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On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
Seriously: Have you even played the game?
On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
Infestors are the solution to kiting. Infestors + banes = amazing. This hasn't changed.
And what unit would you fg and bane in pvz? mass stalkers? :roll:
On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
Phoenix can't hit buildings and are horrible against a single anti-air static defense, therefore, phoenix play is still risky and hard to do,
Phoenix micro is one of the easiest in the game. A single anti-air static defense does nothing against a small group of phoenix. If there is only one sporecrawler 4-5 phoenixs can snipe the queen without problems.
On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
but now that infestors don't destory 10+ phoenix in an instant. at least protoss can go phoenix against mutas.
The infestor never destroyed 10+ at one (fg radius isn't big enough) and phoenix was already very strong (a small number of them were enough to stop muta harass completely)
On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
Mutas are still great.
No, mutas have become useless in zvp.
On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
They can be produced much faster than phoenix and the only real danger for zerg lies in if they phoenix number gets really large as they can kite,
And by large numbers you mean 4-5. given that with decent phoenix micro you will never lose a phoenix vs mutas the faster production (which isn't so much faster anymore (read the patch notes)) is useless.
On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
but while on even grounds, mutas can hold their own for the most part.
Simply said: No.
I would recommend you actually play the game before making comments. Phoenix was already great vs. any muta player, the fg prevented an all to aggressive useage of the phoenix, but with the fg nerfed the zerg now cannot build mutas in tvz and has to turtle like a champ.
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On December 04 2010 18:05 ImHuko wrote:So late game when I am capped and have absurd amount of minerals/gas and larva, I have to press one at a time to refill my entire army? Well that sucks 
Yes, and the fact that zerg has to produce so much more compared to any other race since z units in general arent as cost efficient you have the perfect setup for carpal tunnel.
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Lots of changes!
Doesn't say anything in the bug fixes about the colossi/marauders spawning in space with a blocked exit. Or did I miss it? xD
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Looks fantastic.. can't wait to try it all myself. 
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On December 04 2010 18:18 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:18 SCC-Faust wrote:
I meet the qualifications and have everything set up but when I log in I get an error that says Starcraft 2 isn't added to my battle.net account, which is totally false. Anyone getting this problem? Same
Nice quote.
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On December 04 2010 18:19 andrewwiggin wrote: Show nested quote +How fast do you think a spore kills a phoenix? The poster you quoted was perfectly accurate in his assessment. You aren't arguing an opinion at this point, please go and test it yourself if you insist on this being the case. 6+ Phoenix can kill several drones and a queen before a single one falls if you have a three-point spore setup.
Then build more than 3 spores if you suspect heavy phoenix play, and have more than 1 queen at your main (like most zerg)? Seriously. Nubs be nubbing.
lolol.
You tell people to build 4+ spores per mineral line if they suspect phoenix play and call them noobs.
Hope you're trolling.
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If i Honestly invested in 3 spores for each base, that's 6 spores, ruining my economy. Dude I've tested this in customs, and ladder. I think you should test it before you argue against me first. And zerg losing 4-5 drones while protoss loses 1 pheonix, who do you think gets the better trade? seriously. -.-
You do realise phoenix can't attack ground.
That's sacrified economy for units that can't attack ground units and opportunity cost time in minerals and build time for units that AREN'T gateway units.
Does that sound like an OPPORTUNITY????
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On December 04 2010 18:19 andrewwiggin wrote: Show nested quote +How fast do you think a spore kills a phoenix? The poster you quoted was perfectly accurate in his assessment. You aren't arguing an opinion at this point, please go and test it yourself if you insist on this being the case. 6+ Phoenix can kill several drones and a queen before a single one falls if you have a three-point spore setup.
Then build more than 3 spores if you suspect heavy phoenix play, and have more than 1 queen at your main (like most zerg)? Seriously. Nubs be nubbing.
dude you're not even getting it. it's not JUST PHEONIX. gate way units are involved to. zealots and pheonix stop theory noobcrafting and test the game. If you haven't tested it, then I refuse to respond to you. As I said it comes from experience. I'm a 2k+ diamond zerg if that helps at all.
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Wow, a lot of changes, not all of which seem to be totally necessary..
Awesome, UI modding. They said it'd be available, and then they said it wouldn't be, and now.. it's here!
Stalemate detection.. is cool, I guess. Makes sense to me.
Geyser worker count is unnecessary IMO, but whatever. I have nothing against it.
Master League is the new Diamond League, Diamond League is now the new Platinum League :/
Extreme graphics!? BETTER THAN ULTRA?
Hallu research time decreased, awesome. Maybe we'll see more hallu play.
Obs cost decrease... eh. That feels way too low for such a potent unit, but whatever. I would have preferred a shortened time usage instead.
Pheonix build time decrease.. wat. Random?
Void Ray bonus damage to massive targets.. kind of random. We'll see how that works out, I guess. Now PvP has a stronger anti-Colossus and PvP has a stronger.. anti-Ultra?
Bunker build time decrease, cool. More bunker rushing, although now it's harder to block ramps.
SCV priority changed? Okay. A lot of people complained about Terrans Thor-rush all-inning with SCVs but personally I've actually never seen that in a serious game. And I watch a lot of games.
INFESTORS NO LONGER AFFECTING AIR UNITS!? HUGE BUFF TO DROP PLAY.
"Harvesting units no longer avoid enemy units." - Not sure what that's supposed to mean. Do they pass through them now?
The change to ramps is a pretty okay buff to Zerg, I guess, although I'm not too convinced they need it.
Vortex no longer affecting missiles - who cares, it's not like Motherships are usable anyway. Might as well reduce HP to 1 and remove all abilities.
I don't get why Medivacs shouldn't heal a Graviton'ed unit. Medivacs can heal air units (ie Mutas), so what's with that?
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On December 04 2010 18:20 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:16 Arckan wrote:On December 04 2010 18:14 andrewwiggin wrote:
Do you have any idea how quickly 6 pheonix's can wipe out a saturated base and take a couple hits and retreat? I've tested it, and I've dealt with it in ladder. Pheonix's can take a hit from spores while they take out 5-6 drones in a few seconds. What the problem is, is that the time it takes to get a good amount of phoenix's is so short that your economy will never be able to kick in. not only that but protoss is also investing in heavy zealots. It's insanely difficult to defend both and this is coming from experience. You can't even veto maps, so you're pretty screwed if you get delta quadrant or scrap station
Where exactly are you placing your spores? =/ And quick reaction time should save you from losing 5-6 drones. 3 maybe - but for a phoenix or two, isnt that worth it? (And where are your queens in all of this?) PS ITS A TEST PATCH. people, seriously. test it out. for more than a few seconds. And let Blizzard do its thing. oh. and stop the goddamn whining. Seriously. How fast do you think a spore kills a phoenix? The poster you quoted was perfectly accurate in his assessment. You aren't arguing an opinion at this point, please go and test it yourself if you insist on this being the case. 6+ Phoenix can kill several drones and a queen before a single one falls if you have a three-point spore setup. If i Honestly invested in 3 spores for each base, that's 6 spores, ruining my economy. Dude I've tested this in customs, and ladder. I think you should test it before you argue against me first. And zerg losing 4-5 drones while protoss loses 1 pheonix, who do you think gets the better trade? seriously. -.-
You don't need 3 spores per base: only 1-2 depending on the situation.
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On December 04 2010 18:16 DNB wrote:Why do I keep getting this error message? "SC2 Public Test server is not available right now. Please check http://www.battle.net/sc2/game/ptr/ for more information." Is it not in Europe?
Read the QA in the OP man. Its NA only.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On December 04 2010 18:02 Bluetea wrote:
Harvesting units no longer avoid enemy units.
What?! Does this mean 2 zerglings in my mineral line = all my probes attacking those zerglings?
Jesus, you wont be able to run workers away from any harassing units now -- Fucking bullshit change.
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On December 04 2010 17:37 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 17:32 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. pheonix is ridic over powered? i guess that explains why inControl Kiwikaki Chief HuK InCa Sangho sSKS didn't make it into the GSL because they didn't use phoenixs right? Obviously you understand how protosses work better than those players. On December 04 2010 17:36 lol12tree wrote:On December 04 2010 17:28 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 15:55 travis wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. i agree about the rest but if phoenix is so powerful then why do i never see it used in pvt (and not even very much in pvz... more lately though.) just serious question Dunno why nobody uses stargate units outside Korea, but phoenix are ridic broken on scrap station already. yes because banshees and mutas aren't. in another words a map that favors air units make 1 race's air units over powered but not another race's air units. very logical. Oh and when was the last time we had a pro tournament level match where we saw phoenix absolutely rape the crap out of the enemy? hm... back in the HDH when Nony first popularized it? Yeah.. phoenix OP my ass. Imo phoenixs were fine the way they were (as a 2k toss), this new buff is interesting but it may be important in the highest levels of play. Considering phoenixes make banshees useless on scrap station.... I said ridiculously POWERFUL not OVERPOWERED. There are plenty of units that are ridiculously powerful but not overpowered already. And your argument about them not making it into the GSL is a complete strawman, it has nothing to do with fucking phoenixes wtf. Fact: phoenix builds are ridiculously strong on scrap station and certain other maps vs terran.
agree completely, excuse my attitude there, sry.
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On December 04 2010 18:23 Fantistic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:20 Avril_Lavigne wrote:On December 04 2010 18:16 Arckan wrote:On December 04 2010 18:14 andrewwiggin wrote:
Do you have any idea how quickly 6 pheonix's can wipe out a saturated base and take a couple hits and retreat? I've tested it, and I've dealt with it in ladder. Pheonix's can take a hit from spores while they take out 5-6 drones in a few seconds. What the problem is, is that the time it takes to get a good amount of phoenix's is so short that your economy will never be able to kick in. not only that but protoss is also investing in heavy zealots. It's insanely difficult to defend both and this is coming from experience. You can't even veto maps, so you're pretty screwed if you get delta quadrant or scrap station
Where exactly are you placing your spores? =/ And quick reaction time should save you from losing 5-6 drones. 3 maybe - but for a phoenix or two, isnt that worth it? (And where are your queens in all of this?) PS ITS A TEST PATCH. people, seriously. test it out. for more than a few seconds. And let Blizzard do its thing. oh. and stop the goddamn whining. Seriously. How fast do you think a spore kills a phoenix? The poster you quoted was perfectly accurate in his assessment. You aren't arguing an opinion at this point, please go and test it yourself if you insist on this being the case. 6+ Phoenix can kill several drones and a queen before a single one falls if you have a three-point spore setup. If i Honestly invested in 3 spores for each base, that's 6 spores, ruining my economy. Dude I've tested this in customs, and ladder. I think you should test it before you argue against me first. And zerg losing 4-5 drones while protoss loses 1 pheonix, who do you think gets the better trade? seriously. -.- You don't need 3 spores per base: only 1-2 depending on the situation.
he suggested 3 spore crawlers, and Unless I was one basing then yeah that's 2 sporecrawlers, but If i wanted to get to midgame, that 4 spore crawlers, 2 for each base. still heavy investments in my opinion
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On December 04 2010 18:21 Rflcrx wrote:Seriously: Have you even played the game? Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
Infestors are the solution to kiting. Infestors + banes = amazing. This hasn't changed.
And what unit would you fg and bane in pvz? mass stalkers? :roll: Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
Phoenix can't hit buildings and are horrible against a single anti-air static defense, therefore, phoenix play is still risky and hard to do,
Phoenix micro is one of the easiest in the game. A single anti-air static defense does nothing against a small group of phoenix. If there is only one sporecrawler 4-5 phoenixs can snipe the queen without problems. Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
but now that infestors don't destory 10+ phoenix in an instant. at least protoss can go phoenix against mutas.
The infestor never destroyed 10+ at one (fg radius isn't big enough) and phoenix was already very strong (a small number of them were enough to stop muta harass completely) No, mutas have become useless in zvp. Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
They can be produced much faster than phoenix and the only real danger for zerg lies in if they phoenix number gets really large as they can kite,
And by large numbers you mean 4-5. given that with decent phoenix micro you will never lose a phoenix vs mutas the faster production (which isn't so much faster anymore (read the patch notes)) is useless. Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:03 darmousseh wrote:
but while on even grounds, mutas can hold their own for the most part. Simply said: No. I would recommend you actually play the game before making comments. Phoenix was already great vs. any muta player, the fg prevented an all to aggressive useage of the phoenix, but with the fg nerfed the zerg now cannot build mutas in tvz and has to turtle like a champ.
I agree with pretty much everything you said apart from Mutas being useless in ZvP. The whole point of making Mutas is to prevent the Protoss from pushing with Collossi since Collossi is very powerful versus Zerg. You don't have to mass only Muta, just make enough to force the Protoss to switch tech and enough to harass and scout with.
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i like most of the changes, but the bunker build time buff and infector neff pissed me off.
the bunker building time should be neff or just let in be or else we will see more ridiculously strong bunker block at the early.
and finally they address the repairing scv target issue(that caused many players' their games in gsl1/2/3 lol).
wonder if the ultras gets a buff again.
p/s:prob only zerg player will think what i said above.
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dude you're not even getting it. it's not JUST PHEONIX. gate way units are involved to. zealots and pheonix stop theory noobcrafting and test the game. If you haven't tested it, then I refuse to respond to you. As I said it comes from experience. I'm a 2k+ diamond zerg if that helps at all.
2k diamong zerg... yeah my penis is bigger.
And what exactly am i testing? Show me a replay of how you lose to mass phoenix and zealot play, if you're all so big about proof.
I really want to see your awesome 2k diamond skills.
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I really hope that chat window goes full screen... I will not be happy with a cluttered box which is overwhelmed by oversized portraits/names. Seriously... why do the names have to be that big and the window that small... I'm sure they messed up again, even if it isn't nearly as big of a deal.
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On December 04 2010 18:26 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:23 Fantistic wrote:On December 04 2010 18:20 Avril_Lavigne wrote:On December 04 2010 18:16 Arckan wrote:On December 04 2010 18:14 andrewwiggin wrote:
Do you have any idea how quickly 6 pheonix's can wipe out a saturated base and take a couple hits and retreat? I've tested it, and I've dealt with it in ladder. Pheonix's can take a hit from spores while they take out 5-6 drones in a few seconds. What the problem is, is that the time it takes to get a good amount of phoenix's is so short that your economy will never be able to kick in. not only that but protoss is also investing in heavy zealots. It's insanely difficult to defend both and this is coming from experience. You can't even veto maps, so you're pretty screwed if you get delta quadrant or scrap station
Where exactly are you placing your spores? =/ And quick reaction time should save you from losing 5-6 drones. 3 maybe - but for a phoenix or two, isnt that worth it? (And where are your queens in all of this?) PS ITS A TEST PATCH. people, seriously. test it out. for more than a few seconds. And let Blizzard do its thing. oh. and stop the goddamn whining. Seriously. How fast do you think a spore kills a phoenix? The poster you quoted was perfectly accurate in his assessment. You aren't arguing an opinion at this point, please go and test it yourself if you insist on this being the case. 6+ Phoenix can kill several drones and a queen before a single one falls if you have a three-point spore setup. If i Honestly invested in 3 spores for each base, that's 6 spores, ruining my economy. Dude I've tested this in customs, and ladder. I think you should test it before you argue against me first. And zerg losing 4-5 drones while protoss loses 1 pheonix, who do you think gets the better trade? seriously. -.- You don't need 3 spores per base: only 1-2 depending on the situation. he suggested 3 spore crawlers, and Unless I was one basing then yeah that's 2 sporecrawlers, but If i wanted to get to midgame, that 4 spore crawlers, 2 for each base. still heavy investments in my opinion
Yeah, I know it was him who suggested 3 per base. 2 per base isn't a heavy investment. It basically equates to the cost of a single Phoenix.
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On December 04 2010 18:27 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +
dude you're not even getting it. it's not JUST PHEONIX. gate way units are involved to. zealots and pheonix stop theory noobcrafting and test the game. If you haven't tested it, then I refuse to respond to you. As I said it comes from experience. I'm a 2k+ diamond zerg if that helps at all.
2k diamong zerg... yeah my penis is bigger. And what exactly am i testing? Show me a replay of how you lose to mass phoenix and zealot play, if you're all so big about proof. I really want to see your awesome 2k diamond skills.
sure he built 4 spores and 4 queens to defend xD
Now the thread degenerates into QQ and wannabe Pros calling others noobs and noobs thinking they are Pros calling the wannabes noobs.
Bronzelevel theorycrafting balance talk.
---> Welcome to the Bnet forums ....
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EPT
