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On November 24 2010 06:05 TonyT123 wrote:
I feel like this is another annoying over reaction to a fast hatch at the natch. As a zerg player i can say it IS necessary to make a second hatch very fucking fast if you dont want to get steamrolled by the first push simply because the hatch is where we make all our units. the fact that the hatch is at the natural is often just out of convenience...ie, we would expand there eventually anyways so it makes more sense to put it there than in the base...really doesn't matter that much. most of those early fast expands never get close to saturated early on...they're for MAKING UNITS. Like offensive units.
you don't feel that main your 2nd hatch in the main would be infinitely easier to defend? When I first switched to Zerg that's all I did exactly for the reason that it makes it that much easier to defend. I eventually started 14 hatching at my expo when I started getting better and could defend easier, and continue to do so because so few people are able to properly execute the marine/scv rush and basically just give me a free win. At the very very very top level the players can take down the natural easily with this rush but think about how much easier it would be to stop with the hatch in your main and a couple spine crawlers at the top of your ramp. You expand to your natural when you're able to without dying, just like P and T have to. You don't see Protoss making 2 gateways at their natural do you? Why should Zerg be able to make a building at their natural with no punishment, this is something I've just never understood why we think we should just automatically get a free expansion, logical just doesn't make sense to me.
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On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence.
They cannot patch the rush itself out. I mean, what are they gonna do? Make marine cost gas? They already made the Depot first change so slow it down and I think it's as far as they can get.
The problem here is Zerg's weak/unstable early game, not Terran's rush.
Problem #1: Zerg need a 2nd hatch pronto otherwise they'll be larvae starved in the following minutes.
Problem #2: Zerg cannot make a solid D until they have creep, whereas Protoss/Terran can wall their choke.
Something has to change in zerg early game. They need to look at small design tweaks like allowing OLs to generate creep right away to position spines earlier. They should also consider making Hatchery and/or Queen and/or spine build faster. There are other avenues such as boosting base larvae generation or making injects add a couple more larvaes, but these would probably ruin mid and late game balance.
Another crippling factor is how every single tier1 unit need Lair to have a decent moving speed off-creep. Combine that with the fact T can wall-off safely there's no wonder why every single zerg is expected to make 40 drones before making anything else. Zerg is pinned in his base by design, and it doesn't even have the necessary mechanics to have a proper early defense.
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The problem is not with Terran, it's with the fact that
A) Blizzard maps are way too small so they're prone to rushes
B) Terran can't macro against Zerg, you will lose. You have to punish them for early econ
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I know there's a lot of decent discussion in this thread, but pointing out a response to a fast expansion is "cheese" is really ignorant and has no place in serious discussion. A measured response to a scouted build with a high chance of success is the opposite of cheese - it's proper play as opposed to blind rushing based on trickery.
I really wish cheese was a bannable term when thrown around incorrectly at this point =/
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The rush hasn't been shown to be even close to gamebreaking; hell, in the GSL it's performing rather poorly so far (although we obviously have a very small amount of data). Why are people so up in arms about it being ridiculous with basically no backing?
edit: Phrencys, Zerglings need creep to move effectively? That's news to me.
Also, Roaches may not have jetpacks pre-lair, but they move just as fast as Marines so if Roaches are pinned into your base until Lair then Marines are pinned into their base for eternity.
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On November 24 2010 06:14 The Icon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:05 TonyT123 wrote:
I feel like this is another annoying over reaction to a fast hatch at the natch. As a zerg player i can say it IS necessary to make a second hatch very fucking fast if you dont want to get steamrolled by the first push simply because the hatch is where we make all our units. the fact that the hatch is at the natural is often just out of convenience...ie, we would expand there eventually anyways so it makes more sense to put it there than in the base...really doesn't matter that much. most of those early fast expands never get close to saturated early on...they're for MAKING UNITS. Like offensive units. you don't feel that main your 2nd hatch in the main would be infinitely easier to defend? When I first switched to Zerg that's all I did exactly for the reason that it makes it that much easier to defend. I eventually started 14 hatching at my expo when I started getting better and could defend easier, and continue to do so because so few people are able to properly execute the marine/scv rush and basically just give me a free win. At the very very very top level the players can take down the natural easily with this rush but think about how much easier it would be to stop with the hatch in your main and a couple spine crawlers at the top of your ramp. You expand to your natural when you're able to without dying, just like P and T have to. You don't see Protoss making 2 gateways at their natural do you? Why should Zerg be able to make a building at their natural with no punishment, this is something I've just never understood why we think we should just automatically get a free expansion, logical just doesn't make sense to me.
Nice to see some unbiased posts every now and then. Thank you for being honest and avoiding the bandwagon influence.
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On November 24 2010 06:14 The Icon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:05 TonyT123 wrote:
I feel like this is another annoying over reaction to a fast hatch at the natch. As a zerg player i can say it IS necessary to make a second hatch very fucking fast if you dont want to get steamrolled by the first push simply because the hatch is where we make all our units. the fact that the hatch is at the natural is often just out of convenience...ie, we would expand there eventually anyways so it makes more sense to put it there than in the base...really doesn't matter that much. most of those early fast expands never get close to saturated early on...they're for MAKING UNITS. Like offensive units. you don't feel that main your 2nd hatch in the main would be infinitely easier to defend? When I first switched to Zerg that's all I did exactly for the reason that it makes it that much easier to defend. I eventually started 14 hatching at my expo when I started getting better and could defend easier, and continue to do so because so few people are able to properly execute the marine/scv rush and basically just give me a free win. At the very very very top level the players can take down the natural easily with this rush but think about how much easier it would be to stop with the hatch in your main and a couple spine crawlers at the top of your ramp. You expand to your natural when you're able to without dying, just like P and T have to. You don't see Protoss making 2 gateways at their natural do you? Why should Zerg be able to make a building at their natural with no punishment, this is something I've just never understood why we think we should just automatically get a free expansion, logical just doesn't make sense to me.
Stop comparing apples to oranges already.
Why p and t do not build at natural?
1) They do? not too usual but they do
2) both p and t have ways to take advantage of ramp and high ground:
Wall ins with marines behind, 1 zelot in artificial choke stoping 10 lings, FF the ramp to split the army etc..
Zerg on the other hand DOES NOT benefit from high ground early on, Once you have some roaches then maybe. One thing possible is to hatch at the ramp and spine like you did in BW but anyone even see that one in pro game? So until roaches you are much better in open space where you can surround with lings, trust me i d rather fight 10 marines 10 scvs at the natural then near my ramp where i cant even get to marines. So in this case high ground and ramp give advantage to attacker rather then defender, making it pointless to hatch in the main.
P.S. Unbiased post LAWL right
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Are we REALLY discussing an allin that defeats a VERY GREEDY FE by zerg? Come on people...
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On November 24 2010 06:14 The Icon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:05 TonyT123 wrote:
I feel like this is another annoying over reaction to a fast hatch at the natch. As a zerg player i can say it IS necessary to make a second hatch very fucking fast if you dont want to get steamrolled by the first push simply because the hatch is where we make all our units. the fact that the hatch is at the natural is often just out of convenience...ie, we would expand there eventually anyways so it makes more sense to put it there than in the base...really doesn't matter that much. most of those early fast expands never get close to saturated early on...they're for MAKING UNITS. Like offensive units. you don't feel that main your 2nd hatch in the main would be infinitely easier to defend? When I first switched to Zerg that's all I did exactly for the reason that it makes it that much easier to defend. I eventually started 14 hatching at my expo when I started getting better and could defend easier, and continue to do so because so few people are able to properly execute the marine/scv rush and basically just give me a free win. At the very very very top level the players can take down the natural easily with this rush but think about how much easier it would be to stop with the hatch in your main and a couple spine crawlers at the top of your ramp. You expand to your natural when you're able to without dying, just like P and T have to. You don't see Protoss making 2 gateways at their natural do you? Why should Zerg be able to make a building at their natural with no punishment, this is something I've just never understood why we think we should just automatically get a free expansion, logical just doesn't make sense to me.
as i said ill make the hatch in the main if i feel like i need to, but its more convenient to put it at the natural simply because you'll hopefully be expanding there anyways. and then when your ready for your third hatch, put it at another expo. its usually not till late in the game that i start doubling up hatches at bases, it just seems wasteful since i'd be putting one at an expo anyways. its just a quirk based on the fact that our unit production buildings are the same as our resource collecting buildings...its not like that fast expo is gonna be magically instantly saturated, like T always seems to fear, enough to go ALL IN with SCVS.
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i dont see a problem with this rush so far, one or two spine crawlers should be able to stop that until you get speedlings and banelings a bit later - i dont think this will lead to huge economic disadvantages since the 2 rax opening also also has its disadvantages if it doesnt cause any damage to zerg and as said before very few people are able to execute it well
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On November 24 2010 06:13 ckw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:10 Jermstuddog wrote:
Ok, here's a little homework for everybody who thinks 14 hatch or any similar opening is advantageous for Zerg.
Open up any high-level ZvT replay that involves a fast hatchery.
Press I and get to the income tab.
Mark down the time at which Zerg overtakes Terran for having a higher income between them.
There will be a tiny blip at the 9-10 worker mark, then zerg starts building structures and he will remain significantly behind in econ until the 8+ minute mark. I guarantee you will find nothing to the contrary.
Feel free to link any replay that proves otherwise right here. This is the same for ANY of the races that would take an expansion that fast. Show ME a replay that proves otherwise. Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:12 Coolcatqt wrote:On November 24 2010 06:10 Jermstuddog wrote:
Ok, here's a little homework for everybody who thinks 14 hatch or any similar opening is advantageous for Zerg.
Open up any high-level ZvT replay that involves a fast hatchery.
Press I and get to the income tab.
Mark down the time at which Zerg overtakes Terran for having a higher income between them.
There will be a tiny blip at the 9-10 worker mark, then zerg starts building structures and he will remain significantly behind in econ until the 8+ minute mark. I guarantee you will find nothing to the contrary.
Feel free to link any replay that proves otherwise right here. tested this, it is true Keep defending your 1 base allins, Terranwhiners Last time I checked the Terrans weren't the ones whining, you were. lol, how cute.
im reading your posts, and they are full of whine :p cute
To all the people talking about a free expo, you're obviously scrubs that never played brood war, most balanced game ever and thats how it worked there too unless you were cheesed (Sounds like sc2 huh)
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Why does everyone insist on going 14 hatch. The overhead of having to produce more drones to saturate leaves you relatively defenseless. It's better to expand off of 13 gas/pool speedlings with a queen, as you can gauge how many lings you need and how many drones you can afford to pump using your initial lings for scouting.
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On November 24 2010 06:17 ckw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:14 The Icon wrote:On November 24 2010 06:05 TonyT123 wrote:
I feel like this is another annoying over reaction to a fast hatch at the natch. As a zerg player i can say it IS necessary to make a second hatch very fucking fast if you dont want to get steamrolled by the first push simply because the hatch is where we make all our units. the fact that the hatch is at the natural is often just out of convenience...ie, we would expand there eventually anyways so it makes more sense to put it there than in the base...really doesn't matter that much. most of those early fast expands never get close to saturated early on...they're for MAKING UNITS. Like offensive units. you don't feel that main your 2nd hatch in the main would be infinitely easier to defend? When I first switched to Zerg that's all I did exactly for the reason that it makes it that much easier to defend. I eventually started 14 hatching at my expo when I started getting better and could defend easier, and continue to do so because so few people are able to properly execute the marine/scv rush and basically just give me a free win. At the very very very top level the players can take down the natural easily with this rush but think about how much easier it would be to stop with the hatch in your main and a couple spine crawlers at the top of your ramp. You expand to your natural when you're able to without dying, just like P and T have to. You don't see Protoss making 2 gateways at their natural do you? Why should Zerg be able to make a building at their natural with no punishment, this is something I've just never understood why we think we should just automatically get a free expansion, logical just doesn't make sense to me. Nice to see some unbiased posts every now and then. Thank you for being honest and avoiding the bandwagon influence.
Possibly unbiased but certainly not well informed.
Terran will just park bunkers at your natural and laugh as you choke yourself up your own ramp. Zerg needs to defend down their ramp because their units need space, and have early creep to put down spine crawlers and run faster than snail speed.
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On November 24 2010 06:17 ckw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:14 The Icon wrote:On November 24 2010 06:05 TonyT123 wrote:
I feel like this is another annoying over reaction to a fast hatch at the natch. As a zerg player i can say it IS necessary to make a second hatch very fucking fast if you dont want to get steamrolled by the first push simply because the hatch is where we make all our units. the fact that the hatch is at the natural is often just out of convenience...ie, we would expand there eventually anyways so it makes more sense to put it there than in the base...really doesn't matter that much. most of those early fast expands never get close to saturated early on...they're for MAKING UNITS. Like offensive units. you don't feel that main your 2nd hatch in the main would be infinitely easier to defend? When I first switched to Zerg that's all I did exactly for the reason that it makes it that much easier to defend. I eventually started 14 hatching at my expo when I started getting better and could defend easier, and continue to do so because so few people are able to properly execute the marine/scv rush and basically just give me a free win. At the very very very top level the players can take down the natural easily with this rush but think about how much easier it would be to stop with the hatch in your main and a couple spine crawlers at the top of your ramp. You expand to your natural when you're able to without dying, just like P and T have to. You don't see Protoss making 2 gateways at their natural do you? Why should Zerg be able to make a building at their natural with no punishment, this is something I've just never understood why we think we should just automatically get a free expansion, logical just doesn't make sense to me. Nice to see some unbiased posts every now and then. Thank you for being honest and avoiding the bandwagon influence.
So disagreeing with you = bandwagoning? cute 
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On November 24 2010 06:29 LunarC wrote:
Why does everyone insist on going 14 hatch. The overhead of having to produce more drones to saturate leaves you relatively defenseless. It's better to expand off of 13 gas/pool speedlings with a queen, as you can gauge how many lings you need and how many drones you can afford to pump using your initial lings for scouting.
Are you delusional? And every pro zerg in GSL is wrong acording to you.
The reason being is you dont need ANY lings if you hatch first (well you need 2 for scouts, but it could be a drone too) Reason being is creep at natural for spines. 13gas/pool makes you sit at 3 larva having less units and much lower income for a while compared to hatch first.
Overhead of saturating leaves you defenseless is just a joke.... Who is forcing you to saturate both bases before making units?
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I don't understand why the second in-base hatch isn't given more consideration.
One of the main reasons zerg needs an extra base is so that they have the larvae to make both units and workers. Two in base hatches would be much easier to defend (natural creep spread), and provides you with the opportunity to immediately saturate your natural when you take it.
I'd love to see someone with actual skill try the in-base out. My mid-level diamond theory crafting is only polluting this thread further...
EDIT; http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155749
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The funny thing is, a Zerg who goes 14 hatch, and tries to defend, has a much better time defending all the follow ups Terran can throw at you, since a Terran doesnt even have to commit the push.
Wallin at Bottom of the ramp, 2 rax, fake push, pull back before speed kicks in (build bunker @ bottom of their base or smth like that, and go back. Bunkers are Free) Build CC/Starport whatever, and no Zerg before Lair Tech has even a chance to scout what the fuck you are doing up your ramp. He has Income advantage, you have 1 base fuck, wasted larvae/drones on (spines)/Ling/Baneling Nest/Banes (requires 3 drones on gas all the time) and this shit is completely USELESS, since by the time you might bust him he has a double wallin.
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Come on, you can't expect Zergs to be able to 14 hatch safely every game and not even have to commit to a defense?
That's the price you have to pay for attempting to enter the mid game with a solid lead and I don't see how this is a problem at all seeing that Zergs can definitely hold given the right situation.
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EPT
