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alright, this makes the map FAIR IMO. we have to travel just as far to get to terran as terran does to us. close air distance works for terran also doing drops in mid-late game. and how is it easier for zerg to defend their main and natural than any other map. long distance between means creep spread is paramount, plus those backdoor rocks(more of an issue vs protoss) also, taking a 3rd can be tricky. and mid-game, you can also break the rocks, leaving an incredibly short distance from base to base.
Man, seriously.. Run Starcraft 2 -> Single Player -> Play against A.I -> Steppes of War -> play as Terran.. Try to cross this map with siege tanks so that you wont instantly lose to swarm of Zerglings catching you unsieged in 2 seconds.. Close air distance works for terran good 1-2 ingame minutes when they try to abuse banshees. Once mutas pops out you are doomed to sit back and watch Zerg cover whole map.. If you dont know, how easy it is to defend expo on this map, I suggest to watch random replay of TvZ on this map and it should be clear..
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I watched those games and thought it was fine. Allowing no means of punishing a hatch first zerg is just stupid. So if toss canons a hatch first zerg or terran 2 rax rushes then its a valid response to a greedy opener. Making balance comments based on this evolution in the game is probably premature.
What I would say is that it says a lot when terran feels pressured to pull his scvs to all in at this point. It basically means they are running out of ideas against zerg beyond the first few minutes in the game.
What needs to be done is to somehow weaken these terran early mid game plays and buff their end game. IMO the battle cruiser nerf was a step in the wrong direction for them.
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On November 24 2010 04:48 AnAngryDingo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:39 Everlong wrote:On November 24 2010 04:34 AnAngryDingo wrote:On November 24 2010 02:47 avilo wrote:On November 24 2010 01:18 rampaeg wrote:
Maybe blizzard should just make a better map pool with more maps like Shakuras...that would solve a lot of issues. YEAH GUY! Would you also suggest we use scrap station multiple times in ZvT series? That'd be just splendid. you obviously feel scrap station overwhelmingly favors zerg. what features of this map cause you to come to that conclusion? What about insane distance to counter 14hatch? Not to mention how easy it is for Zerg to defend both main and expo at the same time.. Then you've got this close air distance, so if you try to attack Zerg - ops, few (15) mutas are immidiately killing your base.. So to put it together, Zerg is here free to expo at will and you have to stay at your base for the whole game basicly. alright, this makes the map FAIR IMO. we have to travel just as far to get to terran as terran does to us. close air distance works for terran also doing drops in mid-late game. and how is it easier for zerg to defend their main and natural than any other map. long distance between means creep spread is paramount, plus those backdoor rocks(more of an issue vs protoss) also, taking a 3rd can be tricky. and mid-game, you can also break the rocks, leaving an incredibly short distance from base to base. IMO, terrans just want more maps like steppes of war where they can just tank push a few feet from their natural to the zerg's natural, never allowing the zerg to make drones because of the constant threat of attack with no fear of a counter. or they want/need more maps that are straight up unfair and ABUSIVE such as LT and Kulas. To me, its silly for terrans to complain about the current map pool. All the "Zerg" maps are just the maps that are fair for all the races to compete on, and there are at least 4 maps currently in the pool that BLATANTLY favor terran over zerg. (LT, jungle basin lol, Steppes, and DQ) also, close positions on Metal favor terran too. you can't really argue that this is fact. i'm not saying there isn't an issue, because there possibly is. a lot of top terrans playing this way IS alarming. i just feel like blaming "zerg maps" as the problem is not correct. there is a much deeper problem at hand if this is the only way for terran to beat zerg in high level play.
Except you forgot about mutalisks. If terran or protoss attack on scrap station you can send 12 mutas over and destroy all scvs/probes and still be back in time for a nap before the ground war begins. Agreed with you on LT though - thor/tank drops at the natural cliff are so frustrating and hard to stop.
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On November 24 2010 04:49 Pewt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:44 schimmetje wrote:On November 24 2010 04:12 Pewt wrote:On November 24 2010 03:32 schimmetje wrote:
I guess things like these are easier than improving your overall game (I really don't buy the whole "it's necessary" thing, Zerg is not dominating as hard as people are suggesting). Personally I expand slightly later anyways, I consider it a flaw in my play which needs to be fixed, but it certainly helps when running into these. As such I don't mind much, though I do hope SC2 will move past the whole "must end it in 10 minutes using the flavor of the month build" thing soon, because.. well it's kind of boring. I would buy this if it were just nobodies doing these builds, but people like RainbOw are not exactly newbies who don't know how to macro (and you'll notice many of the same players who 1base all in every TvZ play very strong macro games in TvT. TvP is sort of 50/50). As I said earlier, the fact that players like RainbOw feel it's necessary to use a coinflip all in build to beat no names is worrying (even on maps like Shakuras which are strongly biased towards macro and against 1base play). I'm a ITR fan to be honest, but I think he could have done better in other ways. If he indeed felt this was necessary, that's not a comforting thought, as said trend will then likely continue and that kind of sucks. I'm just not sure how much of people feeling it's necessary is based on fact and how much of it is the atmosphere created. For now I'm leaning more towards the latter. Yeah, I don't know either way for sure, but he used to play more macro based and now he's doing all ins even on maps that are terrible for them, so apparently something or other has convinced him that they're good/necessary. It just bugs me that people are making it sound like the only people who are doing these all ins are newbies who don't really know how to play whereas in reality some of the most accomplished Terrans around are doing them over and over.
Oh true, there's some very good players doing this. I just wish they didn't, because I do feel they can do better and because of the signal it sends to, well, the less good players. Still confident someone will eventually move beyond this phase into something new though. Well. Somewhat confident. Ehm. Anyone? Please?
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The solution is more requirements to orbital. in SC1 you need the academy which is made after u get ur expo cc up and make second rax & gaz, so all ins cant be done with perfect scouting info like the 2rax in sc2, thus they maintain more risk and are tried less often.
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On November 24 2010 05:06 xarthaz wrote:
The solution is more requirements to orbital. in SC1 you need the academy which is made after u get ur expo cc up and make second rax & gaz, so all ins cant be done with perfect scouting info like the 2rax in sc2, thus they maintain more risk and are tried less often.
The solution isn't nerf T, it's buff T's late game so they aren't desperate to win early. It's not even like this all in 2 rax stuff works all that often, even in the GSL it's only working about 50% of the time.
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I have heard so many complaints when I do this rush against greedy Zergs but the only response I can give is, hey, if I 14 CC are you really going to just sit there and watch? No, you'r gunna punish me so it's only fair that Zergs don't just get a free expansion.
On November 24 2010 05:06 xarthaz wrote:
The solution is more requirements to orbital. in SC1 you need the academy which is made after u get ur expo cc up and make second rax & gaz, so all ins cant be done with perfect scouting info like the 2rax in sc2, thus they maintain more risk and are tried less often.
Are you kidding me? Yeah, sure lets just make the one race that can't keep up already macro wise and nerf the macro mechanic EVEN MORE. Theres nothing OP about punishing someone who blindly 14 hatches and it's stupid to expect a free expansion like that. If anything, without the 2 rax rush, Zerg's ability to expand that fast would be OP because as I stated above, anytime I try to fast expo I lose unless I 2 rax expand.
Nerfing Orbitals is not even an option. The only reason so many Terrans timing attack, rush, and cheese is because if the game goes in to a macro mode good luck getting any advantage unless you do some major damage with harassment. This is a big reason why I am considering switching races, because I love the Terran mechanics and units but overall I like to macro and not being able to do so on an even play field without my opponent messing up is very discouraging.
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On November 24 2010 05:07 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:06 xarthaz wrote:
The solution is more requirements to orbital. in SC1 you need the academy which is made after u get ur expo cc up and make second rax & gaz, so all ins cant be done with perfect scouting info like the 2rax in sc2, thus they maintain more risk and are tried less often. The solution isn't nerf T, it's buff T's late game so they aren't desperate to win early. It's not even like this all in 2 rax stuff works all that often, even in the GSL it's only working about 50% of the time.
Actually its to do both. Terran early game is fine. Its basically the early mid game thats the problem esp for toss. There are some very powerful allins that are impossible to stop even when scouted. See the Genius game yesterday to see one of these. He would have lost that game if his opponent hadnt made the mistake of going up the ramp too soon. Something needs to be done about these while at the same time buffing terran late game.
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On November 24 2010 05:14 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:07 DooMDash wrote:On November 24 2010 05:06 xarthaz wrote:
The solution is more requirements to orbital. in SC1 you need the academy which is made after u get ur expo cc up and make second rax & gaz, so all ins cant be done with perfect scouting info like the 2rax in sc2, thus they maintain more risk and are tried less often. The solution isn't nerf T, it's buff T's late game so they aren't desperate to win early. It's not even like this all in 2 rax stuff works all that often, even in the GSL it's only working about 50% of the time. Actually its to do both. Terran early game is fine. Its basically the early mid game thats the problem esp for toss. There are some very powerful allins that are impossible to stop even when scouted. See the Genius game yesterday to see one of these. He would have lost that game if his opponent hadnt made the mistake of going up the ramp too soon. Something needs to be done about these while at the same time buffing terran late game.
I wouldn't say the solution is to nerf T's early mid so much as to fix P's early game being so fragile, but yeah, if this all in does turn out to be too powerful (right now it's not doing all that great) then it should obviously be nerfed at the same time as making Terran late game more playable.
(And yeah, I was extremely surprised that Libero managed to lose that... no idea why he pushed out of range of his tanks)
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On November 24 2010 05:08 ckw wrote:I have heard so many complaints when I do this rush against greedy Zergs but the only response I can give is, hey, if I 14 CC are you really going to just sit there and watch? No, you'r gunna punish me so it's only fair that Zergs don't just get a free expansion. Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:06 xarthaz wrote:
The solution is more requirements to orbital. in SC1 you need the academy which is made after u get ur expo cc up and make second rax & gaz, so all ins cant be done with perfect scouting info like the 2rax in sc2, thus they maintain more risk and are tried less often. Are you kidding me? Yeah, sure lets just make the one race that can't keep up already macro wise and nerf the macro mechanic EVEN MORE. Theres nothing OP about punishing someone who blindly 14 hatches and it's stupid to expect a free expansion like that. If anything, without the 2 rax rush, Zerg's ability to expand that fast would be OP because as I stated above, anytime I try to fast expo I lose unless I 2 rax expand. Nerfing Orbitals is not even an option. The only reason so many Terrans timing attack, rush, and cheese is because if the game goes in to a macro mode good luck getting any advantage unless you do some major damage with harassment. This is a big reason why I am considering switching races, because I love the Terran mechanics and units but overall I like to macro and not being able to do so on an even play field without my opponent messing up is very discouraging.
The problem is you're justifying the rush by implying it's only good against 14 hatch. Against pool first the build is almost as good; that's where the problem lies. The game plays out very differently if the zerg opens pool first, but it doesn't suddenly stop the 2 rax build in its tracks unless the terran doesn't have a follow through and just suicides into lings.
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On November 24 2010 05:07 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:06 xarthaz wrote:
The solution is more requirements to orbital. in SC1 you need the academy which is made after u get ur expo cc up and make second rax & gaz, so all ins cant be done with perfect scouting info like the 2rax in sc2, thus they maintain more risk and are tried less often. The solution isn't nerf T, it's buff T's late game so they aren't desperate to win early. It's not even like this all in 2 rax stuff works all that often, even in the GSL it's only working about 50% of the time.
There are two fundamental flaws to your understanding of the game here.
1) any strategy that works even 51% of the time is a winning strategy. Many poker pros could explain this simple concept to you.
The other problem is you're considering 14 hatch as some sort of advantage.
There is no economic advantage to 14 hatch, it is purely positional. Your economic advantage won't kick in for another 5 min when you have 2 queens spamming spawn larva. By that time it is completely feasible for a terran to have his expo set up as well and we're back to square 1.
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Seriosly people need to stop this 14 hatch is countered by 2 rax BS.
1) Where did you all get 14 hatch from, NONE of the GSL games in discussions had 14 hatch, they were all 15 hatch, but that is just a side note.
2) The push comes AFTER your expansion is up or going up weather you hatch or pool first.
3) pool/gas first has advantage of having ling speed/early blings, BUT does not have creep and spines and queens at natural. So it a hard call what is worse... I would take creep/spines and queens to ling speed and couple of blings.
4) IT is hardly unstoppable so far it has been stoped several times just fine, in fact if it is stoped it is auto loss for t.
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On November 24 2010 02:47 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 01:18 rampaeg wrote:
Maybe blizzard should just make a better map pool with more maps like Shakuras...that would solve a lot of issues. YEAH GUY! Would you also suggest we use scrap station multiple times in ZvT series? That'd be just splendid.
Im just saying that Terran 2 rax counter to Zerg FE is much less viable on a larger map like Shakuras, and suggesting that maybe the problems people are having with the Metagame are somewhat due to maps, not all balance issues. I think that's a factor that should be explored more instead of nerfing and buffing away to later realize it had to do with the map pool. Just a thought I was having..
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I have to say that I am sick of this trend as a T player, I despise having to do this 2 rax no gas pressure, its very one dimensional and provides very one sided games. Unfortunetaly, until blizz patches the T late game T will not stop doing this. I miss the BW days where TvZ was interesting because the tank was very strong and the Z's marine killer was similair to a siege tank as it had to sacrifice movement for insane dmg.
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On November 24 2010 05:22 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:07 DooMDash wrote:On November 24 2010 05:06 xarthaz wrote:
The solution is more requirements to orbital. in SC1 you need the academy which is made after u get ur expo cc up and make second rax & gaz, so all ins cant be done with perfect scouting info like the 2rax in sc2, thus they maintain more risk and are tried less often. The solution isn't nerf T, it's buff T's late game so they aren't desperate to win early. It's not even like this all in 2 rax stuff works all that often, even in the GSL it's only working about 50% of the time. There are two fundamental flaws to your understanding of the game here. 1) any strategy that works even 51% of the time is a winning strategy. Many poker pros could explain this simple concept to you. The other problem is you're considering 14 hatch as some sort of advantage. There is no economic advantage to 14 hatch, it is purely positional. Your economic advantage won't kick in for another 5 min when you have 2 queens spamming spawn larva. By that time it is completely feasible for a terran to have his expo set up as well and we're back to square 1.
Well until we figure out the exact numbers of how successful this 2 rax rush is, we won't know if #1 is correct.
I consider 14 hatch an advantage, just like I consider being a base up in general an advantage. 14 hatch is pretty safe, and even relatively safe against these all in strats. Foxer with 400 APM godly marine micro , with 15+ scvs, and ton of marines couldn't even beat a blind 14 hatch in the GSL finals... I'd call that pretty safe.
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On November 24 2010 05:22 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:07 DooMDash wrote:On November 24 2010 05:06 xarthaz wrote:
The solution is more requirements to orbital. in SC1 you need the academy which is made after u get ur expo cc up and make second rax & gaz, so all ins cant be done with perfect scouting info like the 2rax in sc2, thus they maintain more risk and are tried less often. The solution isn't nerf T, it's buff T's late game so they aren't desperate to win early. It's not even like this all in 2 rax stuff works all that often, even in the GSL it's only working about 50% of the time. There are two fundamental flaws to your understanding of the game here. 1) any strategy that works even 51% of the time is a winning strategy. Many poker pros could explain this simple concept to you. The other problem is you're considering 14 hatch as some sort of advantage. There is no economic advantage to 14 hatch, it is purely positional. Your economic advantage won't kick in for another 5 min when you have 2 queens spamming spawn larva. By that time it is completely feasible for a terran to have his expo set up as well and we're back to square 1.
Hmm how do you determine 51% from? Overall games on the ladder? Then 4 gate is best strat ever since on the ladder it probably has 70% win rate.
14 hatch does have economic advantage, stop this nonsense. It becomes clear very quickly way before 2 queens because you can use 1 larva to place one spine and be safer then with 3 sets of lings (which take 150 minerals, 3 larva and 100/100 research to be of any use) So that 3-4 marine/2 scv push does not force you to make 12 slow lings just not to die.
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Also if this 2 rax is as popular as everyone says, all Z's in korea must have abandoned the 14 hatch build since Z is beating T by a pretty solid margin in korea.
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On November 24 2010 05:32 DooMDash wrote:
Also if this 2 rax is as popular as everyone says, all Z's in korea must have abandoned the 14 hatch build since Z is beating T by a pretty solid margin in korea.
Unless it's steppes or something a well played zerg should defend 2rax allin while fast expanding.
Unless you did something dumb like make drones when the pool is finished.
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I think people are a little bit brain-washed by Artosis's biased commentary. He's obviously a Zerg player and makes it sound like Zerg always has problems and T should always be winning because how powerful their desperate all ins are.
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On November 24 2010 05:41 DooMDash wrote:
I think people are a little bit brain-washed by Artosis's biased commentary. He's obviously a Zerg player and makes it sound like Zerg always has problems and T should always be winning because how powerful their desperate all in is.
The guy will stop crying and be biased when he wins 1st place. Which will never happen since he doesn't even break through preliminaries. should just use jason lee + idra to replace him. Idras biased as hell but he barely speaks so it balances out.
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EPT
