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On December 07 2010 17:53 Morfildur wrote:
Am i the only one who thinks most of the problems with marines could be solved by using better positioning with your zerg units?
Zerglings have higher DPS and health per cost than marines (14 DPS, 70 health compared to something like 7 DPS/45 health for 50 minerals). Yes, marines have range and yes, marines are effective vs zerglings in a ball, but if you attack with zerglings from the front, banelings from the back there is no way the marines can kite the banelings without getting eaten alive by the zerglings (more spread = more surface area for zerglings, moving to spread = getting 1-2 extra hits without that marine shooting back) if both armies have around the same number of resources used.
Yeah, i think hes talking about the early game. Flanking is great it crushes marines but the problem is that you do not have bling speed out by the time a good timing push comes and u just dont have enough stuff half the time. It's very difficult to deal with as zerg and to easy to execute as terran.
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Jw btw, I have no idea how it plays out, what happens if you try to go mass roach instead of rushing to muta vs Terran? Mass roach and less baneling. Do siege tanks dominate you or ...?
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Nerf marine, buff siege tank and make maps larger = would fix this i think. The reason siege tanks were too strong and needed to be nerfed was because of the small maps. With larger maps the siege tanks would become less useful, so you could buff them again to their scary levels 
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Marines are fine as they are. Yes, they are strong early game, but toss and zerg have methods to deal with marine all-ins before they get their definitive speed-banelings/storms/colossi. Marines don't need a buff late game. They're a good mineral sink and serve the role in a late-game terran army just as the zealot or the zergling does for protoss and zerg respectively: A good support unit for nearly any army composition, bad on its own.
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On December 07 2010 19:13 LilClinkin wrote:
Marines are fine as they are. Yes, they are strong early game, but toss and zerg have methods to deal with marine all-ins before they get their definitive speed-banelings/storms/colossi. Marines don't need a buff late game. They're a good mineral sink and serve the role in a late-game terran army just as the zealot or the zergling does for protoss and zerg respectively: A good support unit for nearly any army composition, bad on its own.
I'd say arguably Marines are the best out of the 3 early game, but the worst out the 3 late game. Still a mineral dump, yes. I'm trying to shift it over to hellions, but the transition is really hard so I'm not sure how it's working. Hellions, like marines, are amazing at tanking dmg vs ultras, but are also mobile to harass and assuming you have a small raiding squadron they can hold off lings too. Consistently am surprised however at how good speed banelings on creep are vs them.
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Your thread title is kinda misleading , when i entered i really thought it was gonna be another "Marines OP" QQ thread. Marines aren't the problem , they are fine as they are, a glass cannon/mineral dump.
And agree with everything written in op, pretty much spot on.
On December 07 2010 19:13 LilClinkin wrote:
Marines are fine as they are. Yes, they are strong early game, but toss and zerg have methods to deal with marine all-ins before they get their definitive speed-banelings/storms/colossi. Marines don't need a buff late game. They're a good mineral sink and serve the role in a late-game terran army just as the zealot or the zergling does for protoss and zerg respectively: A good support unit for nearly any army composition, bad on its own.
Bolded part, that's the problem. As you said the T1 unit of respective races should be good SUPPORT units late game. Marines don't play that role at all. Marines are the core unit of the Terran army with everything else (Tanks and Tankers) supporting marines, not the other way around.
And the current trend, core unit = marine , supporting unit = scv.
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I like how people argue that Terran is still weak lategame. You never lose early game, so once opponents actually have a chance of winning you're considered weak, apparently. Lategame bio is still plenty strong and punishes any mistakes. Terran is still just as resilient to major mistakes as they are early game. Marines are the best scaling mineral dump of all the races, so to say they're weak lategame is ridiculous. Spam Zealots and Zerglings in lategame and see where that gets you.
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Marines in tvp? Good luck against collossae.
Marines in tvt? Good luck against tanks and blue flame hellions.
Marines in tvz? Yes, like in BW.
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Uh, I'd argue that a serious 12gate lategame chargelot spam is much better than marines at the same timing.
And zerglings change into banelings, which is a core unit at least among the koreans.
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On December 07 2010 17:11 imBLIND wrote:
All the Terran match-ups are botched because of this one unit. Every damn TvZ -- mass marine. Almost every TvT -- mass marine. TvP -- kinda have to mass marines. It's too damn good in the early game and it's not nearly good enough in the late game.
[...]
The problem: The marine can be massed extremely easily, it's extremely efficient for it's cost, and it has a huge amount of firepower and durability with medivacs.
The real problem: The marine plays too many roles in a terran army for a late game army to succeed. If the marines are gone, the Terran is dead. Because the marine can be countered, the game is not broken, so I don't see a too great issue with the marine.
The damage output is very good considering his cost and supply needs. He is a ranged unit so he gains efficiency if you build alot of him. He fits so many roles, instead of teching to a specialized unit it's may be better to spam some more of this cannon fodder.
While the marine feels somewhat OP, I would say that he is not really OP or entirely dominating. Terrans rely on having marines. If you know how to counter marines, you can do a lot of damage. Since terrans also have the options for hellion harass, cloaked banshees and other nasty stuff, I like the fact (playing zerg) that I still will have to deal with a number of mariners. In this weird way, the ever-so-needed marine somewhat balances the game because terrans still have many options and it's hard to always correctly guess which what he will come out next.
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The problem with nerfing Terran bio play because of the current TvZ trend is the inevitable impact on TvP, since bionic units are really the only good option in that matchup. Sure, I don't like 2 rax --> pull all scv's except two --> micro war around the hatchery for 2 minutes, but that's unfortunately the way that Terran is forced to play at this juncture in time. Whether its 2 barracks allins or thor rushes or cloaked banshee cheeses, high level Terrans have realized that it's imperative to apply pressure and do damage in the early game. Otherwise, the macro capabilities of Zerg and the unbelievable late-game strength of Protoss will simply crush even the best of Terran players. Although great macro Terrans like Jinro and NaDa exist, they are very rare because of the game's mechanics.
I think the real balancing has to occur in the mid-late game. Instead of fixing the small problem by slapping a bandage on it - nerfing 2rax play - you will be addressing the real cause of the trend - the fact that the Terran race cannot realistically play a long macro game against an equivalently skilled Protoss or Zerg player. I am no expert in balance, but I know enough to say that there won't be one "magic fix" that will suddenly remedy the race disparity. Blizzard will have to work with the community and more importantly the top level players to fix this.
Only at this point will SC2 reach the balanced and still innovative state of Brood War, a state desirable for any RTS game.
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I agree with OP on most points. The balance of the Marine is holding back Terran play in general and it needs a nerf.
But I wouldn't say the Marine is UP in the late-game. They're just right for a unit that costs 50 minerals. Look at Zerglings and Zealots, they die in seconds when you get to late-game battles, why do people think that Marines should be special?
There needs to be some sort of nerf to early game damage, maybe 0.1 increase on their attack CD or making them attack twice as fast for 3 dmg instead of 6 (making them weaker against armored units).
Either way the marine is FINE in late game, it's the early game power that they have and why every Terran pushes like crazy for the first 15 minutes, beyond that, they are losing their free win.
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On December 07 2010 21:28 Jermstuddog wrote:
I agree with OP on most points. The balance of the Marine is holding back Terran play in general and it needs a nerf.
But I wouldn't say the Marine is UP in the late-game. They're just right for a unit that costs 50 minerals. Look at Zerglings and Zealots, they die in seconds when you get to late-game battles, why do people think that Marines should be special?
There needs to be some sort of nerf to early game damage, maybe 0.1 increase on their attack CD or making them attack twice as fast for 3 dmg instead of 6 (making them weaker against armored units).
Either way the marine is FINE in late game, it's the early game power that they have and why every Terran pushes like crazy for the first 15 minutes, beyond that, they are losing their free win.
The marine is the main dps of the army.
The marine is the main anti air of the army.
The marine dies almost instantly, late game.
Doesn't that seem like a problem?
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On December 07 2010 21:38 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 21:28 Jermstuddog wrote:
I agree with OP on most points. The balance of the Marine is holding back Terran play in general and it needs a nerf.
But I wouldn't say the Marine is UP in the late-game. They're just right for a unit that costs 50 minerals. Look at Zerglings and Zealots, they die in seconds when you get to late-game battles, why do people think that Marines should be special?
There needs to be some sort of nerf to early game damage, maybe 0.1 increase on their attack CD or making them attack twice as fast for 3 dmg instead of 6 (making them weaker against armored units).
Either way the marine is FINE in late game, it's the early game power that they have and why every Terran pushes like crazy for the first 15 minutes, beyond that, they are losing their free win. The marine is the main dps of the army. The marine is the main anti air of the army. The marine dies almost instantly, late game. Doesn't that seem like a problem?
I see a problem with them being the main everything. Then their dying so easily wouldn't matter as much.
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Needing Marines for anti-air is a weak argument when the same army has Thors, Vikings, and Missle Turrets all easily available in a late-game situation. Marines give you that final oomph, but even without marines, Terran AA is fine.
As far as main DPS, I think Marines BEING the main DPS is one of the biggest problems in the first place. Marines should be GOOD DPS, but not as good as they are now. Comparing to Broodwar, Marines got like a 30% DPS boost. For what? Nothing, they cost the same, build in the same time, and even have more HP to boot, Marines need to have their DPS reduced if anything. And back to the dying instantly thing, do you realize that compared to BW, Marines have 12% or 37% more HP? Thats a lot of beef added to a 50 mineral unit.
I'm not saying to nerf Marines into the ground, so don't take it that way, but they do need a SLIGHT reduction in their early-game DPS. Late-game they are fine.
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On December 07 2010 21:38 MythicalMage wrote:
The marine is the main dps of the army.
The marine is the main anti air of the army.
The marine dies almost instantly, late game.
Doesn't that seem like a problem?
Yeah, marine shouldn't be that good.
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Try slowly adding factory units into your usual army composition later in the game. They work very well to complement the Marine (Tanks can hold positions very well with Marine support, Thors can soak Banelings and help with Mutalisks, and Hellions simply dissolve Zerglings and Zealots).
To fix the Marine in the early game, perhaps their hitpoints should be reduced to 40 initially and be raised to 55 with Combat Shield.
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On December 07 2010 17:11 imBLIND wrote:
Can a toss army live without sentries in the late game? Can a terran live without marines in the late game? Sure both units play critical roles, but the marine plays too many important roles. Killing sentries first means no guardian shield or FF's. Big whoop in the late game. Killing marines first? Everything else falls apart.
Have you ever EMP'd sentries before engaging a protoss death ball late game? Sometimes the lack of GS or FF can mean the difference between trapping the terran ball and have your zealots and colossi shred it, or getting rolled by stim + medivacs.
While I think you have some good points, I think its not a good idea to generalize things like this. SC2 is not like SC. Each race has some core units that they need to be producing en mass the entire game in order to stay viable. Can you imagine a zerg late game army of ultralisk roach? This would be a terrible composition, but throw in some banelings or lots of speedlings and suddenly the ultras become a lot scarier.
The same is true with terran balls. A group of only tanks and marauders wont fare too well against zealots and HTs,but throw in a group of marines and suddenly the protoss ball evaporates.
Bottom line. Zerg have speedlings, Terran has marines, Toss has zealots/sentries. You need some meat with your support units in order to have an effective army
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On December 07 2010 17:23 Fa1nT wrote:
I wouldn't mind if they made marines weaker, but made stim much better to compensate for it. This would weaken some rushes, but make marines better late game.
Something like.. +100% move speed and +50% attack speed (instead of 50% and 33%) instead, so that marines are actually able to move around the same speed as muta. "Forcing" stims should have a penalty, but as is, muta can force stims and get away without taking a single shot.
Having marines start with 40 hp and getting +20 from combat shield, but making the upgrade take +10-20 seconds would be interesting as well.
But we don't work at blizzard, and it's their choice what to do (if anything).
You will truly hate rauders again if this ever happened.
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I agree that marines are a little over top either OR that Terran has to get them because there is no viable alternative in terms of versatility.
In my opinion the Hellion should bring this versatility in the same way as the Vulture brought it to Terran Mech play in BW. Currently the Hellion is extremly limited in its application, but is too good (with Igniter!) in what he does: killing light units.
In my opinion there should be a small bump to bio in general, like increasing Stim research cost and a removal of Igniter from Hellions, but a new ability in the vein of Spider Mines. Something like oil slick, which reduces movement speed of units moving over it and ignitable from splash damage with a dot effect on the affected area.
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EPT
