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I really hope this patch is toned down a bit before it's officially released.
There are just too many major changes. Sure a lot of them are good but doing so much at once is bound to end up doing more harm than good.
-The VR buff has huge implications for PvP. Possible there will be no more Colossus wars?
-Phoenix buff combined with nerf to FG could make Stargate the standard in PvZ
-Drops going to be impossible to deal with without Mutas in TvZ. Planetary Fortresses far easier to destroy.
-Mutas going to be ridiculously strong in ZvZ
It's just way too much. The game should not change this quickly.
I don't think anyone can accurately predict the possible outcome of this patch right now, and that includes Blizzard, it's just too much to process.
First priority for Blizzard should be producing better maps then making whatever balance tweaks are necessary.
Releasing the biggest balance patch yet at a time when the game is looking more balanced than ever just doesn't make sense to me.
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Don't understand why they had to break the interface in regards to some of the hotkeys and such. Why did select building worker move to "Q" everyone's already used to "T", why couldn't it be left alone, along with the hold button macro thing.
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On December 04 2010 17:46 w_Ender_w wrote:
What's with the 100 post or less people trying to argue with jinro? The best is the guy talking about Protoss players in the gsl... do you not realize his credentials?
Anyway, on topic, coming from the Terran perspective these are certainly interesting changes. Drops lategame will be much easier against Zerg. It'll be interesting to see if we see an influx of stargate play on the na servers. Can't wait for chat channels. Anyone have any info on what it'll take to get into Masters League?
People are just trying to point out the options against phoenix, Jinro making incredibly huge statements like 'PHOENIX RIDIC POWERFUL' isn't exactly 100% helpful. And only build time has changed, not combat stats, not attack, not speed, nothing else.
and I dont doubt that we'll see HEAPS of stargate play now. But that's expected - people will want to experiment at all levels. Thats progress.
Thats a good thing.
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On December 04 2010 17:45 kedinik wrote:Show nested quote +Oh and when was the last time we had a pro tournament level match where we saw phoenix absolutely rape the crap out of the enemy? Don't remember the names involved, but the GSL featured a protoss player absolutely annihilating a competent zerg player on scrap station with mass phoenixes. Toss was killing overlords, queens and roaches so fast that zerg could never build any kind of army.
I remember it too. GSL1, on scrap station. I don't think the zerg was great or anything but still a very good player. Strong Phoenix play is already hard to beat, with the patch it could be broken, especially on maps like scrap
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On December 04 2010 17:43 Zelniq wrote:
there's another change people didnt really notice i think, but it's nice. workers cant mineral walk through enemy units anymore, so you cant scout past units at a choke by right clicking minerals, nor can you escape when workers surround your scout. it's not huge but something to remember come next patch
I have a feeling I am going to lose a lot of scouting probes the first couple of days, damn it.
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• Protoss structures can no longer be powered without a power source if constructed while powered by a Warp Prism under the effects of Neural Parasite.
I guess this was a huuuge problem.
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On December 04 2010 17:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 17:32 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. pheonix is ridic over powered? i guess that explains why inControl Kiwikaki Chief HuK InCa Sangho sSKS didn't make it into the GSL because they didn't use phoenixs right? Obviously you understand how protosses work better than those players. On December 04 2010 17:36 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 17:28 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 15:55 travis wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. i agree about the rest but if phoenix is so powerful then why do i never see it used in pvt (and not even very much in pvz... more lately though.) just serious question Dunno why nobody uses stargate units outside Korea, but phoenix are ridic broken on scrap station already. yes because banshees and mutas aren't. in another words a map that favors air units make 1 race's air units over powered but not another race's air units. very logical. Oh and when was the last time we had a pro tournament level match where we saw phoenix absolutely rape the crap out of the enemy? hm... back in the HDH when Nony first popularized it? Yeah.. phoenix OP my ass. Imo phoenixs were fine the way they were (as a 2k toss), this new buff is interesting but it may be important in the highest levels of play. Considering phoenixes make banshees useless on scrap station.... I said ridiculously POWERFUL not OVERPOWERED. There are plenty of units that are ridiculously powerful but not overpowered already. And your argument about them not making it into the GSL is a complete strawman, it has nothing to do with fucking phoenixes wtf. Fact: phoenix builds are ridiculously strong on scrap station and certain other maps vs terran.
Why are you people arguing with Jinro haha. Do you honestly think you know better than him? It boggles the mind. I don't really know the specifics of phoenix play in matchups other than zerg, but I'm gonna take his word for it.
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On December 04 2010 17:44 Gooey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 17:39 Horuku wrote:
Can anyone confirm the having to push multiple times to spawn from larvae now?
That's the only thing I care about. I can adapt to the fungal growth change, but seriously gonna put me behind a bit on builds having to mash buttons multiple times. Kinda changes play style quiet a bit too since now I'll have to mash buttons more rather than holding it down and being done with it. Dumb change imo. Does this mean that other races have to push their buttons multiple times for all their stuff too? So mash a and d a ton for every single marine and maurader? I understand wanting to get some of the pro-micro back from BW days, but some of this stuff is just modernization (like rallying workers). Gotta be kidding me... The only time I even held a button down was to make banelings. I don't know why holding the button down would change your play style that drastically. And who in their right mind would down down A to queue up max marines? I don't get when is so horrible about this change. And micro doesn't even apply to building units out of larva... It is much easier to count the units that you make by pressing the button anyways. If anything, it is an annoyance.
It'll affect me hugely since I always use it. After you play a lot, you control the number of units you're making by being aware of how long you've been holding the hotkey down for.
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idra's twitter: "lol. fucking awful patch." definitely an understatement of how ignorant blizzard is in every aspect of the current meta game except the outcries of the silver league players
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Decrease in bunker timing is insanity, given the penchant for early marine and scv rushes sweeping TvZ atm.
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On December 04 2010 17:50 Exarl25 wrote:
-The VR buff has huge implications for PvP. Possible there will be no more Colossus wars?
-Phoenix buff combined with nerf to FG could make Stargate the standard in PvZ
-Drops going to be impossible to deal with without Mutas in TvZ. Planetary Fortresses far easier to destroy.
-Mutas going to be ridiculously strong in ZvZ
It's just way too much. The game should not change this quickly.
I don't think anyone can accurately predict the possible outcome of this patch right now, and that includes Blizzard, it's just too much to process.
First priority for Blizzard should be producing better maps then making whatever balance tweaks are necessary.
Releasing the biggest balance patch yet at a time when the game is looking more balanced than ever just doesn't make sense to me.
Void ray thing just brings them in the line with viking/corruptor usage vs colossi. For what I mean, see what any protoss does when his colossus army is met with vikings or corruptors.
As for vs terran massive...good luck with getting past marines with void rays huge range of 6.
Vs Zerg - this...I dunno yet really. I wonder if with phoenix change it was too much for zerg to deal with. I do wonder.
But I have faith in Blizz, if there is a huge problem I think it'll be seen in the PTR as protoss just rolling over everyone.
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On December 04 2010 17:56 TheYellowOne wrote:
idra's twitter: "lol. fucking awful patch." definitely an understatement of how ignorant blizzard is in every aspect of the current meta game except the outcries of the silver league players
Yep. And idra isn't biased to zerg in any way at aaall... -_-
Geez people. It's like you all think every foreigner who makes it into GSL is a god and is right about everything always.
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On December 04 2010 17:28 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
I have exacty the same concern , Bunker build time on defense is too long , on attack it is too short -_-
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pheonix change is such a joke. do you have any idea how it is to push back mass pheonix as zerg? the pheonix's are coming out much quicker than I can get out queens, and in big numbers they're able to pick off queens one by one even if I transfuse. I personally think it's broken now. What a dumb move by blizzard...
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Oh I forgot we aren't allowed to have opinions different to Jinro's.
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Building 20 lings is going to be really annoying now :-(
I dont see what was wrong with just holding down Z to mass produce units (or any other key)
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am i reading this right?
A patch that has 0 nerf to protoss and with buffs slap on to it?
damn the fungal nerf is huge, stargate/guineapig PVZ style openings is gonna be the new flavor of the month, and it also gives room for terran to do dropship micro-ing when going against infestors.
whats with the bunker buff anyways? lol
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Fungal change is completely retarded, really hope it doesnt make it live, but knowing Blizzard, it most likely will.
Really not a fan of the larva macro change either.
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On December 04 2010 17:54 MementoMori wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 17:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 17:32 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. pheonix is ridic over powered? i guess that explains why inControl Kiwikaki Chief HuK InCa Sangho sSKS didn't make it into the GSL because they didn't use phoenixs right? Obviously you understand how protosses work better than those players. On December 04 2010 17:36 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 17:28 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 15:55 travis wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. i agree about the rest but if phoenix is so powerful then why do i never see it used in pvt (and not even very much in pvz... more lately though.) just serious question Dunno why nobody uses stargate units outside Korea, but phoenix are ridic broken on scrap station already. yes because banshees and mutas aren't. in another words a map that favors air units make 1 race's air units over powered but not another race's air units. very logical. Oh and when was the last time we had a pro tournament level match where we saw phoenix absolutely rape the crap out of the enemy? hm... back in the HDH when Nony first popularized it? Yeah.. phoenix OP my ass. Imo phoenixs were fine the way they were (as a 2k toss), this new buff is interesting but it may be important in the highest levels of play. Considering phoenixes make banshees useless on scrap station.... I said ridiculously POWERFUL not OVERPOWERED. There are plenty of units that are ridiculously powerful but not overpowered already. And your argument about them not making it into the GSL is a complete strawman, it has nothing to do with fucking phoenixes wtf. Fact: phoenix builds are ridiculously strong on scrap station and certain other maps vs terran. Why are you people arguing with Jinro haha. Do you honestly think you know better than him? It boggles the mind. I don't really know the specifics of phoenix play in matchups other than zerg, but I'm gonna take his word for it.
I am obviously nowhere near as good as Jinro; However if he told me zealots countered mutas I wouldn't take his word for it. Everyone is just stating opinions, we have had VERY little time to test this new patch out. The Phx unit also didnt change AT ALL! All that changed was the timings.
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On December 04 2010 17:58 Mr_Kzimir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 17:28 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin? I have exacty the same concern , Bunker build time on defense is too long , on attack it is too short -_-
It says it's just a testing change, I think it's something they've already reverted for the actual patch.
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EPT
