst speedlings that weren't actually useful or worth building almost all of the time (reapers or battlecruisers lololol?)
I wish more units were like the marine (strong/versatile/high skill potential)
I'm not mad marines are a good unit.
I'm saying the marine plays too many critical roles in the Terran army, and that if the marine is eliminated by HT, Collosi, or anything anti-marine, the terran army simply crumbles in the late game.
Terrans know that, so that is why they try to end it before late game tech comes out. The marine isn't overpowered, it's just too important.
Protoss and zerg can do without individual units. If you do not build zealots, you compensate by microing sentries to keep armies away from the collosi. If you don't build speedlings to surround, you build roaches to tank. If you don't build marines, you need to build hellions, marauders, vikings, and/or thors to provide the anti-air, anti-mass, and DPS that the marine provides
On December 07 2010 17:20 FabledIntegral wrote: I feel like you could solve the marine/scv all-in by making marines start with 40 hp instead of 45, and have hatchery creep spread at a faster rate than it does currently. That one extra hit by a drone/zergling can make a huge difference. Compensate that combat shields gives +15 and has maybe a slightly shorter tech duration.
The reason why SCV's have slightly greater health is because they cannot heal unlike Protoss' shields and Zerg's... biological heal. Besides bring their health down to 40, will just be annoying. Think about all the Drone and Probe harass you guys can do on our SCV's as their building their buildings and with 5 less hit points thats 1 less attack. That's just annoying...
You seem to be forgetting that Terran can repair their SCV's with another SCV.
On December 07 2010 18:12 qxc wrote: This is a silly thread. Post replays. Sounds like you're just mad that marines are a good unit.
omg zealots are op. How would protoss play pvt without zealots? The short answer is it would look drastically different. Just because a unit is crucial to the core of your army doesn't mean it's overpowered.
Could you imagine zerg without speedlings? Or with much much worst speedlings that weren't actually useful or worth building almost all of the time (reapers or battlecruisers lololol?)
I wish more units were like the marine (strong/versatile/high skill potential)
I'm not mad marines are a good unit.
I'm saying the marine plays too many critical roles in the Terran army, and that if the marine is eliminated by HT, Collosi, or anything anti-marine, the terran army simply crumbles in the late game.
Terrans know that, so that is why they try to end it before late game tech comes out. The marine isn't overpowered, it's just too important.
Protoss and zerg can do without individual units. If you do not build zealots, you compensate by microing sentries to keep armies away from the collosi. If you don't build speedlings to surround, you build roaches to tank. If you don't build marines, you need to build hellions, marauders, vikings, and/or thors to provide the anti-air, anti-mass, and DPS that the marine provides
Ooo and with that I'll be suprised if this thread stays up much longer you just went from saying "The Marine is OP" to "Every Terran Army Fails Without Marines"
On December 07 2010 18:12 qxc wrote: This is a silly thread. Post replays. Sounds like you're just mad that marines are a good unit.
omg zealots are op. How would protoss play pvt without zealots? The short answer is it would look drastically different. Just because a unit is crucial to the core of your army doesn't mean it's overpowered.
Could you imagine zerg without speedlings? Or with much much worst speedlings that weren't actually useful or worth building almost all of the time (reapers or battlecruisers lololol?)
I wish more units were like the marine (strong/versatile/high skill potential)
Give zerglings an aerial mode (attack type still melee) like vikings. Imagine midair surrounds!
Are you high? I mean, I'm totally with you, that would be so cool to see, but...
On December 07 2010 17:28 Consolidate wrote: Increase unit size.
I reckon you could be on to something there. You can pack so many marines into a ball in the early game that you very rarely see them out of position, where-as zealot/zergling still has to deal with trying to spread out to do damage.
Either this or shorter marine range with range as a T2 upgrade would make for a much more balanced unit. Less effective at kiting in the early game, and a bit more deadly in the late game.
The marine is playing too many roles? have you heard of toss. Get rid of sentry there is no good tier 1 or 2. The whole set up of the race is to be able to ff the enemies army so you dont get overpowered (lol toss getting overpowered). You have to delay the enemy till you get to tier 3. The marine is just a good dps to have for 50 mins. In toss you have to have gateway units with your army. I dont get what you are complaining about.
On December 07 2010 18:12 qxc wrote: This is a silly thread. Post replays. Sounds like you're just mad that marines are a good unit.
omg zealots are op. How would protoss play pvt without zealots? The short answer is it would look drastically different. Just because a unit is crucial to the core of your army doesn't mean it's overpowered.
Could you imagine zerg without speedlings? Or with much much worst speedlings that weren't actually useful or worth building almost all of the time (reapers or battlecruisers lololol?)
I wish more units were like the marine (strong/versatile/high skill potential)
I'm not mad marines are a good unit.
I'm saying the marine plays too many critical roles in the Terran army, and that if the marine is eliminated by HT, Collosi, or anything anti-marine, the terran army simply crumbles in the late game.
Terrans know that, so that is why they try to end it before late game tech comes out. The marine isn't overpowered, it's just too important.
Protoss and zerg can do without individual units. If you do not build zealots, you compensate by microing sentries to keep armies away from the collosi. If you don't build speedlings to surround, you build roaches to tank. If you don't build marines, you need to build hellions, marauders, vikings, and/or thors to provide the anti-air, anti-mass, and DPS that the marine provides
Ooo and with that I'll be suprised if this thread stays up much longer you just went from saying "The Marine is OP" to "Every Terran Army Fails Without Marines"
Instead of contributing or arguing against the OP claims you take the role of a backseat mod...
On December 07 2010 18:12 qxc wrote: This is a silly thread. Post replays. Sounds like you're just mad that marines are a good unit.
omg zealots are op. How would protoss play pvt without zealots? The short answer is it would look drastically different. Just because a unit is crucial to the core of your army doesn't mean it's overpowered.
Could you imagine zerg without speedlings? Or with much much worst speedlings that weren't actually useful or worth building almost all of the time (reapers or battlecruisers lololol?)
I wish more units were like the marine (strong/versatile/high skill potential)
I'm not mad marines are a good unit.
I'm saying the marine plays too many critical roles in the Terran army, and that if the marine is eliminated by HT, Collosi, or anything anti-marine, the terran army simply crumbles in the late game.
Terrans know that, so that is why they try to end it before late game tech comes out. The marine isn't overpowered, it's just too important.
Protoss and zerg can do without individual units. If you do not build zealots, you compensate by microing sentries to keep armies away from the collosi. If you don't build speedlings to surround, you build roaches to tank. If you don't build marines, you need to build hellions, marauders, vikings, and/or thors to provide the anti-air, anti-mass, and DPS that the marine provides
actually that was what you said in the OP, you're just changing it now...
On December 07 2010 17:28 Consolidate wrote: Increase unit size.
hahaha! i don't know if this was serious, but either way i found it funny.
"Fixing the marine will fix most, if not all of the early/late game issues with the TvX matchups."
I don;t know if this statement is actually true, considering that none of us players actually KNOW what exactly what is messing around with the tvx mu's (i don't even think that we can say 'most'). but... i agree that they may be a little too efficient early game. although, like we've covered before, blizzard stated that terran has a strong early game to counter act the other races' stronger late games (which is what i really hate/is one of the causes for terrans to play the way they do). Contrary to belief, some terrans (i speculate, a lot of broodwar veterans) actually want to go to the late game in every game because that's how we've been playing for the longest time, and we feel the same way as the op does.
On December 07 2010 17:20 FabledIntegral wrote: I feel like you could solve the marine/scv all-in by making marines start with 40 hp instead of 45, and have hatchery creep spread at a faster rate than it does currently. That one extra hit by a drone/zergling can make a huge difference. Compensate that combat shields gives +15 and has maybe a slightly shorter tech duration.
The reason why SCV's have slightly greater health is because they cannot heal unlike Protoss' shields and Zerg's... biological heal. Besides bring their health down to 40, will just be annoying. Think about all the Drone and Probe harass you guys can do on our SCV's as their building their buildings and with 5 less hit points thats 1 less attack. That's just annoying...
You seem to be forgetting that Terran can repair their SCV's with another SCV.
the health of an scv matters the most during early game, before the first rine comes out (or even more if the toss decides to proxy gate/zeal a terran player. pulling a worker off mining, while having one building a rax, + 1 building gas + 1 scouting, whereas toss just needs one to scout/harass. After this, scv health comes in in relation to pushes with scvs (which is why blizz nerfed the health of them).
On December 07 2010 18:12 qxc wrote: This is a silly thread. Post replays. Sounds like you're just mad that marines are a good unit.
omg zealots are op. How would protoss play pvt without zealots? The short answer is it would look drastically different. Just because a unit is crucial to the core of your army doesn't mean it's overpowered.
Could you imagine zerg without speedlings? Or with much much worst speedlings that weren't actually useful or worth building almost all of the time (reapers or battlecruisers lololol?)
I wish more units were like the marine (strong/versatile/high skill potential)
I'm not mad marines are a good unit.
I'm saying the marine plays too many critical roles in the Terran army, and that if the marine is eliminated by HT, Collosi, or anything anti-marine, the terran army simply crumbles in the late game.
Terrans know that, so that is why they try to end it before late game tech comes out. The marine isn't overpowered, it's just too important.
Protoss and zerg can do without individual units. If you do not build zealots, you compensate by microing sentries to keep armies away from the collosi. If you don't build speedlings to surround, you build roaches to tank. If you don't build marines, you need to build hellions, marauders, vikings, and/or thors to provide the anti-air, anti-mass, and DPS that the marine provides
Ooo and with that I'll be suprised if this thread stays up much longer you just went from saying "The Marine is OP" to "Every Terran Army Fails Without Marines"
Just because I want to change something about the marine does not mean I think it's OP.
I never used the word or phrase "overpowered" in my post. Yes, I'm sorry, it does sound that way. I'm saying the marine plays too many important roles in the Terran army that it's too difficult to use any other army that doesnt involve marines.
This is why late game terran usually fails vs late game toss and late game zerg. My argument makes it sound like marines are OP, but there's a difference between OP and important.
OP means that a unit can't be beaten. Important means that if you don't have the unit, you're gonna be behind. The marine isn't OP; there are a bunch of counters to it. The marine is important, and since there are a lot of counters to mass marines in the late game, you're gonna be behind in the late game. Hence, most Terrans try to end it before the counters come out, resultign in mass marine/scv rushes.
On December 07 2010 18:12 qxc wrote: This is a silly thread. Post replays. Sounds like you're just mad that marines are a good unit.
omg zealots are op. How would protoss play pvt without zealots? The short answer is it would look drastically different. Just because a unit is crucial to the core of your army doesn't mean it's overpowered.
Could you imagine zerg without speedlings? Or with much much worst speedlings that weren't actually useful or worth building almost all of the time (reapers or battlecruisers lololol?)
I wish more units were like the marine (strong/versatile/high skill potential)
I'm not mad marines are a good unit.
I'm saying the marine plays too many critical roles in the Terran army, and that if the marine is eliminated by HT, Collosi, or anything anti-marine, the terran army simply crumbles in the late game.
Terrans know that, so that is why they try to end it before late game tech comes out. The marine isn't overpowered, it's just too important.
Protoss and zerg can do without individual units. If you do not build zealots, you compensate by microing sentries to keep armies away from the collosi. If you don't build speedlings to surround, you build roaches to tank. If you don't build marines, you need to build hellions, marauders, vikings, and/or thors to provide the anti-air, anti-mass, and DPS that the marine provides
Thats a very interesting point. I haven't thought of how much of a backbone marines are to a terran army. ZvT, any sort of early pressure has to be done with rines. Reapers cant be massed fast enough, mrauders get raped by lings, with the supply->rax requirement, any fast tech to units will be slow.
Mid game, rines are essential to any muta play, thors or turrets alone dont quite cut it. Rines are needed for drop/counter play. and rines are crucial anti air units.
I would be interested to hear a more experienced player to draw some broodwar comparisons. T was my worse race in broodwar and i am nowhere near knowlegedable enough to speak of terran builds in bw.
On December 07 2010 18:34 us.insurgency wrote: The marine is playing too many roles? have you heard of toss. Get rid of sentry there is no good tier 1 or 2. The whole set up of the race is to be able to ff the enemies army so you dont get overpowered (lol toss getting overpowered). You have to delay the enemy till you get to tier 3. The marine is just a good dps to have for 50 mins. In toss you have to have gateway units with your army. I dont get what you are complaining about.
Can a toss army live without sentries in the late game? Can a terran live without marines in the late game? Sure both units play critical roles, but the marine plays too many important roles. Killing sentries first means no guardian shield or FF's. Big whoop in the late game. Killing marines first? Everything else falls apart.
On December 07 2010 18:12 qxc wrote: This is a silly thread. Post replays. Sounds like you're just mad that marines are a good unit.
omg zealots are op. How would protoss play pvt without zealots? The short answer is it would look drastically different. Just because a unit is crucial to the core of your army doesn't mean it's overpowered.
Could you imagine zerg without speedlings? Or with much much worst speedlings that weren't actually useful or worth building almost all of the time (reapers or battlecruisers lololol?)
I wish more units were like the marine (strong/versatile/high skill potential)
I'm not mad marines are a good unit.
I'm saying the marine plays too many critical roles in the Terran army, and that if the marine is eliminated by HT, Collosi, or anything anti-marine, the terran army simply crumbles in the late game.
Terrans know that, so that is why they try to end it before late game tech comes out. The marine isn't overpowered, it's just too important.
Protoss and zerg can do without individual units. If you do not build zealots, you compensate by microing sentries to keep armies away from the collosi. If you don't build speedlings to surround, you build roaches to tank. If you don't build marines, you need to build hellions, marauders, vikings, and/or thors to provide the anti-air, anti-mass, and DPS that the marine provides
actually that was what you said in the OP, you're just changing it now...
The only thing I did to the OP was adding some of my replies to prevent the topic from derailing further and changing "6 other matchups" to "5 other matchups."
On December 07 2010 17:27 tangwhat wrote: Why have none of you realised that the thread poster is a TERRAN PLAYER himself, do none of you bother looking at icons or something? So stop saying it's a whine thread and that he should make banelings.
Icons mean nothing newbie . I have a zerg icon as you can see because i played z in sc1 but sc2 i play T
I'd just like to note in my argument that the marine plays a very inconsequential role in my TvZ matchup, you don't HAVE to go marine tank. Before we watched Foxer play it wasn't as if people were already doing marine tank. They were doing other strats. Marauders ARE usable, ya know! Midgame I'm typically playing 4 rax (3 tech lab marauder, 1 reactor marines), 2 fact (one tech lab thors, one reactored blue flame hellions. if mass roach, siege tanks instead of thors, but usually they muta), and reactor starport for medivacs.
Typically slow expand to the third while constantly using blue flame hellions to go to mineral lines while trying to drop at the same time. Finally move out after securing my third with a pfort by attacking typically right as their ultra/greater spire tech finishes, although I still don't have a consistent feel when Zergs are actually teching, seems so random. Either way, eventually move out with mass marauder, sizable number of rines, blue flame hellions, few thors, siege tanks (or all thor if they went mass muta), medivacs, and vikings. Just the feel of all the different units synergizing makes the game much more fun than the stupid marine/tank imo. Was playing at around 2450 pts a week and a half ago, although I've been dropping games like no other randomly to roach rushes and vs Protoss so my score is actually below that now.
Either way, the point of this post was to
1. Just say you don't HAVE to go marine/tank, although maybe my strat isn't as viable on the TOP, I'd like to see it tried more 2. Delay my studying for finals as it's 2 AM and I haven't done shit. Oh well, GSL GOING TO START
PS. Imo, give Probes and Drones range 1 again like BW, keep SCVs as melee, but make them 50 health, or even back to 60 depending on how significant of a change this results in. Pretty sure if they had range on their attack they could superiorly fight off the enemy SCV rushes so that Terrans would stop doing it in the first place. Then the 60 hp is to make them last longer when Protoss/Zerg is harassing T workers!
EPT
. I have a zerg icon as you can see because i played z in sc1 but sc2 i play T
