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On November 24 2010 03:02 Coolcatqt wrote:
thanks for trying bronze leaguer :p but zerg cant make every building and tech at once
I'm not a bronze leaguer (2200+ diamond). The terrans doing this build are on 1 base. The zergs are on 2 base. 3 spinecrawlers + lings --> some guy (I responded to him) said that the terran will scan and will not attack (+ macro up, LOL). Result: zerg on 2 base, terran on 1 base. Terran can keep on playing on 1 base but if the terran takes his natural, then there is a small window for the zerg to drone drone drone + expand.
There is a reason why top korean terrans are doing these kind of builds. I'm saying this for a very long time: a good zerg is not beatable without these kind of "allinstuff". The only reason why terrans were winning before the patch was because of very strong harass. With the roach range changed (bye hellion rush) and the reaper heavy nerfed, the only other harass options are banshees (you die vs a good zerg that builds 3 queens) and hellion drop (good placed overlords and your drop will fail).
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On November 24 2010 02:13 Pewt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 02:10 AnAngryDingo wrote:
and now, either due to most terrans being unskilled/uncreative/simply lazy, or simply not feeling that they can win a macro game against zerg (which may honestly be the case, but this signals a much deeper balance problem in the game) they have come up with this, a new way to kill or cripple the zerg before the 10 minute mark. I'm more concerned that someone like RainBow feels that he needs to use what is basically a coinflip strategy against a no-name Zerg to win. Time will tell I guess. Also, we see many of the same players macro really well in TvT and decently in TvP (TvP is sort of halfway between TvZ and TvT right now) so I wouldn't say it's because players simply are bad at macro or anything. Obviously there are some awful players as well.
Exactly! Why should someone with the skill level of him feel the need to do this to a no-name Zerg? Round of 64 has been extremely boring to watch, the TvZs that is. The blind baneling nest doesn't sound like a bad idea against T. "it slows down my lair". QQ more. P blindly opens robo to not lose to flying DT's delaying our Charge and Templar tech. Why shouldn't y'all (the Zergs) have to do the same?
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I don't see why people recommend banelings, when while certainly obtainable faster, they aren't as effective as speedlings except against SCVs. With a player with good micro, they can split their marines and scv up, leaving the zerg a hell of a time with their banes. I am just supposing this that scenario though, and haven't seen all GSL games - does someone go banelings vs it or something? Other high level games with baneling vs marine-scv rush?
Personally I scout with 10th drone, and with that, I can see when they are scouting, and what they are building quite easily in time to figure if hatch first is a good option or not. People are just cutting corners by not scouting, which certainly can give a benefit, but it can cost huge problems also.
I consider the + Show Spoiler + to be a good example of how a later scout can really be very detrimental (although maybe he thought he could hold 14 hatch regardless of the opponent build)
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"Terran can't macro up against Zerg!!!!!" versus "Zerg can't defend or they're a BAJILLION behind!!!!"
QQ cage match.
Seriously, Zerg, if you fast expand against a rush build, plant some fucking statics and then power. When Protoss players FE, they don't bitch about needing Photon Cannons...
And Terran whiners, perhaps if you didn't camp until Zerg is two bases ahead and used your damn overpowered buildings on the battlefield (Planetary Fortress, Bunker, flying raxes aka the 150 mineral permanent mobile Terran force field) you'd have an easier time in a macro game...
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On November 24 2010 03:15 Xapti wrote:I don't see why people recommend banelings, when while certainly obtainable faster, they aren't as effective as speedlings except against SCVs. With a player with good micro, they can split their marines and scv up, leaving the zerg a hell of a time with their banes. I am just supposing this that scenario though, and haven't seen all GSL games - does someone go banelings vs it or something? Other high level games with baneling vs marine-scv rush? Personally I scout with 10th drone, and with that, I can see when they are scouting, and what they are building quite easily in time to figure if hatch first is a good option or not. People are just cutting corners by not scouting, which certainly can give a benefit, but it can cost huge problems also. I consider the + Show Spoiler + to be a good example of how a later scout can really be very detrimental (although maybe he thought he could hold 14 hatch regardless of the opponent build) RainbOw's opponent used banelings and + Show Spoiler +absolutely demolished RainbOw. Marine micro isn't very good against creep banes if they don't have stim, which this push doesn't. More importantly, if the banes kill the SCVs then this push will fail regardless.
edit: I should clarify that the banelings don't stop the initial poke unless it comes later circa HayprO game 1, spines do. Banelings just stop the all in that T has basically committed to by the point that they are Marine/SCV poking.
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~2000 diamond, and this build has been basically every ZvT I've played the past few days.
I think you need to go 14 pool/15-18 hatch in every game against T, and blindly build a baneling nest if you scout 2 rax. While building a baneling nest early hurts your eco if they don't rush, it's better than blindly spamming lings IMO. Banelings are so important to stopping this build, since they efficiently give you the lead, other builds can possibly stop it but end up costing you too much. You can sit at your base with one spine crawler and 6 lings, and once your scouting ling sees the push you can just turn those lings in your base into banes and make more lings. The baneling creation time is fast enough to make this pretty easy. The only problem is that you will need to have stockpiled a little gas in order to do this.
The transition from 2rax into banshee shoudn't be too much of a problem if you scout well. The sneaky 2rax->14CC transition is clever, but you should be able to catch up economically just by powering drones.
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I think 14 hatch will still be viable in a few weeks if not less than that. If you see no gas and no expansion it's pretty obvious they are committed to this completely all-in attack. Even if you don't see an expansion you can pretty safely assume they are doing this build if you see no gas (at least right now since it's all the rage). All you have to do is stop it and you win, and there are definitely ways to stop this build. I'd say before GSL3 is over Zerg will be stopping this build pretty much every time.
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I guess things like these are easier than improving your overall game (I really don't buy the whole "it's necessary" thing, Zerg is not dominating as hard as people are suggesting). Personally I expand slightly later anyways, I consider it a flaw in my play which needs to be fixed, but it certainly helps when running into these. As such I don't mind much, though I do hope SC2 will move past the whole "must end it in 10 minutes using the flavor of the month build" thing soon, because.. well it's kind of boring.
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On November 24 2010 03:32 trias_e wrote:
~2000 diamond, and this build has been basically every ZvT I've played the past few days.
I think you need to go 14 pool/15-18 hatch in every game against T, and blindly build a baneling nest if you scout 2 rax. While building a baneling nest early hurts your eco if they don't rush, it's better than blindly spamming lings IMO. Banelings are so important to stopping this build, since they efficiently give you the lead, other builds can possibly stop it but end up costing you too much. You can sit at your base with one spine crawler and 6 lings, and once your scouting ling sees the push you can just turn those lings in your base into banes and make more lings. The baneling creation time is fast enough to make this pretty easy. The only problem is that you will need to have stockpiled a little gas in order to do this.
The transition from 2rax into banshee shoudn't be too much of a problem if you scout well. The sneaky 2rax->14CC transition is clever, but you should be able to catch up economically just by powering drones.
The bling nest will hurt in the beginning but at least it is not wasted. You will probably build a baneling nest in every ZvT at some point and although it hurts your economy early it's not a complete waste after the 5 minute mark.
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HayprO played it wrong because he didn't constantly scout. The trouble with facing the 2 barracks opening on BS is that they can easily move those 2 barracks into the choke on the right of the their natural expo, so you have no idea if they're going to pressure or expo you if you're not scouting.
You don't go banelings because if they pressure you early instead of that later push which bitbybit did, you're going ot be 150 minerals down. You just need to play adapt to the situation and play it as if it's a 4gate, just a lot earlier/later.
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It wasn't that long ago that a lot of people thought that Zergs could FE for free and there was nothing Terrans could do about it and how boring that was etc. With no patch assist, Terran pros figured something out.
As much success as Terrans are having punishing Zerg FE's in the 1st round of the GSL I've also seen Zergs hold it off and win. I'm confident they'll figure it out. The strategic back-and-forth is far from boring to me. The history of any sport is full of this kind of stuff and it's really interesting.
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On November 24 2010 03:43 eatpraylove wrote:
It wasn't that long ago that a lot of people thought that Zergs could FE for free and there was nothing Terrans could do about it and how boring that was etc. With no patch assist, Terran pros figured something out.
As much success as Terrans are having punishing Zerg FE's in the 1st round of the GSL I've also seen Zergs hold it off and win. I'm confident they'll figure it out. The strategic back-and-forth is far from boring to me. The history of any sport is full of this kind of stuff and it's really interesting.
What are you talking about? You mean where Zerg FEd and suddenly there were like 50 reapers in their base? Oh, you mean the time, where there was nothing like Supply -> Rax where fast expanding Zergs often found like 7 raxes floating over their base.. Now I get it.
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It's pretty scary that ZvT evolves in short,boring link.
Terran finds great all-in->New strats weaken the all-in,but are not 100% proof->Patch comes out->Macro games again happen->Terran finds great all-in
This looks like Terrans infest planets,takeover the living creatures and use them in their army,while Zerg thrives in huge cities made out of skyscrapers.
It should be like
Macro games->Zerg/Terran finds new exciting strat->Macro games are full of improvisation and emotion->Terran/Zerg finds the counter->Macro games with less bland game play->Go again like this for three times->ZvT is great matchup->Expansion comes out-> Yeah You guessed right. Macro games.
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On November 23 2010 17:36 busdriver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 17:25 Epoch wrote:
14 hatch is nonsense and I'm glad terrans found ways to punish it. For a while all zergs were doing is 14 hatch, being completely safe, make like 2 zerglings a million drones. Hatch zlings and banelings when terran pushes out, because they have to push or they will lose, as it is their responsibility to be the aggressor since their late game sucks. And then BAM, wipe your entire army if u make 1 micro mistake. Once that first armies gone its game over. Now that was lame.
Now zergs have to maybe make a spawning pool first occasionally, and when they make that spawning pool they need to produce units for defense. Sounds good 2 me. I know the races are different, but as protoss if I were to Nexus before gateway or forge I'd get rolfstomped everytime. If I see a terran CC go down at 15 I immediately send my first few units to force it to at least lift off.
The only difference is Toss and Terran can last for-fucking-ever on one base, zerg absolutely can not be on even bases.
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I can definetely say i don't like the direction ZvT is heading. I just got 2 rax rushed with 4 scvs pulled, bunker rushed, and then switched into 2 port cloaked banshees.
All in the same game. -_-
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i think the key to terrans "mass marine sprinkle of tank" style of play is going to be burrowed banelings and baneling speed after lair is done comboed by mass mass creep spread.
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On November 24 2010 03:32 schimmetje wrote:
I guess things like these are easier than improving your overall game (I really don't buy the whole "it's necessary" thing, Zerg is not dominating as hard as people are suggesting). Personally I expand slightly later anyways, I consider it a flaw in my play which needs to be fixed, but it certainly helps when running into these. As such I don't mind much, though I do hope SC2 will move past the whole "must end it in 10 minutes using the flavor of the month build" thing soon, because.. well it's kind of boring. I would buy this if it were just nobodies doing these builds, but people like RainbOw are not exactly newbies who don't know how to macro (and you'll notice many of the same players who 1base all in every TvZ play very strong macro games in TvT. TvP is sort of 50/50). As I said earlier, the fact that players like RainbOw feel it's necessary to use a coinflip all in build to beat no names is worrying (even on maps like Shakuras which are strongly biased towards macro and against 1base play).
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14 hatch is not supposed to be a safe build, so don't argue like its almost imbalanced when other races try to punish it. I agree zergs need to take an earlier expansion than other races but 14 hatchery is an extremely early expansion that allows zergs to gain an economical edge quickly if unharrassed. This kind of reward will and should be risky play.
Solution: Don't 14 hatch if you can't take the heat or can't understand that its supposed to be risky.
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On November 24 2010 03:54 Karthane wrote:
I can definetely say i don't like the direction ZvT is heading. I just got 2 rax rushed with 4 scvs pulled, bunker rushed, and then switched into 2 port cloaked banshees.
All in the same game. -_-
seen this alot too but it only kills you the first time.
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On November 24 2010 03:54 Karthane wrote:
I can definetely say i don't like the direction ZvT is heading. I just got 2 rax rushed with 4 scvs pulled, bunker rushed, and then switched into 2 port cloaked banshees.
All in the same game. -_-
i do this all the time vs 14hatch. 2rax rine, pressure into 2 starport banhsee. has worked almost 100%. sometimes the rines are enough to win.
there are few times when you are happy to see a banelings nest, this is sucha situation.
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EPT
