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On December 04 2010 18:48 Fantistic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:46 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:44 zeru wrote:On December 04 2010 18:41 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote:
Explain how a zerg player now can kill phoenix. If you can't please be silent. You attack them with your units, such as hydras. You can also make sounds irl while your hydras shoot them down. Such as saying "pew pew pew" and watch the phoenix explode once they reach 0 hp from the damage you do to them. This might work in bronce league, however, normaly players don't a move the phoenix, a very fast unit, into a bunch of hydras, a very slow unit. You seem way too biased. As a Zerg player, I don't have problems versus Phoenixes. 1-2 spores per base, 3-4 Queens with transfusion micro and Hydra tech isn't difficult.
The thing is, Phoenix force hydra's. Hydra's are slow and easily countered by the collosus stalker ball. You need mapcontroll as zerg to get more bases than the protoss, or else you will inevitably come in this 2base v 2base situation which greatly favours protoss.
I'm just saying that it isn't about the unit itself, its about the follow up because of what it forces.
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On December 04 2010 16:56 Mojeca wrote:
The ability to immobilize air units is EXTREMELY powerful. The whole reason why air units are good is their mobility. To have a ~T2 unit that can immobilize air units I doubt was ever the intent of the infestor. Personally I think it should still deal damage, but removing its effect from air entirely is an interesting change. I feel like corruptors could use a speed buff to compensate, but I think that this change is positive overall.
Yup, infestors were just too strong. Lategame TvsZ is already broken because it's practically a Z win past mid game. Nerfing infestors will help lategame TvsZ a little but not much. I think Blizzard will still have to nerf late game Z in some way because Z should still dominate in TvsZ late game even with the fungal nerf.
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On December 04 2010 18:43 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:18 Ghazwan wrote:It's the same thing every patch  One race gets nerfed. That race's players mass whine on forums, while the other two races' players tell them to give it some time (possibly with a happy grin on their face). The funny thing is this: they're right. Everyone who says to give it time has been right. When Blizzard announced the whole Supply Depot before Barracks, Terrans were up in arms. Terrans acted like Terran gameplay was dead. It's fine. It didn't ruin their ability to apply early-game pressure. It didn't stop them from entering the mid-game or going Banshees or anything else. Terran play is fine, borderline over-powered in the early-game. The VR nerf was supposed to make them useless, but they still had value and were still used in 1.1.2. People have said similar hyperbolic garbage about other changes, and in virtually every case, they've been wrong. Balance has gotten better in each patch.
No terrans were in arms because the change would hurt them and that "Terran gameplay was dead". Terrans (and randoms and anyone objective) were in arms because it was (and is) a STUPID change. It still is.
VR nerf was never a nerf. It was a rebalance and again, anyone objective could see that.
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On December 04 2010 18:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:02 Bluetea wrote:
Harvesting units no longer avoid enemy units.
What?! Does this mean 2 zerglings in my mineral line = all my probes attacking those zerglings? Jesus, you wont be able to run workers away from any harassing units now -- Fucking bullshit change.
All it means is that idle workers will not run away from units of their own accord. It doesn't mean workers will automatically attack a unit if they're busy doing something. Just like a Marine that's busy shooting at a Zealot won't attack the Stalker that's shooting him until the Zealot is dead.
I'm shocked and saddened by this hyperbole from Jinro. I expected better from you, sir.
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On December 04 2010 18:51 zeru wrote:Nothing can be overpowered in a mirror match, what are you talking about? Also, this: Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:51 andrewwiggin wrote:
So...
Zerg have to deal with a mass of fast flying air units that are great at harassing masses of probes/drones/scvs.
.... wait a minute...
Nothing can be OP in a mirror match?
I suppose not from a "I HAD NO CHANCE AGAINST IT@!!!", but not from a "Every single game is like X!".
Remember when EVERY TvT was tank/viking? Tank/viking was OP in tvt. Remember when EVERY ZvZ was mass Roach? Roaches were OP in ZvZ.
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On December 04 2010 18:47 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:46 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:44 zeru wrote:On December 04 2010 18:41 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote:
Explain how a zerg player now can kill phoenix. If you can't please be silent. You attack them with your units, such as hydras. You can also make sounds irl while your hydras shoot them down. Such as saying "pew pew pew" and watch the phoenix explode once they reach 0 hp from the damage you do to them. This might work in bronce league, however, normaly players don't a move the phoenix, a very fast unit, into a bunch of hydras, a very slow unit. Spread creep and they are fast and make nydus to get fast long distance movement.
This might work in bronce league, however even with creep or a nydus the phoenix are still much faster.
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On December 04 2010 18:54 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 18:02 Bluetea wrote:
Harvesting units no longer avoid enemy units.
What?! Does this mean 2 zerglings in my mineral line = all my probes attacking those zerglings? Jesus, you wont be able to run workers away from any harassing units now -- Fucking bullshit change. All it means is that idle workers will not run away from units of their own accord. It doesn't mean workers will automatically attack a unit if they're busy doing something. Just like a Marine that's busy shooting at a Zealot won't attack the Stalker that's shooting him until the Zealot is dead. I'm shocked and saddened by this hyperbole from Jinro. I expected better from you, sir.
its called sarcasm.
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Gameplay evolves.
Patches are always adapted to, in especially creative ways that no one expects.
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On December 04 2010 18:50 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
I am a 1800 diamond zerg in the 1.1.3 but a bronze player on 1.2, maybe its my attitude, or the nerfs, but I haven't been able to win once...
or maybe its because you're always gonna be matched up against dedicated, regular players - mostly diamonds - because theyre generally the only people who care enough about the state of the game to test out new patches at length on a wholly separate account
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On December 04 2010 18:52 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:43 NicolBolas wrote:On December 04 2010 18:18 Ghazwan wrote:It's the same thing every patch One race gets nerfed. That race's players mass whine on forums, while the other two races' players tell them to give it some time (possibly with a happy grin on their face). The funny thing is this: they're right. Everyone who says to give it time has been right. When Blizzard announced the whole Supply Depot before Barracks, Terrans were up in arms. Terrans acted like Terran gameplay was dead. It's fine. It didn't ruin their ability to apply early-game pressure. It didn't stop them from entering the mid-game or going Banshees or anything else. Terran play is fine, borderline over-powered in the early-game. The VR nerf was supposed to make them useless, but they still had value and were still used in 1.1.2. People have said similar hyperbolic garbage about other changes, and in virtually every case, they've been wrong. Balance has gotten better in each patch. No terrans were in arms because the change would hurt them and that "Terran gameplay was dead". Terrans (and randoms and anyone objective) were in arms because it was (and is) a STUPID change. It still is. VR nerf was never a nerf. It was a rebalance and again, anyone objective could see that.
The main reason it was a stupid change is because it was intended to slow down how fast a Terran player could get out reapers, but it consequently denied a lot of non-reaper rush strategies. That being said, Terrans have still figured out how to be aggressive early-game, although the threat of earlier rax was always nice.
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talk about a return of sair openings lol.
This thread is a total shitstorm. Some people are just spitting shit for the sake of spitting shit.
Phoenix have become a lot more viable. So how should zerg respond? Not sure about 2 base hydra play... Would P have sufficient Phoenix to snipe the first Hydras coming out? If so then thats a bad plan.
If phoenix play really becomes popular Z can always go for quick roach pushes. This will really punish the P for going a fast tech-path. If the P gets delayed Phoenix to fend off roach rushes Z will have enough time to get a reasonable ammount of Hydras.
Not sure about corruptors, i feel that if P tech switches or just hallucinates/feigns Phoenix and goes for a heavy gate-way army Z will have some useless Corruptors... Not sure, enlighten me 
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On December 04 2010 18:47 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:46 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:44 zeru wrote:On December 04 2010 18:41 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote:
Explain how a zerg player now can kill phoenix. If you can't please be silent. You attack them with your units, such as hydras. You can also make sounds irl while your hydras shoot them down. Such as saying "pew pew pew" and watch the phoenix explode once they reach 0 hp from the damage you do to them. This might work in bronce league, however, normaly players don't a move the phoenix, a very fast unit, into a bunch of hydras, a very slow unit. Spread creep and they are fast and make nydus to get fast long distance movement. To be fair, it's gonna be really hard to Nydus anywhere if you can't have any stray overlord on the map, and to keep the creep out with even cheaper observers.
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On December 04 2010 18:52 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:48 Fantistic wrote:On December 04 2010 18:46 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:44 zeru wrote:On December 04 2010 18:41 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote:
Explain how a zerg player now can kill phoenix. If you can't please be silent. You attack them with your units, such as hydras. You can also make sounds irl while your hydras shoot them down. Such as saying "pew pew pew" and watch the phoenix explode once they reach 0 hp from the damage you do to them. This might work in bronce league, however, normaly players don't a move the phoenix, a very fast unit, into a bunch of hydras, a very slow unit. You seem way too biased. As a Zerg player, I don't have problems versus Phoenixes. 1-2 spores per base, 3-4 Queens with transfusion micro and Hydra tech isn't difficult. The thing is, Phoenix force hydra's. Hydra's are slow and easily countered by the collosus stalker ball. You need mapcontroll as zerg to get more bases than the protoss, or else you will inevitably come in this 2base v 2base situation which greatly favours protoss. I'm just saying that it isn't about the unit itself, its about the follow up because of what it forces.
Then don't overcommit to Hydra. You'll still have Zerglings/Roaches to help support a third and you'll have map control anyway since the Protoss won't be able to push with economy-heavy Phoenixes.
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On December 04 2010 18:50 Gigaudas wrote:
I hate that change so much. Medivacs and Phoenixes will be so obnoxious.
Like how mutas already dominate every TvsZ matchup? Mutas singlehandedly keep T in their base without the ability to leave because Mutas are so versatile. Fungal nerf will even up TvsZ a bit but Z will continue to dominate T past mid game even after this nerf.
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On December 04 2010 18:52 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:43 NicolBolas wrote:On December 04 2010 18:18 Ghazwan wrote:It's the same thing every patch One race gets nerfed. That race's players mass whine on forums, while the other two races' players tell them to give it some time (possibly with a happy grin on their face). The funny thing is this: they're right. Everyone who says to give it time has been right. When Blizzard announced the whole Supply Depot before Barracks, Terrans were up in arms. Terrans acted like Terran gameplay was dead. It's fine. It didn't ruin their ability to apply early-game pressure. It didn't stop them from entering the mid-game or going Banshees or anything else. Terran play is fine, borderline over-powered in the early-game. The VR nerf was supposed to make them useless, but they still had value and were still used in 1.1.2. People have said similar hyperbolic garbage about other changes, and in virtually every case, they've been wrong. Balance has gotten better in each patch. No terrans were in arms because the change would hurt them and that "Terran gameplay was dead". Terrans (and randoms and anyone objective) were in arms because it was (and is) a STUPID change. It still is. VR nerf was never a nerf. It was a rebalance and again, anyone objective could see that.
No change is stupid if it makes the game better overall. That's the ultimate goal.
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On December 04 2010 18:52 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:48 Fantistic wrote:On December 04 2010 18:46 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:44 zeru wrote:On December 04 2010 18:41 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote:
Explain how a zerg player now can kill phoenix. If you can't please be silent. You attack them with your units, such as hydras. You can also make sounds irl while your hydras shoot them down. Such as saying "pew pew pew" and watch the phoenix explode once they reach 0 hp from the damage you do to them. This might work in bronce league, however, normaly players don't a move the phoenix, a very fast unit, into a bunch of hydras, a very slow unit. You seem way too biased. As a Zerg player, I don't have problems versus Phoenixes. 1-2 spores per base, 3-4 Queens with transfusion micro and Hydra tech isn't difficult. The thing is, Phoenix force hydra's. Hydra's are slow and easily countered by the collosus stalker ball. You need mapcontroll as zerg to get more bases than the protoss, or else you will inevitably come in this 2base v 2base situation which greatly favours protoss. I'm just saying that it isn't about the unit itself, its about the follow up because of what it forces.
Whats so different about it now as opposed to with this change? Are zerg players still going mutas if they got a good fungal on a group of Phoenix? No. You can still force hydra this change doesn't change that fact. The reason that you know this forces hydra is because you can be forced into hydras RIGHT NOW. Voids can force hydra so I don't see where you have a problem with this blinks stalkers can force hydra.
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On December 04 2010 18:57 ghostnuke1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:50 Gigaudas wrote:
I hate that change so much. Medivacs and Phoenixes will be so obnoxious.
Like how mutas already dominate every TvsZ matchup? Mutas singlehandedly keep T in their base without the ability to leave because Mutas are so versatile. Fungal nerf will even up TvsZ a bit but Z will continue to dominate T past mid game even after this nerf.
Mutas keep P in their base too lol, don't forget us.
But it IS pretty ironic, zerg having to deal with mass air units that can harass probes and economy.
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On December 04 2010 18:55 Rflcrx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:47 zeru wrote:On December 04 2010 18:46 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:44 zeru wrote:On December 04 2010 18:41 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote:
Explain how a zerg player now can kill phoenix. If you can't please be silent. You attack them with your units, such as hydras. You can also make sounds irl while your hydras shoot them down. Such as saying "pew pew pew" and watch the phoenix explode once they reach 0 hp from the damage you do to them. This might work in bronce league, however, normaly players don't a move the phoenix, a very fast unit, into a bunch of hydras, a very slow unit. Spread creep and they are fast and make nydus to get fast long distance movement. This might work in bronce league, however even with creep or a nydus the phoenix are still much faster.
You're not expected to KILL the Phoenixes. Just by deflecting their harassments, they've wasted resources since they can't snipe anything. Remember, you're only defending the harassment; it's not like you'll get behind if you don't kill them.
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On December 04 2010 19:00 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:57 ghostnuke1234 wrote:On December 04 2010 18:50 Gigaudas wrote:
I hate that change so much. Medivacs and Phoenixes will be so obnoxious.
Like how mutas already dominate every TvsZ matchup? Mutas singlehandedly keep T in their base without the ability to leave because Mutas are so versatile. Fungal nerf will even up TvsZ a bit but Z will continue to dominate T past mid game even after this nerf. Mutas keep P in their base too lol, don't forget us. But it IS pretty ironic, zerg having to deal with mass air units that can harass probes and economy.
Exactly! It's like all Z players wanted a freebie unit to keep T and P in their base but can't deal with mass air units from the other races, LOL.
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On December 04 2010 18:54 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 04 2010 18:02 Bluetea wrote:
Harvesting units no longer avoid enemy units.
What?! Does this mean 2 zerglings in my mineral line = all my probes attacking those zerglings? Jesus, you wont be able to run workers away from any harassing units now -- Fucking bullshit change. All it means is that idle workers will not run away from units of their own accord. It doesn't mean workers will automatically attack a unit if they're busy doing something. Just like a Marine that's busy shooting at a Zealot won't attack the Stalker that's shooting him until the Zealot is dead. I'm shocked and saddened by this hyperbole from Jinro. I expected better from you, sir.
Am i the onlyone who thinks this means the end of workers going through enemy units when clicking on a mineral patch ?
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EPT
