EPTThe Problem with Marines - Page 8
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Nub4ever
Canada1981 Posts
| ||
|
TheDrill
Russian Federation145 Posts
On December 07 2010 22:48 red_hq wrote: Doesn't this same argument apply to stalkers? They are the worst scaling unit in the game, toss' only AA outside of Stargate, and the core of every toss army. Have you ever tried going zealot sentry into templar as toss? Zerg just goes ROFL mutas and Terran ROFL bancheese. One on one Roaches/Marauder rapes stalker. This same argument can be applied to every race that they have their own core unit. Stalkers are the weakest unit in the game on their own, this is part of the reason why zerg is doing so well against protoss. Stalkers aren't really the core of any protoss army though, realistically. Zealots are far better tanks and immortals/colossi/templar are far better damage dealers. Marines are the core of the terran army and have no analog. Zerg can just make roaches nowadays. They are the SC1's dragoon. | ||
|
ppshchik
United States862 Posts
Marine SCV is less overpowered in Broodwar since they didn't have mules and any dead SCV can basically spell the end to the Terran economy whilst the Zerg just LOL at the Terran with well timed sunkens. | ||
|
lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
Solution? Make the attack animation for the marine a bit slower, and with a warm-up motion. The DPS should NOT CHANGE AT ALL, but attack animation should not be 'cancellable,' which allows for an almost 'attack while moving' ability. But imho, I don't think marines are all that bad. The marine/scv all-in is just that; hold it off, and you've probably won the game. | ||
|
Dystisis
Norway713 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:34 TheDrill wrote: Stalkers are the weakest unit in the game on their own, this is part of the reason why zerg is doing so well against protoss. Stalkers aren't really the core of any protoss army though, realistically. Zealots are far better tanks and immortals/colossi/templar are far better damage dealers. Marines are the core of the terran army and have no analog. Zerg can just make roaches nowadays. They are the SC1's dragoon. Except that in most cases, Stalkers in fact are the core of the Protoss army, only perhaps challenged by the Colossus. The reasons are a few: They can shoot up, unlike f.ex. Immortals. They have decent range, which makes them not feel as useless as f.ex. Zealots in larger confrontations. Like the Dragoon in BW, the Stalker is the most allround unit of the Protoss arsenal. Yet, as you said, it is not very good. | ||
|
ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
| ||
|
fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
Good analysis by OP. It's true that you need to invest a LOT if you want the same functionality of the Marine without the vulnerability of such a low HP unit. | ||
|
MegaTerran
214 Posts
| ||
|
SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
| ||
|
ToastieNL
Netherlands845 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:53 MegaTerran wrote: terran has no anti-air so he has to use marines. in sc1 he had goliaphs and valkiries. Terran AA: Viking, Thor, Raven, Battlecruiser, (Marine), Ghost, Missile Turret (which really rocks) Protoss AA: Sentry (lol), Stalker, Phoenix, Void Ray, Carrier, Mothership (note, the last 4 require a no- detection tech path and are all AtA), High Templar Zerg AA: Queen, Hydralisk, Mutalisk, Corruptor, Infestor Protoss and Zerg AA Turrets aren't as effective as the Missile Turret. Seriously, Terran has a very incredibly strong army when they slowpush with enough Tanks and Thors. | ||
|
Proto_Protoss
United States495 Posts
| ||
|
avilo
United States4100 Posts
in SC1, TvZ was marine/medic + vessel/tanks, it's similar in SC2. And then SC1 TvP was entirely mech, whereas SC2 TvP is marauder/viking/ghost with marines as well. TvT SC2...you can literally do wtf you want as long as you execute it well. There's like 500 different things that own mass marine TvT. Where are people and OP getting that mass marine is prevalent TvT / TvP? | ||
|
Penecks
United States600 Posts
| ||
|
DminusTerran
Canada1337 Posts
On December 08 2010 02:05 Proto_Protoss wrote: Personally im in favor of reducing their range to 5 and making it a factory upgrade (Reapers speed) to increase range of marine like in BW. But unlike BW we dont have units like Lurkers and reavers which absolutley RAPE marines. Collosus does well but marauders blah blah blah Banelings micro micro micro blah blah blah....You get the point. But its difficult to balance marines out they arent powerful in small numbers buts its not difficult to get them massed up with Reactors honestly Reactors are my only problem its basically 50/50 to create another barracks just for marines. in BW if someone wanted to mass marines they would have to invest in more Rax at 150 so if your mass marines didnt work out well. Firebats are not going to save you like Marauders. so basically with Reactors investing into marines is not so detrimental to the economy like a 150 rax. then deciding your going to go Mech instead. Reactors ok well just swap out Rax reactor for Starports now 2x vikings. But from the game developer stand point we know the purpose of Reactors/Techlabs is to allow easy tech switches. So with out making SC2 into BW i wouldn't know how to change the power of marines. Basically we just have to deal with them because they will probably never be changed. Marines are 5 range, did you mean reducing it to 4? | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
| ||
|
ltortoise
633 Posts
On December 08 2010 02:25 travis wrote: people have said it before but my only problem with marines is their attack animation. their attack animation literally takes no time at all which allows for the possibility of INSANE MICRO, something that no other unit in the game have. all other units in the game have cooldowns on their attack animations so u can't fucking stutter step them with instant attacks over and over. give marines a delay in their attack animation but keep their damage the same. this will make marines harder to micro, and it will especially help with the ridiculous cheese rushes we see of marine + scv. If anything I'd prefer other units in the game had their attack animation cooldowns removed (or shortened) rather than one added to marines. Nerfing micro seems horrible to me. | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On December 08 2010 02:26 ltortoise wrote: If anything I'd prefer other units in the game had their attack animation cooldowns removed (or shortened) rather than one added to marines. Nerfing micro seems horrible to me. that's not nerfing micro, that's making it more difficult every unit in sc:bw had cooldowns on their animations. they simply made it WAY EASIER with the marine in sc2. it takes more skill to micro other units. the reason ranged units shouldn't be thaaat easy to micro is that it gives ridiculous advantages vs melee units, and it just so happens that T starts with ranged units but P and Z start with melee units. | ||
|
tGhOeOoDry
United States48 Posts
What we are talking about here isn't the game, it's the metagame. Terran players are having the most success with early attacks and and often failing in the lategame. The armchair analysis of the original post seems well-thought out, but it assumes that Terran players won't figure out new late game strategies in the future; I do not believe that is an appropriate assumption. The best players in the world see this same issue with their armies and are working up solutions for it. Once the best Zerg and Protoss players figure out the early Marine all-ins it will accelerate the process. Eventually, players better than myself will figure out Terran late game. If, in a couple months, they don't, then we will know that there is an actual gameplay problem. As it is, these early marine pushes are an annoying metagame trend that will get figured out and moved beyond like others before it. | ||
|
ChaosWielder
United States166 Posts
On December 08 2010 02:26 ltortoise wrote: If anything I'd prefer other units in the game had their attack animation cooldowns removed (or shortened) rather than one added to marines. Nerfing micro seems horrible to me. It's also worth noting that the animation for the marine is outrageous beyond compare. I mean, the gun is still firing even when he's walking away. If Blizz wants marines to behave like this, and that's a contestable point, they should at least make the gun stop firing. It looks sloppy from a viewer's perspective. | ||
|
scDeluX
Canada1341 Posts
| ||
| ||
