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On December 04 2010 18:34 Rflcrx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:26 Fantistic wrote:
I agree with pretty much everything you said apart from Mutas being useless in ZvP. The whole point of making Mutas is to prevent the Protoss from pushing with Collossi since Collossi is very powerful versus Zerg. You don't have to mass only Muta, just make enough to force the Protoss to switch tech and enough to harass and scout with.
And why would anybody build mutas vs collossi when corruptors are much better? while phoenix deal extra damage vs muta and cannot be hit due to muta range, but corruptors are heavily armored and can fight vs. phoenix and are better vs collossi?
You're not building Mutas to specifically counter Collossi... I meant you build the Mutas so the Protoss has to concentrate economy more on anti-air as opposed to Collosus tech. At which point, if the Protoss has Phoenix tech, don't overcommit to Mutas and switch to Hydras.
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On December 04 2010 18:37 Arckan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:32 andrewwiggin wrote:On December 04 2010 18:31 Arckan wrote:On December 04 2010 18:19 andrewwiggin wrote: How fast do you think a spore kills a phoenix? The poster you quoted was perfectly accurate in his assessment. You aren't arguing an opinion at this point, please go and test it yourself if you insist on this being the case. 6+ Phoenix can kill several drones and a queen before a single one falls if you have a three-point spore setup.
Then build more than 3 spores if you suspect heavy phoenix play, and have more than 1 queen at your main (like most zerg)? Seriously. Nubs be nubbing. Do you see Terran building 15 missile turrets at their mineral line because the Zerg is going Muta? Does Toss build 15 photon cannons when Zerg is going Muta? No, because it is completely ineffective and non-viable. What if I have two bases? Or three? How many spores should I have per base in your opinion? Let's say 5 spore spores per base on two bases: ((75+50) * 5) * 2) = 1250 minerals. Scouting a Stargate that's building Phoenix should force me to spend in excess of 1200 minerals? Is that what you would call a viable counter? Oh, but you wanted to stack Queens as well, let's assume that the bases are connected with creep and we have a total of 5 queens: (150 * 5) = 750 minerals. So we're at 2k minerals just to counter your 4-5 Phoenixes? No, that math isn't all-encompassing, you'd surely have at least 3 Queens even if the P wasn't building air. This doesn't change the fact that Z defending against Phoenixes without FG is an extremely volatile obstacle. I'll repeat myself: Go test it if you're so confident. Okay. Sorry, I didn't know the patch removed hydralisks AND corrupters also. My bad. Keep ignoring the points everyone is making, ignore the fact that no one in this thread has agreed with you. I'm done feeding the troll that thinks Corruptors are a viable counter to Phoenix play.
LOL. You can whine all you want. But if what you're basically saying is that Phoenix have no counters and are now imba...
then protoss are unbeatable!
That IS what you're saying right?
And you call ME the troll. ha.
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Is it me or is Plunder Isle an exact remake of that Warcraft 3 map with the same name? This is really not boding well as far as mapmaking goes. Instead of making some actual good maps, they take the smallest, most cramped war3 map and there we go! New map!
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infestor catching fast moving air units (eg Phoenix, mutas) is a hallmark skill of a zerg pro, and it basically makes ZvZ interesting or else it will just be some mutas war.
toss can chrono bosst stargate if they want, but now the decreased build time will be ridiculously imba when toss chrono lol. kinda same to blizz decided to give a reactor to phoenix build.
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On December 04 2010 18:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:02 Bluetea wrote:
Harvesting units no longer avoid enemy units.
What?! Does this mean 2 zerglings in my mineral line = all my probes attacking those zerglings? Jesus, you wont be able to run workers away from any harassing units now -- Fucking bullshit change.
exactly... this change is so fucking stupid. The patch notes are retarded... and I'm a protoss player. They made the most stupid changes.. and the chat channels. to put it in iNcontroL words... OH MY FUCKING GOD... so fucking embarassing on what they did. Seriously I hope they have something that comes out soon and says december fools cause this is terrible.
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On December 04 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:37 Arckan wrote:On December 04 2010 18:32 andrewwiggin wrote:On December 04 2010 18:31 Arckan wrote:On December 04 2010 18:19 andrewwiggin wrote: How fast do you think a spore kills a phoenix? The poster you quoted was perfectly accurate in his assessment. You aren't arguing an opinion at this point, please go and test it yourself if you insist on this being the case. 6+ Phoenix can kill several drones and a queen before a single one falls if you have a three-point spore setup.
Then build more than 3 spores if you suspect heavy phoenix play, and have more than 1 queen at your main (like most zerg)? Seriously. Nubs be nubbing. Do you see Terran building 15 missile turrets at their mineral line because the Zerg is going Muta? Does Toss build 15 photon cannons when Zerg is going Muta? No, because it is completely ineffective and non-viable. What if I have two bases? Or three? How many spores should I have per base in your opinion? Let's say 5 spore spores per base on two bases: ((75+50) * 5) * 2) = 1250 minerals. Scouting a Stargate that's building Phoenix should force me to spend in excess of 1200 minerals? Is that what you would call a viable counter? Oh, but you wanted to stack Queens as well, let's assume that the bases are connected with creep and we have a total of 5 queens: (150 * 5) = 750 minerals. So we're at 2k minerals just to counter your 4-5 Phoenixes? No, that math isn't all-encompassing, you'd surely have at least 3 Queens even if the P wasn't building air. This doesn't change the fact that Z defending against Phoenixes without FG is an extremely volatile obstacle. I'll repeat myself: Go test it if you're so confident. Okay. Sorry, I didn't know the patch removed hydralisks AND corrupters also. My bad. Keep ignoring the points everyone is making, ignore the fact that no one in this thread has agreed with you. I'm done feeding the troll that thinks Corruptors are a viable counter to Phoenix play. LOL. You can whine all you want. But if what you're basically saying is that Phoenix have no counters and are now imba... then protoss are unbeatable! That IS what you're saying right? And you call ME the troll. ha.
That's not what he's saying, stop using a straw man.
Either read his points and respond to them or don't bother posting.
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I find it really really ironic that zergs are complaining about having to build a few static air defense turrets in their base to defend against air harass when mutalisks can potentially force large numbers of turrets, let alone target buildings.
Edit: Also, you can still run your workers away from harassing units, they just wont ignore enemy units, they will still ignore each other's positions.
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On December 04 2010 18:32 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:31 Arckan wrote:On December 04 2010 18:19 andrewwiggin wrote: How fast do you think a spore kills a phoenix? The poster you quoted was perfectly accurate in his assessment. You aren't arguing an opinion at this point, please go and test it yourself if you insist on this being the case. 6+ Phoenix can kill several drones and a queen before a single one falls if you have a three-point spore setup.
Then build more than 3 spores if you suspect heavy phoenix play, and have more than 1 queen at your main (like most zerg)? Seriously. Nubs be nubbing. Do you see Terran building 15 missile turrets at their mineral line because the Zerg is going Muta? Does Toss build 15 photon cannons when Zerg is going Muta? No, because it is completely ineffective and non-viable. What if I have two bases? Or three? How many spores should I have per base in your opinion? Let's say 5 spore spores per base on two bases: ((75+50) * 5) * 2) = 1250 minerals. Scouting a Stargate that's building Phoenix should force me to spend in excess of 1200 minerals? Is that what you would call a viable counter? Oh, but you wanted to stack Queens as well, let's assume that the bases are connected with creep and we have a total of 5 queens: (150 * 5) = 750 minerals. So we're at 2k minerals just to counter your 4-5 Phoenixes? No, that math isn't all-encompassing, you'd surely have at least 3 Queens even if the P wasn't building air. This doesn't change the fact that Z defending against Phoenixes without FG is an extremely volatile obstacle. I'll repeat myself: Go test it if you're so confident. Okay. Sorry, I didn't know the patch removed hydralisks AND corrupters also. My bad.
Nope, all I said was for you to test it before you theorycrafting saying that this change has done nothing and isn't significant. And since your dick is so big, you must be 3k but haven't even actually played the public test? Lol and Hydras and corrupters aren't cost efficient when you've invested so much into "Static D" but what do I know? I've only played the public testing!
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I seriously can't take that "no more holding down a key to macro" change. What an annoyance! Why would they force mindless hotkey spamming? You could already do that before if you wanted to, but now you have to. It is unacceptable to take away a convenience feature from players when they're used to it. It makes me rage when I have to fight against the UI more than against my opponent.
This change makes zerg annoyingly inconvenient to play, and that takes away the fun for me. I might switch to another race just because of this change, although I love zerg.
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On December 04 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote:
Explain how a zerg player now can kill phoenix. If you can't please be silent.
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On December 04 2010 18:40 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote:On December 04 2010 18:37 Arckan wrote:On December 04 2010 18:32 andrewwiggin wrote:On December 04 2010 18:31 Arckan wrote:On December 04 2010 18:19 andrewwiggin wrote: How fast do you think a spore kills a phoenix? The poster you quoted was perfectly accurate in his assessment. You aren't arguing an opinion at this point, please go and test it yourself if you insist on this being the case. 6+ Phoenix can kill several drones and a queen before a single one falls if you have a three-point spore setup.
Then build more than 3 spores if you suspect heavy phoenix play, and have more than 1 queen at your main (like most zerg)? Seriously. Nubs be nubbing. Do you see Terran building 15 missile turrets at their mineral line because the Zerg is going Muta? Does Toss build 15 photon cannons when Zerg is going Muta? No, because it is completely ineffective and non-viable. What if I have two bases? Or three? How many spores should I have per base in your opinion? Let's say 5 spore spores per base on two bases: ((75+50) * 5) * 2) = 1250 minerals. Scouting a Stargate that's building Phoenix should force me to spend in excess of 1200 minerals? Is that what you would call a viable counter? Oh, but you wanted to stack Queens as well, let's assume that the bases are connected with creep and we have a total of 5 queens: (150 * 5) = 750 minerals. So we're at 2k minerals just to counter your 4-5 Phoenixes? No, that math isn't all-encompassing, you'd surely have at least 3 Queens even if the P wasn't building air. This doesn't change the fact that Z defending against Phoenixes without FG is an extremely volatile obstacle. I'll repeat myself: Go test it if you're so confident. Okay. Sorry, I didn't know the patch removed hydralisks AND corrupters also. My bad. Keep ignoring the points everyone is making, ignore the fact that no one in this thread has agreed with you. I'm done feeding the troll that thinks Corruptors are a viable counter to Phoenix play. LOL. You can whine all you want. But if what you're basically saying is that Phoenix have no counters and are now imba... then protoss are unbeatable! That IS what you're saying right? And you call ME the troll. ha. That's not what he's saying, stop using a straw man. Either read his points and respond to them or don't bother posting.
Please list the counters that he pointed out to phoenix. Read his points, or dont bother posting.
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I guess the main problem in PvZ is that zerg cant compete in air until lairtech + structure, and in that time protoss have ample oppertunity to mass a bigger force or harrass.
My biggest issue is the inability to scout. We all know that scouting is kind useful right? and zerg can only scout from the air. If a toss walls off his front with a zealot, and then pushes out some quick phoenix - there is no way a zerg can have ANY idea what is going down in that base. It is kind of important to scout the number of gates, and spot any tech strcutres - since zerg have to react to what the toss is producting.
TL;DR - The death of overlord scouting is probably the real issue with PvZ post patch.
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On December 04 2010 18:41 Scorch wrote:
I seriously can't take that "no more holding down a key to macro" change. What an annoyance! Why would they force mindless hotkey spamming? You could already do that before if you wanted to, but now you have to. It is unacceptable to take away a convenience feature from players when they're used to it. It makes me rage when I have to fight against the UI more than against my opponent.
This change makes zerg annoyingly inconvenient to play, and that takes away the fun for me. I might switch to another race just because of this change, although I love zerg.
Yeah, I love zerg but ZvZ will be a reminiscent of nightmares I had about BW ZvZ, and phoenixes will be so annoying that it's going to lose some fun. Toss has always been my secondary. If the changes come out as listed they'll definitely be my primary!
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i see a problem here
- zerg cant handle correctly with mass raven without any fungal grow
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On December 04 2010 18:18 Ghazwan wrote:It's the same thing every patch  One race gets nerfed. That race's players mass whine on forums, while the other two races' players tell them to give it some time (possibly with a happy grin on their face).
The funny thing is this: they're right.
Everyone who says to give it time has been right. When Blizzard announced the whole Supply Depot before Barracks, Terrans were up in arms. Terrans acted like Terran gameplay was dead.
It's fine. It didn't ruin their ability to apply early-game pressure. It didn't stop them from entering the mid-game or going Banshees or anything else. Terran play is fine, borderline over-powered in the early-game.
The VR nerf was supposed to make them useless, but they still had value and were still used in 1.1.2. People have said similar hyperbolic garbage about other changes, and in virtually every case, they've been wrong. Balance has gotten better in each patch.
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Well there goes zergs ONLY Air AOE spell. Brb going muta roach every ZvZ. Brb unstoppable viking flocks killing all my overlords and air units.
If you can't fungal air units anymore, you might aswell say that scv's shouldnt be able to repair air units. Both have the same bs factor to it.
Although I think its great for protoss buffs, they deserve some slack too, I think this will upset ZvP more. The only way to kill a flock of voidrays if they ever got to that point was getting lucky with fungal growth since 1 on 1 they incinerate any zerg unit supply wise. + Show Spoiler +I would even think hydra's need a hive level -1 supply upgrade just to make sure we can kill that air support. But this doesn't belong here.
I'm greatly satisfied with the custom hotkeys and chat channels though. Now I can finally start putting my F2-5 keys to good use  .
Controversial patch, but we'll live.
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On December 04 2010 18:41 Silphir wrote:
I find it really really ironic that zergs are complaining about having to build a few static air defense turrets in their base to defend against air harass when mutalisks can potentially force large numbers of turrets, let alone target buildings.
Well most people seemt o be ignoring the fact that zergs have to kill their own workers to protect their workers in this case and that each new drone you have to remake to replace them is a larva that you can't spend on any combat units.
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Okay fine.
Im tired now of zerg whining about how protoss are now unbeatable.
Let's see how this settles in a month, then talk.
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On December 04 2010 18:30 Mojeca wrote:
Heres a question. What priority to SCVs get when they are repairing each other?!?!?
Mind = blown
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EPT
