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Marines are the one unit that is keeping alot of the TvX matchups balanced, so by nerfing them you're essentialy making every T matchup broken or extremely streamlined and boring.
They're fragile yet powerful when controlled properly, its a well designed unit.
I really don't understand where all this outcry is coming from, the game is pretty damn balanced right now looking at top level play.
I think the one issue that remains in the game is how forgiving scv pushes are compared to the other races because of the mule. And I say that as a terran player.
The risk reward for terran rushes is much more forgiving because of the mule, it'd be much more interesting if there was more tention in those decisions.
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How about bringing about the below change to MULE mineral returns:
MULE minerals/sec = function of (( total number of scv's currently mining) / (total number of scvs))
MULE income drops when scv's aren't mining.
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Doesn't this same argument apply to stalkers?
They are the worst scaling unit in the game, toss' only AA outside of Stargate, and the core of every toss army. Have you ever tried going zealot sentry into templar as toss? Zerg just goes ROFL mutas and Terran ROFL bancheese. One on one Roaches/Marauder rapes stalker. This same argument can be applied to every race that they have their own core unit.
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I've mentioned it before, but I agree with a possible MULE mineral nerf. Marines are not really the problem...they changed from the meta-game, if you remember the first two months of play everyone was QQing about Rauders and Reapers, nobody even cared about marines. The only problem I see now is the efficacy of 2 rax pushes against Zerg, there needs to be at the very least an "all-in" factor to the all-in for Terran.
And seriously stop complaining about them against P...I would be hard pressed to see anyone with pure marines win (they only help to kill immortals and add some cheap cost dps for the time they can actually stay alive), stalkers eat them alive and zealots destroy, and of course Collo and the inevitable storms - you need full MMM for that which is fine.
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This has to be a troll thread, I just don't...Marines are too weak at any point in the game? At least in TvZ, really? If you can effectively spread Marines out to minimize splash damage then you will never lose a game. They are too cheap, fast, and do too much damage to lose a single battle unless you have them clumped up against AoE. I'm terrified of the day when Terran control gets good enough to have Marine spread, because Zerg will never win another match against them.
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Dude the sentry is just as or MORE fundamental to toss armies than marines.
What happen if you lose a marine in the fist 4 minutes of the game? Nothing.
What happens if you lose a sentry in the first 4 minutes of the game? You lose.
This is the difference. Sentries as WAY MORE essential to toss gameplay(when i say sentry i mean FF) than you can ever think of.
With terran you can at least change the composition to replace the marine. With toss if you have no sentrys untill you can get a 200/200 death ball of collossi and stalker, sentrys are irreplaceable.
Every race has its core "omfg i need you" units, be it the marine the sentry or.... i dont know about zerg tho, maybe thats why they are OP *wink*  .
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On December 07 2010 22:38 Senx wrote:
Marines are the one unit that is keeping alot of the TvX matchups balanced, so by nerfing them you're essentialy making every T matchup broken or extremely streamlined and boring.
Newsflash, TvX matchups are ALREADY boring, broken, and streamlined.
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On December 07 2010 23:08 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 22:38 Senx wrote:
Marines are the one unit that is keeping alot of the TvX matchups balanced, so by nerfing them you're essentialy making every T matchup broken or extremely streamlined and boring.
Newsflash, TvX matchups are ALREADY boring, broken, and streamlined.
Don't post again till you get some intelligence
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Agree with the OP and I think people are missing the point.
Marines are the reason T is "OP in early game and weak in lategame".
Stimmed, they have one of the greatest DPS in the game.
They cost only minerals, and can be massed quickly.
They are ranged, decently mobile, and highly supply efficient.
They clump very tightly so they have incredible DPS per surface area.
Lategame, the splash counter-units are out. Massed marines die so quickly that their basic strengths are nulled.
DPS is irrelevant when unit lifespans are a matter of seconds.
Cost efficiency is nullified by even more cost efficient counters.
Clumping works against them due to the much higher frequency of splash damage.
You could nerf the marine (build time and attack speed) and then buff EVERY SINGLE tier 2 and tier 3 unit (as well as reapers and reactors), and Terran would be considerably better balanced.
Map size would have to increase, and the production time on voidrays might have to increase as well (void ray + warpgate rushes are already extremely difficult to hold) . But it would ultimately be better for the game.
Keep in mind that a bigger map size skews unit composition choice in favor of bio (for a more mobile army), off-setting the marine nerf to a degree.
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On December 07 2010 22:53 PartyBiscuit wrote:
I've mentioned it before, but I agree with a possible MULE mineral nerf. Marines are not really the problem...they changed from the meta-game, if you remember the first two months of play everyone was QQing about Rauders and Reapers, nobody even cared about marines. The only problem I see now is the efficacy of 2 rax pushes against Zerg, there needs to be at the very least an "all-in" factor to the all-in for Terran.
And seriously stop complaining about them against P...I would be hard pressed to see anyone with pure marines win (they only help to kill immortals and add some cheap cost dps for the time they can actually stay alive), stalkers eat them alive and zealots destroy, and of course Collo and the inevitable storms - you need full MMM for that which is fine.
Actually, lots of people were talking about the Marine back in beta.
Comparisons of Zealots, Marines, and Zerglings were having Marines coming out way on top with Zealots pretty much the same and Zerglings being a lot weaker than they were in BW.
5 rax marine builds were popular back in beta.
Protoss was crying a bit more about Marauders, but they were having plenty of problems with Marines as well. That whole match was drastically different from BW (all mech all the time) though, so people were still adjusting.
The biggest thing to note though is, Marines are FINE in late-game application. They remain a strong, quick force, but there are ways to stop them.
Now we are getting in to strategies that involve 0 gas and spamming marines until you're blue in the face to just overrun your opponent. This doesn't sound like Terran play at all and Terran players shouldn't be supporting this play style. Terrans should want the marine nerfed (and possible adjustments to other units) more than anybody else.
But all people are seeing right now is the win this round, not the health of the game.
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This has nothing to do with the power of marines, but rather with the power of MULEs.
One MULE = 5 marines and change, every minute. Go 3 minutes into an orbital command, and you suddenly have enough minerals for 15 extra marines. Of course it's going to rape face.
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How about just watching Jinro play?
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As mentioned before, I think an increase of unit size would be necesary to solve this problem.
(if it really is a problem?)
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1. Reduce Marine HP from 45 to 40
2. Improve Combat Shield from +10 to +15
3. Reduce Stim Movement Increase from +50% to +33%
4. Stimpack and Combat Shields require Engineering Bay (still produced at tech lab)
5. Reduce Spine Crawler build time from 50s to 45s
6. Reduce Spine Crawler Root from 12s to 8s
Reducing the Marines ability to kite efficiently is the best way to lower the offensive power of the marine without impacting its defensive power too much IMHO. Yes it makes harass more difficult to deal with, but at 100 gas vs 0 gas Marines are still a little too efficient at that role when there are plenty of other good units at their disposal. Fixing Stim helps allievate Maurader vs Stalker issue in TvP, and makes Banelings more efficent ZvT so they can consolidate their role as the core Zerg Marine-counter.
Backloading Marine HP, delaying stim/shields, and improving spines are all ways to fix the early game without affecting the late game too much. (Irrelevent to marines, Spore crawlers should be able to detect while uprooted, but that's another story.)
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People overestimating marines is why Terrans keep claiming they have a weak lategame. Marines are a core unit, and are extremely good. But they are not the end-all-be-all unit of terran like people keep treating them.
Almost every terran player going MMM just continues to go MMM until they reach max. And then they get rocked by colossus/templar compositions or broodlord/hydralisk or something. It's absurd. Terran doesn't have a weak lategame, you do.
Marines are fine.
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On December 07 2010 23:35 Zrana wrote:
How about just watching Jinro play?
What is this supposed to prove? Jinro makes plenty of marines, about 50% of his army composition in all MU's I'd say.
I think Blizzard is going to need to rework Terran late-game in order to solve these Terran all-ins. As much as people like to portray all Terrans as cheesy all-in noobs, there's logic behind doing it.
1. It works.
2. Macro and lategame strategies are inferior alternatives for Terran.
I'm really curious to see TvP winrates once templars with storm and kaydarin amulet are out and TvZ winrates once Zerg has his third base up.
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On December 07 2010 23:32 bobucles wrote:
This has nothing to do with the power of marines, but rather with the power of MULEs.
One MULE = 5 marines and change, every minute. Go 3 minutes into an orbital command, and you suddenly have enough minerals for 15 extra marines. Of course it's going to rape face.
this, just reduce the incoming per mule to 20 or 25, instead of 30...
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I've found that with all Terrans seemingly jumping on the mass marine strategy lately, I've gone back to my oldschool one base Baneling busts and am having good success.
Seems a lot of Terrans get lax and don't properly scout.
I'm just mid diamond though, perhaps at the higher levels where marine micro is better I would be having a harder time.
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On December 07 2010 23:35 Zrana wrote:
How about just watching Jinro play?
Jinro makes too many marauders, and not enough marines in his play, it's going to cost him down the road.
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I agree that there is too much emphasis on the marine.
Because I am a protoss player I will just comment on PvT:
Designwise I think it's currently a pretty bad match-up. I would like to see mech enabled in TvP. There should be an alternative to marine & marauder. Currently, there almost isn't, though some experiment with tank+marine+banshee. But that seems mostly like an early-mid game composition that fails once protoss gets going.
My biggest issue with sc2 currently is actually how poor gateway units are against marines and marauders once they have concussive, stim and 1-2 medivacs. Because then you can't fight them straight up. Sure, I know that by now and seldom try but every once in a while you get the feeling that "well, I'm so much ahead, I should be able to just roflstomp him even with pure gateway" ; but no, your units just evaporate.
I doubt anyone could be happy with the design of PvT as it is now. Part of that is because of what the OP explains.
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EPT
