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Harvesting units no longer avoid enemy units.
What?! Does this mean 2 zerglings in my mineral line = all my probes attacking those zerglings?
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How come there's no PTR for europe?? Was it always like this with other games?
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I would assume right now 33% of sc2 players are happy with the new patch. Thankfully i'm one of the 33%. This patch is huge, and i am glad that the ptr will give players a chance to test it out.
Each race has 1 aoe spell.
HT is an all purpose aoe, but takes 4 seconds to do damage meaning that it usually only hits for parts of that dmg.
Ghost are a specialized anti-caster unit and anti-protoss unit that does instant damage and removes shields.
Infestors are the solution to kiting. Infestors + banes = amazing. This hasn't changed.
Phoenix can't hit buildings and are horrible against a single anti-air static defense, therefore, phoenix play is still risky and hard to do, but now that infestors don't destory 10+ phoenix in an instant. at least protoss can go phoenix against mutas.
Mutas are still great. They can be produced much faster than phoenix and the only real danger for zerg lies in if they phoenix number gets really large as they can kite, but while on even grounds, mutas can hold their own for the most part.
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On December 04 2010 18:00 Shizuru~ wrote:
am i reading this right?
A patch that has 0 nerf to protoss and with buffs slap on to it?
Switch 'protoss' with 'terran/zerg' and you have every protosses thought for every single patch since beta.
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On December 04 2010 18:02 Bluetea wrote:
Harvesting units no longer avoid enemy units.
What?! Does this mean 2 zerglings in my mineral line = all my probes attacking those zerglings?
no it means you can't pass through zealot walls with a drone or scv anymore etc by clicking on mineral patches to "float" them through. or if they're in the mineral line they'll go around attacking zerglings. they won't attack unless you tell them to.
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On December 04 2010 18:00 Mojeca wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 17:54 MementoMori wrote:On December 04 2010 17:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 17:32 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. pheonix is ridic over powered? i guess that explains why inControl Kiwikaki Chief HuK InCa Sangho sSKS didn't make it into the GSL because they didn't use phoenixs right? Obviously you understand how protosses work better than those players. On December 04 2010 17:36 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 17:28 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 15:55 travis wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. i agree about the rest but if phoenix is so powerful then why do i never see it used in pvt (and not even very much in pvz... more lately though.) just serious question Dunno why nobody uses stargate units outside Korea, but phoenix are ridic broken on scrap station already. yes because banshees and mutas aren't. in another words a map that favors air units make 1 race's air units over powered but not another race's air units. very logical. Oh and when was the last time we had a pro tournament level match where we saw phoenix absolutely rape the crap out of the enemy? hm... back in the HDH when Nony first popularized it? Yeah.. phoenix OP my ass. Imo phoenixs were fine the way they were (as a 2k toss), this new buff is interesting but it may be important in the highest levels of play. Considering phoenixes make banshees useless on scrap station.... I said ridiculously POWERFUL not OVERPOWERED. There are plenty of units that are ridiculously powerful but not overpowered already. And your argument about them not making it into the GSL is a complete strawman, it has nothing to do with fucking phoenixes wtf. Fact: phoenix builds are ridiculously strong on scrap station and certain other maps vs terran. Why are you people arguing with Jinro haha. Do you honestly think you know better than him? It boggles the mind. I don't really know the specifics of phoenix play in matchups other than zerg, but I'm gonna take his word for it. I am obviously nowhere near as good as Jinro; However if he told me zealots countered mutas I wouldn't take his word for it. Everyone is just stating opinions, we have had VERY little time to test this new patch out. The Phx unit also didnt change AT ALL! All that changed was the timings.
I disagree because chrono'd pheonix can do a lot of damage so quickly and end the game easily if a zerg doesnt invest in 5 queens within the first 10-12 minutes. Pheonix's can easily take out queens and then kill overlords and then kill drones. it's all just a massacre for zerg.
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So late game when I am capped and have absurd amount of minerals/gas and larva, I have to press one at a time to refill my entire army? Well that sucks
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On December 04 2010 17:59 spacemonkeyy wrote:
Oh I forgot we aren't allowed to have opinions different to Jinro's.
Of course you are allowed but if you are going to argue against something he says then you damn well better do it in a polite and well thought out manner.
When someone has proven their credentials in a field then their arguments tend to carry a little more weight than the average Joe's. This is true for anything, not just Starcraft.
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On December 04 2010 18:05 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I disagree because chrono'd pheonix can do a lot of damage so quickly and end the game easily if a zerg doesnt invest in 5 queens within the first 10-12 minutes. Pheonix's can easily take out queens and then kill overlords and then kill drones. it's all just a massacre for zerg.
Phoenix die to static anti air aka spores. So scout the stargate, build a spore or two. I don't think this patch gave phoenix the ability to lift spores -__-
Or turrets for that matter (to terrans complaining about it on scrap station).
I mean really, for zerg, every other race has had to consider where to put supply placement (pylons and depots). Zerg have to consider this too. Put overlords near spores. Build an early spore if you see a stargate.
And remember a stargate early = late gateway units. Possible opportunity?
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Seems like a great patch!
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On December 04 2010 18:05 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:00 Mojeca wrote:On December 04 2010 17:54 MementoMori wrote:On December 04 2010 17:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 17:32 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. pheonix is ridic over powered? i guess that explains why inControl Kiwikaki Chief HuK InCa Sangho sSKS didn't make it into the GSL because they didn't use phoenixs right? Obviously you understand how protosses work better than those players. On December 04 2010 17:36 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 17:28 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 15:55 travis wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. i agree about the rest but if phoenix is so powerful then why do i never see it used in pvt (and not even very much in pvz... more lately though.) just serious question Dunno why nobody uses stargate units outside Korea, but phoenix are ridic broken on scrap station already. yes because banshees and mutas aren't. in another words a map that favors air units make 1 race's air units over powered but not another race's air units. very logical. Oh and when was the last time we had a pro tournament level match where we saw phoenix absolutely rape the crap out of the enemy? hm... back in the HDH when Nony first popularized it? Yeah.. phoenix OP my ass. Imo phoenixs were fine the way they were (as a 2k toss), this new buff is interesting but it may be important in the highest levels of play. Considering phoenixes make banshees useless on scrap station.... I said ridiculously POWERFUL not OVERPOWERED. There are plenty of units that are ridiculously powerful but not overpowered already. And your argument about them not making it into the GSL is a complete strawman, it has nothing to do with fucking phoenixes wtf. Fact: phoenix builds are ridiculously strong on scrap station and certain other maps vs terran. Why are you people arguing with Jinro haha. Do you honestly think you know better than him? It boggles the mind. I don't really know the specifics of phoenix play in matchups other than zerg, but I'm gonna take his word for it. I am obviously nowhere near as good as Jinro; However if he told me zealots countered mutas I wouldn't take his word for it. Everyone is just stating opinions, we have had VERY little time to test this new patch out. The Phx unit also didnt change AT ALL! All that changed was the timings. I disagree because chrono'd pheonix can do a lot of damage so quickly and end the game easily if a zerg doesnt invest in 5 queens within the first 10-12 minutes. Pheonix's can easily take out queens and then kill overlords and then kill drones. it's all just a massacre for zerg.
Wait, refresh my memory, how do phx end a game? Oh right, with their yamato cannon right? They are SO OP at killing buildings.
Trolling aside, queens win against phx and dont cost gas. Same with static D. Queens dont die very fast to phx either, especially with transfuse.
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I love the changes. Love them. Love them. Love them, LOVE THEM.
Yes. I love them!
And yeah, I play protoss. It's like... a patch dedicated to me. I always hated the 2 pylon prison on the ramps. I never wanted to do it but if you didn't do it you were kind of an idiot. Finally it's gone. I love phoenix but they were just not a good enough counter to mutalisks or vikings that you would want to use them unless you were really,really confident with your micro. Now they are totally valid.
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On December 04 2010 18:05 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:00 Mojeca wrote:On December 04 2010 17:54 MementoMori wrote:On December 04 2010 17:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 17:32 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. pheonix is ridic over powered? i guess that explains why inControl Kiwikaki Chief HuK InCa Sangho sSKS didn't make it into the GSL because they didn't use phoenixs right? Obviously you understand how protosses work better than those players. On December 04 2010 17:36 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 17:28 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 15:55 travis wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. i agree about the rest but if phoenix is so powerful then why do i never see it used in pvt (and not even very much in pvz... more lately though.) just serious question Dunno why nobody uses stargate units outside Korea, but phoenix are ridic broken on scrap station already. yes because banshees and mutas aren't. in another words a map that favors air units make 1 race's air units over powered but not another race's air units. very logical. Oh and when was the last time we had a pro tournament level match where we saw phoenix absolutely rape the crap out of the enemy? hm... back in the HDH when Nony first popularized it? Yeah.. phoenix OP my ass. Imo phoenixs were fine the way they were (as a 2k toss), this new buff is interesting but it may be important in the highest levels of play. Considering phoenixes make banshees useless on scrap station.... I said ridiculously POWERFUL not OVERPOWERED. There are plenty of units that are ridiculously powerful but not overpowered already. And your argument about them not making it into the GSL is a complete strawman, it has nothing to do with fucking phoenixes wtf. Fact: phoenix builds are ridiculously strong on scrap station and certain other maps vs terran. Why are you people arguing with Jinro haha. Do you honestly think you know better than him? It boggles the mind. I don't really know the specifics of phoenix play in matchups other than zerg, but I'm gonna take his word for it. I am obviously nowhere near as good as Jinro; However if he told me zealots countered mutas I wouldn't take his word for it. Everyone is just stating opinions, we have had VERY little time to test this new patch out. The Phx unit also didnt change AT ALL! All that changed was the timings. I disagree because chrono'd pheonix can do a lot of damage so quickly and end the game easily if a zerg doesnt invest in 5 queens within the first 10-12 minutes. Pheonix's can easily take out queens and then kill overlords and then kill drones. it's all just a massacre for zerg.
Why get 5 queens when you can get 1 spore crawler? Pheonix aren't mutalisks or banshees, they can't lift buildings. Sure building spore crawlers sucks but so does having to build cannons or turrets, it's just what you do.
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On December 04 2010 18:07 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:05 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
I disagree because chrono'd pheonix can do a lot of damage so quickly and end the game easily if a zerg doesnt invest in 5 queens within the first 10-12 minutes. Pheonix's can easily take out queens and then kill overlords and then kill drones. it's all just a massacre for zerg.
Phoenix die to static anti air aka turrets. So scout the stargate, build a spore or two. I don't think this patch gave phoenix the ability to lift spores -__- Or turrets for that matter (to terrans complaining about it on scrap station).
Do you have any idea how quickly 6 pheonix's can wipe out a saturated base and take a couple hits and retreat? I've tested it, and I've dealt with it in ladder. Pheonix's can take a hit from spores while they take out 5-6 drones in a few seconds. What the problem is, is that the time it takes to get a good amount of phoenix's is so short that your economy will never be able to kick in. not only that but protoss is also investing in heavy zealots. It's insanely difficult to defend both and this is coming from experience. You can't even veto maps, so you're pretty screwed if you get delta quadrant or scrap station
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FG nerf is already a buff to phoenix, so why buff phoenix more?
The only thing I can see FG being OP is when catching 30 mutas, but that happends so rare. Vs. medivacs, phoenixes, viking it is no way OP.
And very strange change with producing zerg units. That's a nerf to zerg macro, cause you can't produce units as fast.
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On December 04 2010 17:51 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 17:46 w_Ender_w wrote:
What's with the 100 post or less people trying to argue with jinro? The best is the guy talking about Protoss players in the gsl... do you not realize his credentials?
Anyway, on topic, coming from the Terran perspective these are certainly interesting changes. Drops lategame will be much easier against Zerg. It'll be interesting to see if we see an influx of stargate play on the na servers. Can't wait for chat channels. Anyone have any info on what it'll take to get into Masters League? People are just trying to point out the options against phoenix, Jinro making incredibly huge statements like 'PHOENIX RIDIC POWERFUL' isn't exactly 100% helpful. And only build time has changed, not combat stats, not attack, not speed, nothing else. and I dont doubt that we'll see HEAPS of stargate play now. But that's expected - people will want to experiment at all levels. Thats progress. Thats a good thing.
The point wasn't so much the phoenix build time, but it being combined with the infestor nerf as well. He even said there was potential for infestor play that's just gone now, and he's right. If clumps of phoenix are going to be standard now, hydras+infestor would be a decent counter, but that possibility is completely removed with the infestor nerf.
you make it into the GSL and then you can tell us about the metagame
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Arguing with a recognized pro and respected member of TL isn't completely taboo, but when you type up half thought-out opinions in an insulting manner, you're going to catch shit. Stop and actually read what he wrote before having a seizure on your keyboard because someone much better than you at the game has a different opinion than you.
Put some effort into your post, be respectful, voice your opinion.
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Can I play on the PTR from Europe?
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EPT
