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On November 24 2010 08:32 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:59 Sideburn wrote:On November 24 2010 07:16 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:06 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 06:00 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now. Try 100% win rate for GOM tournaments. Zerg have won GSL 1, GSL 2, and the GOM All Star invitational. Also, Zerg make up 27 of 64 players at GSL 3. If that isn't OP, I don't know what is. 3 tournaments is an incredibly small sample size. The number of players at a single GSL event is an incredibly small sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from these statistics. yeah, you haven't taken a statistics course, have you? With the number of players we've had in all 3 GSLs, there are more than enough players to draw conclusions from the statistics. It's important to realize that we're not analyzing data here, we're actually looking at trends. The real data happens in the ladder, and then these players get the impression that terran cannot win in a long game, and zerg has incredible difficulty winning a rush game. Hence these trends manifest themselves in the GSL games. We don't need to look at every TvZ these guys play on the ladder, we can look at what builds they go for when their tournament life depends on it, and that's good enough as an indicator than anything else. The problem is not this early game terran cheese. The actual problem is that terrans do not believe they can win in the late-game against zerg, and so their only recourse is to do these 10-15 minute timing attacks. If terran felt comfortable in the late-game, then they would be less inclined to risk everything on cheese every series. So the problem is not that this cheese occurs, cheese should be allowed to occur, and is a powerful disincentive against certain types of play. Cheese is powerful but also needs to be fragile. As NewDawn demonstrated, it can be held off comfortably. If terrans figured out or were given more late-game viability, then they would not play such risky games.
Or maybe we're just seeing that Terrans are very comfortable with this 2-rax build and do it not because they do not believe in their late-game, but because the build is so powerful against zerg.
Again, as long the terran as really good game sense (I'm not claiming the build is easy), there doesn't seem to much risk in the build.
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On November 24 2010 08:24 Thetan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 08:19 Vaporized wrote:On November 24 2010 08:07 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 08:04 Vaporized wrote:
blind baneling nest with first 50 gas after speed, and a spine or two in key spots. every game until this nonsense stops. i havent lost to marines in a few days. 1750 diamond. if for some reason they dont push with marines -> 2 base banelings, scout for banshee. works very well for me.
this puts the terran in somewhat of a bind. if they went more then 2 barracks (terrans never have an expo if they are rushing marines) they are almost commited to bio, in which case i will roflstomp. a transition to blue flame hellions can be bad tho. i would rather see tanks come out of that factory. just make lings not banelings in that case. The problem with THIS build is that the terran DOES expo while pumping marines out of 2 rax now that i think about it one guy on metal made his barracks at his expo and expo'd fairly quickly. i defended like i described, and eventually with 2 base banelings i had enough bling to kill 2 bunkers, some marine maruader, and so many left over they instantly evaporated the expo command center. wish i saved that replay, just played it a few hours ago. maybe the terrans i play suck (possible, sure), but marine rushes are very predictable and in my experience, punishable. you dont need many drones to constantly make zerglings, and 2 gasses (sometimes i get 3) mining is enough over a few minutes to instantly morph 30-40 banelings when u are ready to push. I have a feeling you aren't playing anywhere near a high level if you have 750-1000 gas and min floating to devote to banelings
lol ok. zergs float resources all the time (the nature of being gas limited). we have the ability to make units simultaneously. i wait until i see what i need and then make a shitload of that. if banelings werent the answer then thats 10 mutas in one production cycle, or a shit load of roaches. not to mention im making lings the whole time (that cost no gas) which give me map control. against barracks only or barracks heavy builds enough lings to surround will save me if i need to defend a drop or something.
a large pack of lings (30-40+ like i said) will keep a terran in his base. if hes not moving out soon then i feel perfectly fine stockpiling gas because the units i need will be ready by the time he gets to my base. thats why i like to get a spire in mid game in case i need to hunt down dropships/banshees.
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On November 24 2010 08:01 Thetan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:59 Sideburn wrote:On November 24 2010 07:16 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:06 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 06:00 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now. Try 100% win rate for GOM tournaments. Zerg have won GSL 1, GSL 2, and the GOM All Star invitational. Also, Zerg make up 27 of 64 players at GSL 3. If that isn't OP, I don't know what is. 3 tournaments is an incredibly small sample size. The number of players at a single GSL event is an incredibly small sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from these statistics. yeah, you haven't taken a statistics course, have you? With the number of players we've had in all 3 GSLs, there are more than enough players to draw conclusions from the statistics. Not if, as the post i was responding to was, you are only looking at the WINNERS of the GSL (which has a sample size of 3) and at the race distribution of only GSL 3. I haven't seen data on W-L% by race in the GSL overall (though that data would be interesting).
As opposed to Protoss in the GSL? The game is balanced pretty badly right now and I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard buff Terran and Protoss, or simply nerf Zerg in the next patch to reach a better balance.
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On November 24 2010 08:33 Raid wrote:
If you call this cheese your very wrong because its more of an all-in because if you fail your so behind 2 bases vs 1 and the loss in scvs..
this too in regards to stockpiling resources. i feel i am at a huge advantage after fending off the all in and can afford to stockpile gas for a few minutes to see what he is doing. i have a huge economic advantage. whatever units he is getting... well i can make an overwhelming number of the counter. just the nature of how the game got to that point. if i was up on larva injects during the early phase i can make 1 or 2 rounds of drones to boost my economy after the rush. at that point its just a matter of seeing what the terran is doing and stomping it. this is even more pronounced with no gas marine rushes. u will be so far behind on gas that the few banshees or thors u have will do nothing.
ive beaten off a marine rush, macro'd, scouted, and seen thors. he pushes out with 3 of them + marines + scvs and the ensuing baneling battle is hilariously one sided. like his whole ball of units just evaporates instantly.
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oh no, no more free expansion? However you poor zergs must cope I cannot imagine.
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On November 24 2010 04:39 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:34 AnAngryDingo wrote:On November 24 2010 02:47 avilo wrote:On November 24 2010 01:18 rampaeg wrote:
Maybe blizzard should just make a better map pool with more maps like Shakuras...that would solve a lot of issues. YEAH GUY! Would you also suggest we use scrap station multiple times in ZvT series? That'd be just splendid. you obviously feel scrap station overwhelmingly favors zerg. what features of this map cause you to come to that conclusion? What about insane distance to counter 14hatch? Not to mention how easy it is for Zerg to defend both main and expo at the same time.. Then you've got this close air distance, so if you try to attack Zerg - ops, few (15) mutas are immidiately killing your base.. So to put it together, Zerg is here free to expo at will and you have to stay at your base for the whole game basicly.
What about insane distance to counter 14cc? Not to mention how easy it is for Terran to defend both main and expo at same time.. Then you've got this close Drop/Banshee distance, so if you try to attack Terran - oops, a few marauders (4) and banshees (1) are immediately killing your base.. So to put it together, Terran here is here free to expo at will and you have to stay at your base for the whole game basically.
Maps work both ways everyone.
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I'm more of a spectator than a player; something needs to happen because this makes for the MOST boring games.
I'm not even going to comment on balance since I'm only in scrub division.
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Well.. I have seen a lot of marine play on the ladder as well after GSL2 but nothing unscoutable and unstoppable so far. Really hard to cope with sure, but as I enjoy baneling play more than roach play in general, I don't mind hitting that fast nest after ling speed blindly. I haven't played anything too high leveled though, and if my opponents would control their marines better than they have, I would indeed be in trouble expanding at all, seeing how they can slowly build economy while keeping constant pressure and that means more marines coming my way and my larva all used on lings to stay alive.
Marines are a very strong all-around unit though while being extremely cheap and possible to build from the start so this type of play is to be expected i guess - even if it turns out to be stoppable there is no reason not to do it (if you still do as much damage to your enemy's economy when he needs to make units instead of drones and can't expand etc, you can still transition out and get a macro game, due to mules helping you out while pushing).
I guess we'll see how things develop shortly when the TvZ 'metagame' starts to stabilize a bit. Would indeed love to get my hands on a replay of this to study it a bit more closely than from VODs.
As I play for fun mostly and initially chose zerg as my race because people were saying it was the 'macro race' and thus leading to longer games, I kind of hope this all-in trend stops (or at least doesn't get any worse) so I could enjoy this matchup more. Not to say short games are not fun, but they are fun only in small doses now and then, constant 7-minute matches would eventually probably lead to less laddering in my part, even if I could win over half of them.
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Like others have said, I understand that Z needs a second hatch as a unit producing structure, but why does it have to be at the natural? It's 350 minerals, the cost of less than 3 rax or 3 gateways. You can one base 2 hatch until you're no longer fragile.
Early expanding should be risky. This type of play is rampant exactly because the other alternatives are some sort of sneaky attacks aimed at your workers. Considering how quickly Zerg can potentially rebuild workers compared to the other two races, the reason this works is because it larva starves. You have to either make units or either make workers.
Well, that larva limitation is self-imposed, by mostly refusing to make non-mining hatches.
Look at how Foxer plays, he makes an ungodly amount of barracks even though his marine force throughout most of the game is around 20-30 food. In "conventional" play two or three barracks could produce that. He invests in production capacity. This allows him to macro up marines really fast off two bases. He's locked to rax units though.
Zerg is unique in that no hatchery is ever obsolete. They all produce larva, which are used for everything from drones to ultralisks. Your investment is never wasted if you need or want to tech switch.
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Everything else aside, it makes for shit fucking gsl watching 
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well there isn't really a risk of doing this because of mules
On the other hand, back then if reapers fail to do some damage terran will be behind econ wise
Even if you fail to a 2 rax build, terran force zerg to produce zerglings while terran can still have a better econ because of mules (if so the terran send some scv) and ofc bunkers to defend any counters
But yeh let time deal with this
Terran is a race that is so good early game, i think protoss players may agree to this as well
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Let's hope this gsl is not won by another diferent zerg player like gsl1-2 and all stars or someone is gonna have a hard time justyfing the balance, besides "all terran players are allin noobs and FD nestea and kyrix are the best players in the world".
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On November 24 2010 08:59 Awatsu wrote:
Let's hope this gsl is not won by another diferent zerg player like gsl1-2 and all stars or someone is gonna have a hard time justyfing the balance, besides "all terran players are allin noobs and FD nestea and kyrix are the best players in the world".
That's the point, people base balance on "GSL"
MLG Dallas = TERRAN VS PROTOSS (Jinro vs Socke)
BLIZZCON = TERRAN VS PROTOSS (NEX GENIUS vs Loner)
and these tourneys are pre patch
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i still hatch first... only way to break me is to send all your scvs maybe. its still a huge risk going two rax.
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On November 24 2010 09:03 DarkRise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 08:59 Awatsu wrote:
Let's hope this gsl is not won by another diferent zerg player like gsl1-2 and all stars or someone is gonna have a hard time justyfing the balance, besides "all terran players are allin noobs and FD nestea and kyrix are the best players in the world". That's the point, people base balance on "GSL" MLG Dallas = TERRAN VS PROTOSS (Jinro vs Socke) BLIZZCON = TERRAN VS PROTOSS (NEX GENIUS vs Loner) and these tourneys are pre patch
Look at the quality of players in that tourney vs GSL.
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The fact that they are even doing similar things to toss reminds me of what blizz said about the TvP matchup. How it didn't seem that it was the stimmed marauders that were a problem...it was the rines.
Rines are basically the ultimate unit until splash comes out.
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I really, REALLY am amused by all the reformed terrans trying to explain to long time zerg players to "l2p".
Anyone can safely bet that 99.9% of 'new' zerg players giving "advice" in this thread can't do jack squat aside from mass zergling into mass roach into mass muta. For the amount of zerg I see on the ladder currently, it's really funny that every ZvT & ZvZ has fell into such a brain dead, noob-friendly "get 2 bases 40 roaches 1a and if it doesn't work keep doing it !!!".
Roach HP has to be nerfed and some its health transfered to hydralisks, that way you won't see 99 games out of 100 degenerate into 1 unit spam.
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On November 24 2010 09:30 Shinkugami wrote:
I really, REALLY am amused by all the reformed terrans trying to explain to long time zerg players to "l2p".
Anyone can safely bet that 99.9% of 'new' zerg players giving "advice" in this thread can't do jack squat aside from mass zergling into mass roach into mass muta. For the amount of zerg I see on the ladder currently, it's really funny that every ZvT & ZvZ has fell into such a brain dead, noob-friendly "get 2 bases 40 roaches 1a and if it doesn't work keep doing it !!!".
Roach HP has to be nerfed and some its health transfered to hydralisks, that way you won't see 99 games out of 100 degenerate into 1 unit spam.
now now, no elitism. The last thing Zerg needs is a three groups of which two are elitist. (old school sc1 +2 zergs, always sc2 Zergs, and new sc2 zergs). what i said early in this thread is true. there are alot of LITTLE tricks you can add in to any build seemlessly to defend these attacks ALOT easier. and hell my standard opening rocks this build unless i mess up or the terran is worlds ahead of me micro wise.
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On November 24 2010 08:59 Awatsu wrote:
Let's hope this gsl is not won by another diferent zerg player like gsl1-2 and all stars or someone is gonna have a hard time justyfing the balance, besides "all terran players are allin noobs and FD nestea and kyrix are the best players in the world".
The fact that GSL 1 & 2 and All Stars was won by 3 Zergs is proof of balance issues. If you examine the finals in depth, there was nothing Terran could do past mid-game. Foxer realized this and went agressive early because late game is always a Zerg win.
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On November 24 2010 09:08 VenerableSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 09:03 DarkRise wrote:On November 24 2010 08:59 Awatsu wrote:
Let's hope this gsl is not won by another diferent zerg player like gsl1-2 and all stars or someone is gonna have a hard time justyfing the balance, besides "all terran players are allin noobs and FD nestea and kyrix are the best players in the world". That's the point, people base balance on "GSL" MLG Dallas = TERRAN VS PROTOSS (Jinro vs Socke) BLIZZCON = TERRAN VS PROTOSS (NEX GENIUS vs Loner) and these tourneys are pre patch Look at the quality of players in that tourney vs GSL.
The only quality they lack is how to perform good all-ins if GSL3 has any say in that matter.
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EPT
