EPTcause you just cant kill medivecs anymore without fungal..... i hate this.
all other changes are great.
Patch 1.2.0 on PTR - Page 79
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Gr4ndmasterSexy
Germany27 Posts
cause you just cant kill medivecs anymore without fungal..... i hate this. all other changes are great. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On December 04 2010 19:12 SovSov wrote:and now Zerg has no smart response to Void Ray/Phoenix opener? I think phoenix/VR will be deadly now, cause hydras will be just lifted and raped by phoenix, and the one who not lifted die to VR. | ||
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Tjuhl
Germany17 Posts
UI CHANGES / NEW FEATURES The chat channels look clean and nice and intuitive. The hotkey menu is a pretty cool approach to keybinding - no "boring text / excel list". Stalemate detection - not sure about its effect on the game, might cause "hide & seek" play. NEW CONTENT The new map looks interesting, looking forward to trying it out. BALANCING CHANGES A. PROTOSS "2 pylons can no longer block ramps." - good, was pretty painful for especially Zerg early game. Hallucination research - even earlier free PvZ scouting... Observer cost - even more resources for P units, which Zerg is already struggling with midgame. Phoenix build time - esp. due to the fungal growth change, Zerg will struggle with Phoenix harass. Void Ray - now "hard-counters" Ultralisks, forcing Z to go Spire no matter what. B. ZERG Fungal Growth - painful for Zerg, as basically ALL air units will be very hard to kill by ground forces. Creep will now spread evenly in all directions. - How will this affect creep spread? C. GENERAL Harvesting units no longer avoid enemy units. - Even harder scouting for Zerg. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
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Grend
1600 Posts
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banned_again2
24 Posts
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dolpiff
France300 Posts
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orotoss
United States298 Posts
On December 04 2010 15:23 NibbloniaN wrote: Map makers just gave up trying to be creative and copied a map they had in wc3 ![[image loading]](http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2248/plunderisle.jpg) Really blizz? Just let ICCUP make some maps for you. They love that shit. | ||
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optical630
United Kingdom768 Posts
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Woony
Germany6657 Posts
On December 04 2010 19:24 orotoss wrote: Really blizz? Just let ICCUP make some maps for you. They love that shit. ICCUP for some reason refuses to make maps that would fit in SC2. And most people freak out about the changes even if it's PTR. In WoW shit get's changed on PTR all the time. That's why it's the patch TEST realm. I think people need to get used to it. | ||
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DennyR
Germany379 Posts
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Duka08
3391 Posts
Oh wow I missed this post... good catch =/ or maybe... not so good. | ||
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Dauntless
Norway548 Posts
Btw, I see nothing wrong in recycling old maps. Is it even on the ladder? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12025 Posts
Bunker build time Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin? Jinro, just thought I'd say this is probably just to test repair priority. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
 Well, at least I can safely theory-craft now and nobody will be able to "ffs test it first": I'm a protoss-player and from my perspective nearly all of the changes are completely ridiculous BS: - phoenix buildtime is fine: phoenixes are a strong unit that are used in a pretty big variety of strats. - fungal growth is fine: phoenix harass vs zerg is extremely strong when done properly, phoenixes own mutas. Their only weakness while doing hit/run is the threat of getting caught by fungal. This is a highly necessary to keep toss on its toes. - bunker buildtime DECREASED, you gotta be fucking kidding me: bunker-cheese is already disgusting in PvT, now blizz wants MORE offensive bunker-play? - no fix to gateway-units vs MMM whatsoever; awsome, this would've been the only fix really needed imo. - observer-cost doesn't change anything, if I lose to banshees than NOT because I can't AFFORD observers, but because I don't HAVE one in time. Making them build faster would've been a useful change, cost doesn't really matter. EDIT: new map plunder isle must be a joke, this map was HORRIBLE in warcraft 3, basicly the steppes of war on warcraft 3. | ||
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Kazzoo
France368 Posts
Do you see Terran building 15 missile turrets at their mineral line because the Zerg is going Muta? Does Toss build 15 photon cannons when Zerg is going Muta? No, because it is completely ineffective and non-viable. What if I have two bases? Or three? How many spores should I have per base in your opinion? Let's say 5 spore spores per base on two bases: ((75+50) * 5) * 2) = 1250 minerals. Scouting a Stargate that's building Phoenix should force me to spend in excess of 1200 minerals? Is that what you would call a viable counter? Oh, but you wanted to stack Queens as well, let's assume that the bases are connected with creep and we have a total of 5 queens: (150 * 5) = 750 minerals. So we're at 2k minerals just to counter your 4-5 Phoenixes? No, that math isn't all-encompassing, you'd surely have at least 3 Queens even if the P wasn't building air. This doesn't change the fact that Z defending against Phoenixes without FG is an extremely volatile obstacle. I'll repeat myself: Go test it if you're so confident. 2 gate = (150 + 150) * 2 = 600 4 phoenixes = (150 + 100) * 4 = 1000 So 2 gate 4 phoenix = 1600 2 spores per base let's say = (75 + 50) * 4 = 500 Having three queens is good anyways and you can run your queen between bases, so assuming you're not a newbie and you watch your minimap, Even if you scout two gate, you can just make 4 spores will be cost effective, even if he does nothing with them. Now the fun part. Tested 4 phoenixes against two queens and two spores. Couldn't kill a queen if I focused queens. And killed, OMFG!!! 2 DRONES!! EFFING HUDGE ECONOMICAL ADVANTAGE FOR THE 1600 RESSOURCES SPENT ON GETTING THEM!!!!! Now suppose he makes more... Research Burrow: 100/100 (if i'm not wrong). GG (cuz he has mass phoenix, lol he can't have mass nix + mass gateway units). When trying to mess with numbers, don't take the example of the absolute newbie (I suppose that you are) who overreacts for anything and don't suppose 2 gate pheonix is free. In conclusion, my opinion for anyone else who is not a crying zerg as the sir quoted. 2 gate nix's gonna be obnoxious, but definitely won't be imba. Now the FG remove on air bothers me a bit more for drops etc... I just love to control air with my infestors. But it's true that it really made 2 gate nix damn useless. I would have seen some kind of a casting time on fungal growth, so that you can still pretty easily take dropships offguard (still letting the chance to the gosu to avoid it), and making it doable to dodge them with phoenixes. Would have been epic battles. Edit: Quotes owned me. | ||
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marx_x
70 Posts
On December 04 2010 19:29 sleepingdog wrote: Pfff god damn you blizz for making this NA only Well, at least I can safely theory-craft now and nobody will be able to "ffs test it first": I'm a protoss-player and from my perspective nearly all of the changes are completely ridiculous BS: - phoenix buildtime is fine: phoenixes are a strong unit that are used in a pretty big variety of strats. - fungal growth is fine: phoenix harass vs zerg is extremely strong when done properly, phoenixes own mutas. Their only weakness while doing hit/run is the threat of getting caught by fungal. This is a highly necessary to keep toss on its toes. - bunker buildtime DECREASED, you gotta be fucking kidding me: bunker-cheese is already disgusting in PvT, now blizz wants MORE offensive bunker-play? - no fix to gateway-units vs MMM whatsoever; awsome, this would've been the only fix really needed imo. - observer-cost doesn't change anything, if I lose to banshees than NOT because I can't AFFORD observers, but because I don't HAVE one in time. Making them build faster would've been a useful change, cost doesn't really matter. EDIT: new map plunder isle must be a joke, this map was HORRIBLE in warcraft 3, basicly the steppes of war on warcraft 3. sorry? mr as a terran i need to supply depot > barrack for this?why you crying about 5 second?they removed our fast proxy barracks and just giving 30 build time bunker,this called justice | ||
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millard killmore
United States4 Posts
On December 04 2010 18:51 andrewwiggin wrote: So... Zerg have to deal with a mass of fast flying air units that are great at harassing masses of probes/drones/scvs. .... wait a minute... see, the thing is, before this patch there were ways to deal with mutas as each race. terran could turret and get thors/stim marines and it would severely halt the harass because of the mobility of the marines or the shear damage to mutas of the thors. would it stop it? no, but it would stem the damage. protoss could open 2 gate (and in fact were starting to do this more and more to the point where mutas were seeing less and less play in ZvP) or, (however unrealistic) had the possibility of teching to storm. warp in an HT and storm to make a flock of mutas leave. a non-muta-ing player could get infestors and infest/hydra the mutas. with pheonix, the same solutions apply to toss/terran, and if zerg still had infest i would call this patch 100% fair. the issue is that without infest there is no solution that zerg has to combat mass pheonix. lets go through EVERYTHING that zerg has, unit by unit, to see the issues with each. drone-can't attack air zergling-can't attack air baneling-can't attack air roach-can't attack air spine crawler-can't attack air broodlord-can't attack air ultralisk-can't attack air (note, none of these last ones are whining, just trying to go for completeness. not leaving any unit out.) now, actual possibilities. queens-ineficient, can't be used on offence to much effect since they need to wait for creep to spread to even keep up with the army. defensively the number required to actually be effective against pheonix makes it not fesable spores-shoot much more slowly than turrets and cost a worker, bringing the total cost to 25 more than a turret for something slightly better than half as good as a turret. they also take 12 shots just to get one phoenix. the damage they do is honestly neglageble to someone with a cloud of more than 4 phoenix, even if you get 3/4 spores, simply because the damage the phoenix will be doing will MORE than make up for any superficial damage they take. mutas-phoenix are built as the counter to a heavily muta-ing zerg today, without the build time buff and elimination of fungal growth on air units in the patch, so i don't think i should have to go through why mutas are ineffective, but i will. phoenix do their bonus damage to mutas, meaning that they do the same damage as the muta, and 60 extra shields as well. this would be all fine and dandy if not for their special abbilities. the fact that they can move and shoot, outrange and outspeed the mutas means that a properly microd pack of phoenix will never take damage from mutas. even in a real game situation, if they do slip up they take maybe 1 volley from the mutas, still more than dishing out their fair share back. hydras-simply too slow. even on creep, the reality is that a flying unit of the SAME movement speed can outmanuver a large area ground army (like a hydra pack). phoenix, however, are faster than hydras, meaning that they are never going to get caught by a group of hydras. properly microed, they will take 3-4 hits MAYBE and then leave. infested terran-do i really have to do this? corruptor-best solution available, but still not THAT good. now, i have no problem with a unit not being THAT good at something, but when it's the race's best option in a situation, it had better be more than just kinda decent in that role, but that's another matter. corrupter's faults in this situation are several. they are slow, for starters. this means that they can't chase phoenix around the map like mutas kinda can. instead the phoenix, as they are intended to do against difiicult situations, just leave. the other problem with corruptors is their cost. they cost the same as a phoenix, so to get a realistically useful number, you have to invest a lot of resources into them. again, i would have no issue with this, but if you over spend on corruptors or the toss player switches to templar tech, you now have useless corruptors flying around. if you do morph them to broodlords, the 2gate suddenly starts makeing void rays, but that's a different kettle of fish. the important part is that corruptors are inneficient and inefective. that's it. now, so what? so the zerg can't just roflstomp phoenix and they can do some harrass. so? it's not that simple. phoenix harrass isn't just about drone killing. it's not as if you can just drone harder and take some losses. the big issue i've experienced when facing a mass phoenix player is that they just go around the map and kill overlords. i had one game (in which, i admit, i made a few mistakes) where there was a point when i had zero overlords. the thing is, there is NO cost to the phoenix to kill an overlord. it doesn't get slowed at all, just flies by. even with overlord speed, the phoenix are just fast enough to follow and kill them. once the overlords start dropping at all, the supply block means that the protoss can simply make an army to deal with what he sees on the ground (likely hydras, if a spire is up simply make more air units). if the phoenix get to a large enough number or get out fast enough, they can lift and kill hydras. if the hydra count is ever sufficiently dwarfed by the phoeinx count, the game is over. once the phoenix get high enough in number to engage the hydras head to head (which, with constant harras to the zerg and constant production with the toss is more than possible) then they can just dart between the 2-3 hatches the zerg has and kill anything that comes out, especially overlords, keeping the zerg in the red. you can't just "go fucking kill him" because this is by no means an all in sort of build, for the same reason you can't always just "go fucking kill" a muta-ing player. the toss can cannon up on 2 base and with forcefield support be unbreakable. once comfortable, they can also start expanding around the map, containing the zerg with the phoenix. if you do attempt to push, the phoenix can either a)harrass unoposed or b)help out in the attack (just by lifting enough units) and then after beating the ground army, the toss player can "just go fucking kill you." this build was difficult to deal with before, but fair. even with the phoenix build time decrease i would be okay with it, since i have no problem with zerg feeling some pressure themselves. without fungal growth to tie down the phoenix, however, there is simply nothing that can be done. not a single zerg unit that can attack air can go as fast as a phoenix, so if the phoenix simply keep moving, they can't be hit. if the ground forces ARE split up, the phoenix can overpower each individual part and eventually wittle down the defences. best case scenario is that the number of hydras/spore crawlers at each base means that instead of being picked apart, the zerg is simply contained. the zerg has no thor or storm or anything. they don't have a unit that comes out and then the zerg feels safe. this used to be the fungal growth on the infestor, but that no longer applies. and don't even get me started on zvz, suffice it to say a zerg will never again build a hydralisk against another zerg... tl;dr zerg do not have a realistic answer to mass phoenix play without fungal growth or nueral parasited high templar. | ||
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JoxxOr
Sweden1502 Posts
Also wtf about fungal? ZvZ will be shit now | ||
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coddan
Estonia890 Posts
Extremely scared about the fungal nerf and not being able to hold down a key to produce more units. It will be ridiculous to make 30+ units in the late game. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://www.pastethat.com/media/files/2010/12/04/PlunderIsle.jpg)
