EPTI guess you want to take away its early game effectiveness and increase its late game power. I could not disagree with this more. I love the idea of something being powerful early on, but we need to transition into something else when this unit becomes less viable. The timings and transitions in this game are what make it interesting and difficult to master. If the marine remains a great unit from early to late game it'll make Terran so one dimensional and boring to watch.
The Problem with Marines - Page 12
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Zim23
United States1681 Posts
I guess you want to take away its early game effectiveness and increase its late game power. I could not disagree with this more. I love the idea of something being powerful early on, but we need to transition into something else when this unit becomes less viable. The timings and transitions in this game are what make it interesting and difficult to master. If the marine remains a great unit from early to late game it'll make Terran so one dimensional and boring to watch. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
People are now referring to the MULE and citing that as a source of imbalance. This is definitely a contributory cause to the marine issue, but it is not the main cause. Zerg and Toss have ways to boost their worker counters rather quickly with chrono and spawn larvae. I disagree. I think MULEs are fundamental - to the early game problems at least - and I think you're missing a crucial difference: spawn larvae and chronoboost are ways to spend money faster. MULEs are a way to get money faster. Yes, absolutely, P and Z can spend that money on workers and eventually recoup the investment, thus creating the impression of 'balance'. However, things look very different when you consider what happens when money is being spent on units in the early game. For zerg, using the extra larvae to make units, or using Queen energy to spread creep, is like a Terran using a scan instead of calling down a MULE. It's the same for Protoss using Chronoboost to speed up the production of a combat unit or an upgrade: it puts their economy behind. But a Terran pretty much can't put his economy behind in the very early game. He can't make more SCVs than he already is; MULE money is unit/structure money, pure and simple. That's why early rushes are so potent, especially vs Zerg: they come at a time where the Terran economy is essentially perfect, yet force the Zerg to deviate from the ideal simply to survive. Even if the initial push fails to win the game, it cannot help but succeed in putting the Zerg behind. The more aggressive the Terran is, the more his perfect economy will continue to outstrip the Zerg's, even if the Zerg defends perfectly. Add to that the fact that marines are generally ready before speed/banelings, and stim is always ready before baneling speed, and you get the current state of TvZ. | ||
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Stoned
United States69 Posts
ya i know ideas are everything | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On December 08 2010 10:42 Stoned wrote: maybe people should go into a custom game and see how many marines/scvs get killed when attacking into 2 yes 2 spinecrawlers wait what about 3 spine crawlers OMG maybe if zerg doesnt build more than 3 sets of lings nor their second queen they will have money to put down 2-3 spines at which terran CAN NOT attack into it at that point zerg STOPS building lings, doesnt upgrade speed and instead makes their second queen and ALL drones and go from there ya i know ideas are everything Just to be clear: where are we putting these 2-3 spines? | ||
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cannavaro
Italy86 Posts
However, terran doesn't have such a linear techtree where you could just put it at the end of it, since the terran techtree splits into factory/starport. now comes the problem, should an upgrade this powerful just require an armory? I don't think so, it would somehow need to have the timing of a hive, which is only gotten in the very late game. the only thing that would somehow emulate this would be having it require armory AND fusion core, which then again would be quite silly to upgrade a t1 ground unit, but I can't think of a good way to simulate the role that a hive plays for zerg. (maybe remove the fusion core from my suggestion, making the upgrade only need armory, but make the upgrade very costly and take a long time to research) for the nerf, the marine could get like -1 dmg which comes back after researching combat shields, yes makes no sense, but would probably work. edit: having the oc start with 25 energy could work too, those few seconds in which he cannot yet afford to pull his scvs might make the timing windows slightly more forgiving. | ||
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Stoned
United States69 Posts
On December 08 2010 11:00 Umpteen wrote: Just to be clear: where are we putting these 2-3 spines? at your professional map set up choke obviously they have nice range lets space them out so they cover your crap | ||
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Hellye
Portugal62 Posts
On December 08 2010 09:44 MythicalMage wrote: I wouldn't call this a balance thread so much as a game design thread. The issue with the marine stems from poor design. It affects balance sure, but that's not what the OP is about. The discussion on the other hand. . . Well let's put it this way. I could make a thread and say "Dark Templar are good against drones." And people would not only argue it, but turn it into a full blown balance discussion. i never said it was. I was just stating that people who want to turn this into one shouldnt be welcome to. Furthermore i would like to ask those who are concern about how weak is terran in late game ,because of how weak marines are when higher tech is reached, how is it that junro can still do good against all matchups in a straight up macro game? Dont come to this thread asking for buffs to late marines cause that is ridiculous and is not helping deal with the design flaw it is being discuss. | ||
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Elwar
953 Posts
Terran does have alternative options to the marine once the opponent has teched up to units that counter them. Vikings are the best air anti-air unit in the game, marauders have great DPS, tanks supply huge DPS if positioned properly, thors have amazing DPS, blue-flame hellions have great DPS against light units (ie. the units that give the rest of a mech army trouble), banshees have great DPS etc. There are other options that aren't just 'more marines'. The whole terran army is really versatile and cost-efficient. The ease and usability of MMM has just given Terrans tunnel-vision. How many times have I seen a terran open MMM and never bother making any additional units even if it goes to late-game? Nearly every single pro-game I watch where the terran opens MMM. You never see a protoss or zerg stay on limited tech past the mid-game if early aggression fails. I don't buy for a second that tech-switching is too costly. Protoss switch from gateways to stargates to robotics to templar and back again all the time. You don't need to protect or replace the marines DPS dealing ability late-game IMO, at least not until there has been more time to figure out the late-game. | ||
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
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Ridiculisk
Australia191 Posts
They're not Overpowered, but the production rate, and available upgrades make them the most versatile tier 1 unit in the game. Personally I think that Stim and combat shield should be tier 2 upgrades, OR they should cost more. That might shift that early game balance around abit? Alternativly an increase in the build time/cost of Reactors? This is a hard one to balance. Like you said Marines are important, but they are just too effective early game to be worth 50mins IMO. | ||
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bobcat
United States488 Posts
Marines can all shoot while only the front line of lings hit. Marines can hit before they are in melee range giving them a head start on dps. They can stim for a 20% damage boost losing considerably less hp than they do damage. They have an upgrade that improves their raw hp. No other upgrade aside from weapons + gives a unit a raw increase in their ability. Join a custom game playing as terran and just make mass marines. You will be surprised how long you can survive on marines and good micro. Against toss it's untill they get mass stalker+sentry, or colossi or templar. Against zerg it's fungal + good micro + baneling flanking. I would wholeheartedly agree with blizzard buffing some of terrans other forms of play and nerfing marines so that T would lose this "I have to all in every single game" mindset and learn how to play a long game. | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
On December 08 2010 10:25 Zim23 wrote: So from what I understand you are arguing that the marine is very powerful in the early game (agreed) but not powerful in the late game (agreed), and that this is a problem? Why is it a problem? I think the marine's viability is extended greatly by upgrades and medivacs, but in the end it's a T1 unit that doesn't need to be strong in the late game. The reason Terran players aren't comfortable with the late game is more because they haven't unlocked all the nuances and timings of the race. I guess you want to take away its early game effectiveness and increase its late game power. I could not disagree with this more. I love the idea of something being powerful early on, but we need to transition into something else when this unit becomes less viable. The timings and transitions in this game are what make it interesting and difficult to master. If the marine remains a great unit from early to late game it'll make Terran so one dimensional and boring to watch. Read the OP, marines fulfill some roles efficiently until higher tech from opposing player, some of those roles can be fulfilled by higher tech terran units, but not nearly as efficiently. Look at TvP and the terran's options for anti-air. Thors suck, vikings are good, but require you to get an exact amount or else you either lose the game from having not enough anti-ground, or lose the game after landing the vikings because they suck on ground and/or you get overrun in the air field because you lost your vikings just to survive. | ||
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Slago
Canada726 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On December 08 2010 13:56 Blyadischa wrote: Read the OP, marines fulfill some roles efficiently until higher tech from opposing player, some of those roles can be fulfilled by higher tech terran units, but not nearly as efficiently. Look at TvP and the terran's options for anti-air. Thors suck, vikings are good, but require you to get an exact amount or else you either lose the game from having not enough anti-ground, or lose the game after landing the vikings because they suck on ground and/or you get overrun in the air field because you lost your vikings just to survive. Gas is a limited ressource, even in the lategame. The problem you are describing here is purely hypothetic. In an actual game, your opponent wont be going for mass high templar and void rays, for example. Templars, colossi, banelings, infestors, and so on, are all really gas heavy. So in an actual game, your opponent who is going for templars to fight off your marines, will likely have something like templar-zealots, that is a lot more common simply due to gas restrictions. and in that case, sure, you run the risk of losing your ultra cheap super efficient anti air marines, but at that point, air control isnt going to be a problem, since if all your opponent's gas is invested in killing your marines, 3 vikings will be enough to guarantee air control. Your opponent can do a lot of different strategies, but its always important to remember that he cant be doing all of them at the same time. marines are really good against most air, and the more gas he invests in killing your marines, the less air he has. On the other hand, the more he invests in air, the less gas he has left to kill marines with. | ||
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MegaTerran
214 Posts
On December 08 2010 01:58 ToastieNL wrote: Terran AA: Viking, Thor, Raven, Battlecruiser, (Marine), Ghost, Missile Turret (which really rocks) Protoss AA: Sentry (lol), Stalker, Phoenix, Void Ray, Carrier, Mothership (note, the last 4 require a no- detection tech path and are all AtA), High Templar Zerg AA: Queen, Hydralisk, Mutalisk, Corruptor, Infestor Protoss and Zerg AA Turrets aren't as effective as the Missile Turret. Seriously, Terran has a very incredibly strong army when they slowpush with enough Tanks and Thors. the main thing is that viking is shit. thor is too slow and only good vs light. raven's turret is a joke. battlecruiser - hm.. do terrans have that unit? i'v never seen them  ghost - useless. and yes, missle turrets and marines is only good terran's anti air.while toss has fenixes and stalkers (and psi templars). and zerg has mutas and hydras (and infestors). | ||
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Mr_Kzimir
France268 Posts
Marines are op and should be nerfed ? FFS do you even realize why they are so good ? Have you watch day9 Funday Monday where marines where completely forbidden ? Marines is the backbone of your damn terran army , no marines = no cost effective way to spend your minerals , since all your damn unit cost a HELLA LOT OF GAZ and have a ridiculous build time. | ||
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Mahavishnu
Canada396 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On December 08 2010 18:10 MegaTerran wrote: the main thing is that viking is shit. thor is too slow and only good vs light. raven's turret is a joke. battlecruiser - hm.. do terrans have that unit? i'v never seen them ghost - useless. and yes, missle turrets and marines is only good terran's anti air.while toss has fenixes and stalkers (and psi templars). and zerg has mutas and hydras (and infestors). Well, apparently you have terrible knowledge of the other terran antiair options, so sure, you have to rely on marines more. For example, ghosts are not useless. They are great against all light units. emp on banshees to prevent cloak and reveal, emp on phoenixes to stop them lifting things up, and remove shields, and snipe on mutas, or broodlords, along with awesome dps on all the light units. Ghosts are incredibly effective against all light air units. And vikings are pretty damn good against all armored flyers, except corruptors really. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On December 08 2010 18:10 MegaTerran wrote: the main thing is that viking is shit. thor is too slow and only good vs light. raven's turret is a joke. battlecruiser - hm.. do terrans have that unit? i'v never seen them ghost - useless. and yes, missle turrets and marines is only good terran's anti air.while toss has fenixes and stalkers (and psi templars). and zerg has mutas and hydras (and infestors). Lol, you listed hydras up there as a primary anti-air option. So funny. | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
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