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On November 24 2010 07:06 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:00 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now. Try 100% win rate for GOM tournaments. Zerg have won GSL 1, GSL 2, and the GOM All Star invitational. Also, Zerg make up 27 of 64 players at GSL 3. If that isn't OP, I don't know what is.
3 tournaments is an incredibly small sample size. The number of players at a single GSL event is an incredibly small sample size.
No real conclusions can be drawn from these statistics.
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I still don't see zergs use spine crawlers as much as they should. You can drop 3 and even if he doesn't build a single marines you can use those crawlers later to great effect.
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If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced.
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ive watched alot of replays and i dont really see how its that good. its not particularly hard to scout and if u do its ez to stop.
its only bad if u dont scout it and dont prepare at all for it.
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On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced.
actually, you need that fast hatch for macro to stay even and/or ahead of terran - hatch before 20 food is rather mandatory if you plan on playing longer than 10 minutes
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On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced.
WILL PEOPLE STOP THINKING THE TERRAN ALL-IN IS ONLY AGAINST A FAST EXPAND?
Like Idra said earlier in the thread, this new T style is very hard to defend if you go 14gas/14pool -> speed. 7-8 marines can pop into your base before speed has even finished.
It's incredibly strong against anything the zerg wants to do, it's incredibly flexible for the terran, and it's completely unscoutable.
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Why people mistake having to have 2 hatcheries with having to have 1 expansion ?
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On November 24 2010 07:23 Thetan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced. WILL PEOPLE STOP THINKING THE TERRAN ALL-IN IS ONLY AGAINST A FAST EXPAND? Like Idra said earlier in the thread, this new T style is very hard to defend if you go 14gas/14pool -> speed. 7-8 marines can pop into your base before speed has even finished. It's incredibly strong against anything the zerg wants to do, it's incredibly flexible for the terran, and it's completely unscoutable.
i have never seen it against something else. point out some games please?
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On November 24 2010 06:15 Phrencys wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Another crippling factor is how every single tier1 unit need Lair to have a decent moving speed off-creep. Combine that with the fact T can wall-off safely there's no wonder why every single zerg is expected to make 40 drones before making anything else. Zerg is pinned in his base by design, and it doesn't even have the necessary mechanics to have a proper early defense.
Roaches have 2.25 speed, Banelings 2.5 and hydralisks 2.25. Zealots and sentries are both 2.25 as are both marines and marauders. Creep speed is such a huge "taken for granted" benefit. People always complain about how slow hydras are off-creep. That's only because zerg players are so used to their units being so dang fast! Try using the slow (2.25) zealot with 0 range before you complain about slow units...
People drive me nuts when they complain about the necessary apm to spread creep. It gives you speed/vision/prevents buildings by other races and is FREE!
/Rant
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How is it unscoutable? The 2 rax are down before any Marines are out. Hell, in every GSL game we've seen it used so far the Zerg has scouted it, not that it isn't getting to the point where you can basically blind counter it because it's becoming so common.
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Its really ez to stop imo. Build a spinecrawler in the main while ur natural hatchery is building and u should be fine
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On November 24 2010 07:30 busdriver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:15 Phrencys wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Another crippling factor is how every single tier1 unit need Lair to have a decent moving speed off-creep. Combine that with the fact T can wall-off safely there's no wonder why every single zerg is expected to make 40 drones before making anything else. Zerg is pinned in his base by design, and it doesn't even have the necessary mechanics to have a proper early defense. Roaches have 2.25 speed, Banelings 2.5 and hydralisks 2.25. Zealots and sentries are both 2.25 as are both marines and marauders. Creep speed is such a huge "taken for granted" benefit. People always complain about how slow hydras are off-creep. That's only because zerg players are so used to their units being so dang fast! Try using the slow (2.25) zealot with 0 range before you complain about slow units... People drive me nuts when they complain about the necessary apm to spread creep. It gives you speed/vision/prevents buildings by other races and is FREE! /Rant
But the fact that zerg can't wall, cast FF's, or have really strong AOE defenders (siege tanks, PF), means that they NEED mobility to be able to both be aggressive and be able to defend their own base.
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On November 24 2010 07:24 noD wrote:
Why people mistake having to have 2 hatcheries with having to have 1 expansion ?
Exactly. Zerg may need 2 hatches to keep up with unit production, but they don't need 2 "bases" (defined as hatcheries on minerals). Two "bases" that early gives zerg a dominated economic advantage. Terran has to make multiple barracks/factories/starports while protoss has to make multiple gateways/robos/stargates. I don't think it's unfair that zerg should have to make multiple hatcheries to keep up without getting an automatic 2nd base. By all means take a FE, but don't think you deserve to get it without risk.
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I've been messing around with 2 rax play for a while now, and I don't ever do the all-in garbage that Korean Terrans seem to love just because they saw FoxeR do it. I use the initial around 8 marines to put on pressure which buys time to get a 3rd rax, add-ons on each of the barracks and an expansion down.
It's a really strong opener that doesn't HAVE to do damage to justify it. You simply delay your gas until after your second barracks and from there you can play pretty standard.
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On November 24 2010 07:23 Thetan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced. WILL PEOPLE STOP THINKING THE TERRAN ALL-IN IS ONLY AGAINST A FAST EXPAND? Like Idra said earlier in the thread, this new T style is very hard to defend if you go 14gas/14pool -> speed. 7-8 marines can pop into your base before speed has even finished. It's incredibly strong against anything the zerg wants to do, it's incredibly flexible for the terran, and it's completely unscoutable.
Idra is a subpar Zerg player in GSL, End of Story. Fruitdealer and Kyrix had no issues defending against the best Terran 14 hatch rusher - Foxer.
Don't quote subpar zerg players that have yet to win the GSL or GOM All Star Invitational.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 24 2010 07:16 Thetan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:06 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 06:00 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now. Try 100% win rate for GOM tournaments. Zerg have won GSL 1, GSL 2, and the GOM All Star invitational. Also, Zerg make up 27 of 64 players at GSL 3. If that isn't OP, I don't know what is. 3 tournaments is an incredibly small sample size. The number of players at a single GSL event is an incredibly small sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from these statistics.
6000 people trying out in the preliminaries is a small sample all right.
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On November 24 2010 07:15 Sideburn wrote:
IEM and MLG are totally the same level tournaments as the GSL and GOM All Star Invitational.
^^^
ROFL! Quote of the day!
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On November 24 2010 07:38 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:23 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced. WILL PEOPLE STOP THINKING THE TERRAN ALL-IN IS ONLY AGAINST A FAST EXPAND? Like Idra said earlier in the thread, this new T style is very hard to defend if you go 14gas/14pool -> speed. 7-8 marines can pop into your base before speed has even finished. It's incredibly strong against anything the zerg wants to do, it's incredibly flexible for the terran, and it's completely unscoutable. Idra is a subpar Zerg player in GSL, End of Story. Fruitdealer and Kyrix had no issues defending against the best Terran 14 hatch rusher - Foxer. Don't quote subpar zerg players that have yet to win the GSL or GOM All Star Invitational.
so idra isnt a valid source but you are? sounds.... weird?
i dont even care about this topic cause as i said earlier people really need to stop overreacting to some fotm trend. but your post makes no sense.
On November 24 2010 07:41 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:16 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:06 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 06:00 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now. Try 100% win rate for GOM tournaments. Zerg have won GSL 1, GSL 2, and the GOM All Star invitational. Also, Zerg make up 27 of 64 players at GSL 3. If that isn't OP, I don't know what is. 3 tournaments is an incredibly small sample size. The number of players at a single GSL event is an incredibly small sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from these statistics. 6000 people trying out in the preliminaries is a small sample all right.
what has this to do with players in the gsl which are 64? and the prelims are damn random. thats why great players like nada,tester and huk arent qualifying while there are random 2k players in that get horrible face stomped in the ro64
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On November 24 2010 07:23 Thetan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced. WILL PEOPLE STOP THINKING THE TERRAN ALL-IN IS ONLY AGAINST A FAST EXPAND? Like Idra said earlier in the thread, this new T style is very hard to defend if you go 14gas/14pool -> speed. 7-8 marines can pop into your base before speed has even finished. It's incredibly strong against anything the zerg wants to do, it's incredibly flexible for the terran, and it's completely unscoutable.
Lol, repeating what IdrA said in a different order doesn't make you seem smart, it also doesn't make it true. In fact, looking at your posts it doesn't seem like you've played against this style at all and are just arguing because you're a Zerg player.
Saying it is unscoutable, unlimitingly flexible and a counter to everything Zerg does is just a silly way to show you've been brainwashed by Artosis 
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On November 24 2010 07:46 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:23 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced. WILL PEOPLE STOP THINKING THE TERRAN ALL-IN IS ONLY AGAINST A FAST EXPAND? Like Idra said earlier in the thread, this new T style is very hard to defend if you go 14gas/14pool -> speed. 7-8 marines can pop into your base before speed has even finished. It's incredibly strong against anything the zerg wants to do, it's incredibly flexible for the terran, and it's completely unscoutable. Lol, repeating what IdrA said in a different order doesn't make you seem smart, it also doesn't make it true. In fact, looking at your posts it doesn't seem like you've played against this style at all and are just arguing because you're a Zerg player. Saying it is unscoutable, unlimitingly flexible and a counter to everything Zerg does is just a silly way to show you've been brainwashed by Artosis
I brought it up because people were arguing a completely different point. And I trust Idra's opinion way more than the random posters in the forum.
The point is that using this build, Terran can react to whatever zerg is doing. If there's an opening, Terran has the capabilities do critical damage. And if there isn't an opening, Terran can get their expansion down first as zerg was being mega defensive.
It's not an EASY build for Terran (as knowledge of when to push out and with how many SCV's takes alot of skill), but from what i've seen and read that if done right makes it EXTREMELY difficult for zerg
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EPT
