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On December 04 2010 18:59 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:52 Chaosvuistje wrote:On December 04 2010 18:48 Fantistic wrote:On December 04 2010 18:46 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:44 zeru wrote:On December 04 2010 18:41 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote:
Explain how a zerg player now can kill phoenix. If you can't please be silent. You attack them with your units, such as hydras. You can also make sounds irl while your hydras shoot them down. Such as saying "pew pew pew" and watch the phoenix explode once they reach 0 hp from the damage you do to them. This might work in bronce league, however, normaly players don't a move the phoenix, a very fast unit, into a bunch of hydras, a very slow unit. You seem way too biased. As a Zerg player, I don't have problems versus Phoenixes. 1-2 spores per base, 3-4 Queens with transfusion micro and Hydra tech isn't difficult. The thing is, Phoenix force hydra's. Hydra's are slow and easily countered by the collosus stalker ball. You need mapcontroll as zerg to get more bases than the protoss, or else you will inevitably come in this 2base v 2base situation which greatly favours protoss. I'm just saying that it isn't about the unit itself, its about the follow up because of what it forces. Whats so different about it now as opposed to with this change? Are zerg players still going mutas if they got a good fungal on a group of Phoenix? No. You can still force hydra this change doesn't change that fact. The reason that you know this forces hydra is because you can be forced into hydras RIGHT NOW. Voids can force hydra so I don't see where you have a problem with this blinks stalkers can force hydra.
What's different now is that sucha harrass so early in the game just kills zerg economy before it can even kick in, then you get steam rolled by a 2 base toss to your barely 3 base because your economy never helped at all
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I just want the key press macro back... 
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On December 04 2010 19:01 Fantistic wrote:
You're not expected to KILL the Phoenixes.
Actually you are. If you are unable to kill harassing units it will make even a small group of harass units highly effective. Imagine you would never lose a muta while you harass. Yeah, not so great..
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On December 04 2010 18:57 ghostnuke1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:50 Gigaudas wrote:
I hate that change so much. Medivacs and Phoenixes will be so obnoxious.
Like how mutas already dominate every TvsZ matchup? Mutas singlehandedly keep T in their base without the ability to leave because Mutas are so versatile. Fungal nerf will even up TvsZ a bit but Z will continue to dominate T past mid game even after this nerf.
Stop whining and go watch some Jinro's GSL or Brat_OK's games.
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sorry ignore this post i wish there was delete button :/
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Void Ray change = omgwtfbbq, very nice. The unit is no longer a failed attempt at a cutesie unit, it has a clear purpose as a combat unit and is now totally independant of the ludicrously expensive Beacon until +2 ups become an absolute must. This is so awesome for so many reasons.
Faster Phoenix build, eh, ok... wasnt this change meant for the Carrier?
Faster Bunker, why...
No FG on air units = speechless. This seems so dumb that I cannot even wrap my mind around it... for so many reasons. Lets nerf the 1 real caster for Zerg, they need to spend all their time pressing buttons to macro instead of using units... or smth... I dont understand...
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Instead of completely removing Flux Vanes upgrade, they should consider making it affect Carriers instead of void rays  (although it shouldnt be too fast, more like 2.4 speed maybe?)
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Mass Void Rays with some zeal and stalk is gonna be the most imba late game army we'll see in PvZ. hydras melt to charged voids, corruptors when over comited, a tech change will immediately kill the zerg army. i dont know y blizzard is making such stupid patches.
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On December 04 2010 19:03 Rflcrx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 19:01 Fantistic wrote:
You're not expected to KILL the Phoenixes. Actually you are. If you are unable to kill harassing units it will make even a small group of harass units highly effective. Imagine you would never lose a muta while you harass. Yeah, not so great..
Ok, I'll just repeat what I said before.
If the enemy isn't successfully harassing your economy with Phoenixes, it's not so bad if you're not killing his Phoenixes because he's not doing any damage anyway. That's what high level play is. A high level harasser isn't going to lose his harassment units because he has good control so all the defender can do is try to push the harassment away which doesn't necessarily mean having to kill units.
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Request:
Ultra vs Extreme graphics changes screenshots.
Anyone awesome up for the task?=)
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On December 04 2010 19:02 TheBlueMeaner wrote:I just want the key press macro back...
I second this notion. What a ridiculous change
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Very nice to see Toss getting a buff. That was necessary in my opinion.
Only change's I don't like are removed press button function for building units and no effect of fungal on air units. The second point is a huge blunder and will make Zerg struggle hard against air harasses in the late game (Medivac drops, Massray, Massphoenix, Banshee) and additionally it breaks the ZvZ metagame. That's sad, because ZvZ evolved so nicely in the last time with Muta/Bane/Ling or Hydra/Roach/Infestor being the options. Without antiair function of fungal the Hydra/Roach/Infestor combo won't be working anymore.
As stated by many previous posters, Blizzard underestimates the impact on Zerg economy, when building spores is a must.
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Wait so..
I can't hold down a key to build units with grouped larva..
and now Zerg has no smart response to Void Ray/Phoenix opener?
Currently the best answer is to get an infestor and fungal the phoenix, since hydra leads to coll transition and corrupter leads to stalker transition.
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On December 04 2010 19:03 Rflcrx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 19:01 Fantistic wrote:
You're not expected to KILL the Phoenixes. Actually you are. If you are unable to kill harassing units it will make even a small group of harass units highly effective. Imagine you would never lose a muta while you harass. Yeah, not so great..
Except muta can attack ground and phoenix needs 50 energy and an additional phoenix to even begin harassing? Mass muta can just fly in and possibly wipe out all your workers whereas phoenix you need to manually pick up the worker and kill them 1 by 1.
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so now muta´s will be good in zvz, YAY!!!
2 stargate phoenix will be very strong now meaning every zerg has to make hydras in zvp
the pylon block at the bottom of ramp removed is AWESOME !!!!
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On December 04 2010 19:02 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:59 oZii wrote:On December 04 2010 18:52 Chaosvuistje wrote:On December 04 2010 18:48 Fantistic wrote:On December 04 2010 18:46 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:44 zeru wrote:On December 04 2010 18:41 Rflcrx wrote:On December 04 2010 18:38 andrewwiggin wrote:
Explain how a zerg player now can kill phoenix. If you can't please be silent. You attack them with your units, such as hydras. You can also make sounds irl while your hydras shoot them down. Such as saying "pew pew pew" and watch the phoenix explode once they reach 0 hp from the damage you do to them. This might work in bronce league, however, normaly players don't a move the phoenix, a very fast unit, into a bunch of hydras, a very slow unit. You seem way too biased. As a Zerg player, I don't have problems versus Phoenixes. 1-2 spores per base, 3-4 Queens with transfusion micro and Hydra tech isn't difficult. The thing is, Phoenix force hydra's. Hydra's are slow and easily countered by the collosus stalker ball. You need mapcontroll as zerg to get more bases than the protoss, or else you will inevitably come in this 2base v 2base situation which greatly favours protoss. I'm just saying that it isn't about the unit itself, its about the follow up because of what it forces. Whats so different about it now as opposed to with this change? Are zerg players still going mutas if they got a good fungal on a group of Phoenix? No. You can still force hydra this change doesn't change that fact. The reason that you know this forces hydra is because you can be forced into hydras RIGHT NOW. Voids can force hydra so I don't see where you have a problem with this blinks stalkers can force hydra. What's different now is that sucha harrass so early in the game just kills zerg economy before it can even kick in, then you get steam rolled by a 2 base toss to your barely 3 base because your economy never helped at all
Ok I'm sorry but I feel that if your on the US server you and a buddy can go practice this in the PTR right now. So I guess your saying you have tested this already on the PTR and know for a fact that your econ is crushed. Early evo chamber spores and queens problem solved. The average phoenix harass comes with 4 phoenix thats just an extra 40 seconds. Sac Ovie a little earlier see stargate pump a extra queen. Its not like the option for defending phoenix isnt there you just have to get it a little earlier. A phoenix heavy army means less gateway units the same effect it has on all races. More air=less ground. If this change means more protoss spend more money on phoenix then the zerg just has to spend a little bit more money to defend.
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-- Infestor
Fungal Growth no longer affects air units.
great, nerf Infestor more as it wasn't used less enough
rest of the stuff looks freaking awesome though, no Protoss nerf!(except pylon block hihi)
but... seriously no FG vs air? WHY?
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the phoenix change just buffed the hell out of my PvT opener, which is already awesome on live servers.
Zergs should stop worrying about this change though, it wont change much in the MU except at the extreme lower levels. Phoenix were already becoming common in the mid-game and I dont think this change will make people rush them, it will just help toss keep up a little bit with muta production on 1 stargate. YOu can do a phoenix opener now that will feel almost the exact same. Rushing hydra is what the toss wants you to do. Go spire tech instead for corruptor (see Choya v. July)
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I already felt that pheonix opening vs zerg was way too strong. Guess I just have to l2p. Spore crawlers vs. protoss are unfortunately a neccessity now. I can't think of any other way to defend it.
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On December 04 2010 19:09 Fantistic wrote:
it's not so bad if you're not killing his Phoenixes because he's not doing any damage anyway.
but it is. you have no mapcontrol and no scouting. oh and just a small number of overlord snipes (which aren't hard at all, simple runbys will do) neglect the investment. like I said: you are blind and forced to camp, which is pretty bad considering you are a zerg player (who need to have more bases/need to know what he enemy is building).
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EPT
