EPTI feel if Zerg could go Roaches to counter mass marine it would at least force the Terran to do something else.. but nope, Marines beat roaches.
The Problem with Marines - Page 10
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SovSov
United States755 Posts
I feel if Zerg could go Roaches to counter mass marine it would at least force the Terran to do something else.. but nope, Marines beat roaches. | ||
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anotherone
90 Posts
Mech vs Z = Muta ownage, Mech vs P = dont even think about it, air only to counter collosus or few banshees for rush but nothing more than that. Bring back spider mines and replace that shitty Thor with Goliath then we can think about doing something else than MMM what is easy pwned by baneling 1A and HTs anyway. | ||
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On December 08 2010 05:22 RoosterSamurai wrote: I think a nerf to marine DPS would only be do-able if there was also a nerf to baneling splash area. And I'm sure no Zerg would argue against a baneling nerf if it meant something OTHER than banelings could be used to hold marines in check. For the record, banelings actually do EVEN BETTER against zerglings than they do marines, so you'd be making zerglings more viable in ZvZ as well. +1 vote for that suggestion from me. | ||
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gnutz
Germany666 Posts
Oh wait ... Terra would be underpowered | ||
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Igaryu85
Germany195 Posts
I dont really have a problem with this but sometimes I wonder how much harder it would get to stop a terran if he would actually place his tanks a bit better. I know my macro is relatively weak but against terran it sometimes feels like I am just barely holding on to the game allthough I am at like 3 base and they one base since aeons. I think the main problem with rines is that they can ball up so nicely and are just so much smaller than most units. The higher range also lets roaches, that ussually should be a relatively good counter to marines and actually even are if both in small numbers, totally melt away against a marine ball which is kind of annoying. I dont know I guess the size of the marines is one major point and the attack animation probably too. The suggestions for reducing the range to 4 before getting an upgrade seems interesting too but really I have no clue how this would impact balance. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10328 Posts
Have them have 4 range and need to upgrade to 5 may be? For such a versatile unit, they should need more upgrades to make up. | ||
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TheDrill
Russian Federation145 Posts
On December 08 2010 05:48 Igaryu85 wrote: I have to agree with SovSov one of the major problems for us zerg is that marines and actually alot of the terran arsenal are really only stoppable with banes. I dont really have a problem with this but sometimes I wonder how much harder it would get to stop a terran if he would actually place his tanks a bit better. I know my macro is relatively weak but against terran it sometimes feels like I am just barely holding on to the game allthough I am at like 3 base and they one base since aeons. I think the main problem with rines is that they can ball up so nicely and are just so much smaller than most units. The higher range also lets roaches, that ussually should be a relatively good counter to marines and actually even are if both in small numbers, totally melt away against a marine ball which is kind of annoying. I dont know I guess the size of the marines is one major point and the attack animation probably too. The suggestions for reducing the range to 4 before getting an upgrade seems interesting too but really I have no clue how this would impact balance. Load banelings into lords for carpet bombings. I'm dead serious. It even beats marauder cost for cost. No counter to this short of mass viking mass medic paratroopers that pack up and leave as soon as the cloud of lords approaches. Terrans haven't learned how to use vikings to beat mutas though, so you're safe from that. --- The reason terran builds so many marines is because mech sucks and marauders suck against non-armored units. I've found tanks to be the absolute worst unit in the game against protoss. Chargelots, blink stalkers, colossi and in small fights - immortals remove them from the game forever. Then there are the fenixes and carriers that just carry them away from your feeble terran, mechanical claws. If you try to cite the naama/mana game as proof of the opposite, I will rape you. Mana sort of teched to templar every time he fought tanks and died to a timing push just before his templar upgrades finished. The blizzcon loner vs genius game is proof of how a non-bad protoss handles it. Tanks are just complete and utter shit outside of TvT. | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
I dont think you can just discount banelings because someone can micro away from them; micro doesn't change the fact that X counters Y; hellions still counter lings even when they get a total surround and die in 0.4 seconds.. | ||
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
I feel that the current TvP is fine. Late game in TvP is manageable for both races, although I do find amulet upgraded HT that can be warped anywhere on the map imba. But TvZ has a huge gaping hole in it. Terran must do early aggression to the point of all in, as fighting against late game Zerg is too scary of an alternative. Hellion is a poor mimicry of Vulture. Hellion can not perform the bread and butter role of Vulture at all. Tanks are more expensive in SC2 and are actually weaker than their BW counterparts (except when unsieged). Thor is something of a confusion. It is strong enough as a main army damage dealer, yet too slow and too large to be microable. Its range makes it an anti-air specialist. Yet its only usefulness in anti-air is scaring away muta. Thor can't even kill them due to magic box. Thor is absolutely useless against pretty much all other air-units except maybe Banshee. I want Blizzard to buff Terran Mech somehow. As it stands, Terran's late game system is no better than its early game. | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
Once medivacs are in play it's so hard to do damage to the marine ball, as they outdps your army for cost, and they are pretty durable with healing. Thus you need infestors, banelings or ultralisks for the splash. Protoss has basically the same problem. When enough marines get in the infantry ball zealots evaporate before they do damage, stalkers don't do nearly enough damage and cost a ton. Therefore you need colossus or templar. But it seems like, the argument should be that you shouldn't have to have high tech units to counter the tier 1 of terran. And maybe that fits into the OP... if the marine isn't super strong early game then i don't need to rush colossus/templar.. But late game the marine can be strong because i'll probably have those counter units available. Just like cracklings in BW. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
Maybe it will maybe it wont, but it kinda defeats the purpose of mindgames, variety and teching. I actually have a friend who goes mass marine always, he once cleared out my ultra-infestor-baneling 3/3 army with pure Marines + Medevac support I dont care if it's imbalanced or not, it is surely retarded | ||
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Moragon
United States355 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4838 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:24 DuneBug wrote: Once medivacs are in play it's so hard to do damage to the marine ball, as they outdps your army for cost, and they are pretty durable with healing. Thus you need infestors, banelings or ultralisks for the splash. Protoss has basically the same problem. When enough marines get in the infantry ball zealots evaporate before they do damage, stalkers don't do nearly enough damage and cost a ton. Therefore you need colossus or templar. But it seems like, the argument should be that you shouldn't have to have high tech units to counter the tier 1 of terran. And maybe that fits into the OP... I used to grump about this, until I realized Marine/Marauder/Stim could be dealt with by forcefielding or by draining out their stim, so that Protoss tier 1 can combat Terran tier 1. It's true that when Medivacs show up, Protoss needs higher tech than Terran to combat the bioball, but Medivacs are close enough to the top of the tech tree that that's OK. That said, I would appreciate gentle marine nerfs (delay their stutter step, enlarge their footprint slightly) and some buffs to Mech units. | ||
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kYem
United Kingdom412 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:24 Geo.Rion wrote: what i always found hillarious is this MarineKing style play. It's absicly saying before the game, i will go marines, i always went, go ahead and try to counter it. Maybe it will maybe it wont, but it kinda defeats the purpose of mindgames, variety and teching. I actually have a friend who goes mass marine always, he once cleared out my ultra-infestor-baneling 3/3 army with pure Marines + Medevac support I dont care if it's imbalanced or not, it is surely retarded How bad did you played to lose vs that ? replay or it didn't happened. On serious note, marines are core unit of terran if you nerf that you have to buff other units A LOT. Rather i thing they are fine. The reason we see marines doing incredible damage is upgrades which other races neglecting a lot, while terran now have a priority to go upgrades asap. I start my upgrades after stim/combat shield asap | ||
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crueknight
United States21 Posts
When can you actually run up a ramp with a few zealots and win? When can you beat a couple starting stalkers with less than a handful of marines? Starting counters: Banelings+Speedlings Roaches Zealots (esp with legs) Stalkers umm, how much more do you need? | ||
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
Something is going to be done by blizz i believe, since they were talking about perhaps nefing stim. Personally i wish they made infantry weaker, but brought back the medic with techlab. Basically T would have to get some medics with his marine army for it to become really powerful. Mixing in some medics also means there is less room for marines to fire, and also less marines since u spent some minerals on medics. And it would create more opportunity for micro with marine medic marauder. But its wishful thinking. Maybe in an expansion? | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:34 kYem wrote: On serious note, marines are core unit of terran if you nerf that you have to buff other units A LOT. Zerglings and Zealots are core units to Z and P armies and yet we don't seem them making up 80-100% of their respective races armies in 90% of the games played do we? I guess Terrans are special though, they shouldn't be expected to make more than 1 type of unit in order to have a balanced army. Terran is the "Do what you want and the other guy has to adjust" race... Must be nice... | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On December 08 2010 07:34 kYem wrote: How bad did you played to lose vs that ? replay or it didn't happened. On serious note, marines are core unit of terran if you nerf that you have to buff other units A LOT. Rather i thing they are fine. The reason we see marines doing incredible damage is upgrades which other races neglecting a lot, while terran now have a priority to go upgrades asap. I start my upgrades after stim/combat shield asap i actually have the rep if you're really intresed what happend is it was scrap station and i attacked on his third base, tried to take out the command center whihc cost me some banes, and the rest my army pretty much died to kill his army but a new set of 12 marines arrived to the battle and won it for him. I still ended up winning, because of my macro advantage, barely though. So no, i actually wasnt playing bad, and won, but i was just ourtaged what should have been the killing blow almost made me lose the entire game. | ||
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