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On November 24 2010 02:10 AnAngryDingo wrote:
and now, either due to most terrans being unskilled/uncreative/simply lazy, or simply not feeling that they can win a macro game against zerg (which may honestly be the case, but this signals a much deeper balance problem in the game) they have come up with this, a new way to kill or cripple the zerg before the 10 minute mark. I'm more concerned that someone like RainBow feels that he needs to use what is basically a coinflip strategy against a no-name Zerg to win. Time will tell I guess. Also, we see many of the same players macro really well in TvT and decently in TvP (TvP is sort of halfway between TvZ and TvT right now) so I wouldn't say it's because players simply are bad at macro or anything. Obviously there are some awful players as well.
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So - Foxer used a similiar build which Nestea was able to hold of. That was ~1week ago.
The zerg players say that the build from Foxer was unrefined (/badly executed).
So that means the zerg players werent able to find a solution in 1 week to a strong build?
Where's the problem with that?
And just think about it - imagine you're a top Zerg competing in the GSL but havent played yet. You found a way to easily block the mentioned Terran strategy thanks to the help of you teammates.
Why would you go around and tell everyone? So your Terran opponent in GSL doesnt do it, because he knows you're able to hold it off?
Imho it's way to early to cry "imbalance" "patch needed". When nothing has changed in a month I would start considering that there really is a problem.
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On November 23 2010 16:27 sqrt wrote:
The problem may be that Zerg on two bases is strong as hell, especially after saturation. No matter how good you are, you do not want to go into a macro game with Zerg, too risky. However I believe that this will be the bane of T in GSL 3, Zerg's will know how to crack this thing by the Ro 16 with little to no problem.
Yes, but the same can be true for the other two races on two bases (in fact, moreso). A two base T or P still has a slight advantage over a two base Z. Granted, lair tech and 2-base gives the Zerg tools to obtain map control to secure a 3rd (sometimes), but well-timed aggression from either races can stymie that.
I think the real issue at hand is why Terran early all-in aggression is becoming so prevalent vZ and vP. It's starting to make it seem like Terrans are getting desperate or have no confidence in a long game with Protoss and Zerg.
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If you scout a 15 CC build you can easily outmacro him and get a third base. people don't seem to get this, zergs economy grows a lot faster than terran, since their scv production is limited and mules aren't quite so great as everybody says.
i can't believe I'm trying to argue in favour of terran. People sure overreact a lot. 1 week ago it was all about how ridiculously impossible it was to win zvt because of zergs imba macro mechanic. Now terrans imba macro mechanic makes it impossible for zerg to win.
1 base zerg doesn't work like in BW. You still need 2 hatcheries to produce as much as you want and not having an expansion slows your economy a lot so you're left with allin builds.
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On November 24 2010 01:43 Asshat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 01:28 Noocta wrote:
Sigh....
I know Terran have lot of difficulty pass early game against zerg, but this kind of push are just depressing.
ZvT, in the ( small ) history of Starcraft 2, is all about terran trying to find a new timng push to win instantly again and again and again... As long as T continues as a gain decisive advantage/win early or don't win at all race, that's how it's going to be unfortunately. I can't remember the last time a terran beat an accomplished zerg without doing either of those. It's almost like playing terran is that kind of game where you have X time to complete all your objectives, you can do a few things here and there to increase the time you have, but when time runs out, game over. Protoss being the "rookie" difficulty level of that game, and Zerg being the "insanity" difficulty.
Looking through your post history I am unable to find a single post that is not a completely exaggerated whine. Do you ever say anything positive or do anything but complain in your day to day life?
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Why is it P and T are now complaining about Zerg late-game strength when it hasn't been buffed in the last 6 patches? In fact, the Ultralisk splash nerf made the late-game worse. T and P's beat Zerg late-game time and time again. The only thing that was buffed was Roaches getting +1 range. That's it. And now suddenly late-game Zerg is impossible to beat?
Bullshit. Terran had training wheels when playing Zergs, and now that they are off, they can't get easy wins anymore. A 200/200 Terran army can't be beat by a Zerg 200/200 army, and is hardly even dented. Terran players won tournaments left and right for months after release, and now you're telling me after the game's most counter-able unit got 1 extra range, the race is now impossible to beat?
That's just fucking embarrassing. I don't see any pros complaining. It's only the lonely nobodies who can't get to the top of Gold League.
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I've been trying to think of a possible reaction to the SCV/Marine All-in for a while, and I at least have the start of one.
The strength of the build is having the MULE, for sure, but also is in that the Terran user is able to constantly build marines out of the barracks that have already been built with the economy remaining (MULEs and a few SCVs). In addition, the prospect of having the larger natural to protect is difficult.
So, let's imagine the following scenario (which is Liquid'Haypro v. BitbybitPrime.we), where there are about 12 SCVs and 10 Marines (with more being rallied), and Terran has enough economy to support 4 rax. Haypro at this point had about 30 drones, 2 hatch, 2 queen, 1 spine crawler and ~10ish zerglings on the way. As we saw in the matchup last night, Bitbybit cleaned house.
Here is what I think a possible reaction could be. After the 14 hatch, get the spawning pool as quickly as possible. By this time, you should have scouted and should know if there is an all-in coming. Instead of getting more drones and an extra queen, throw down 2-3 spine crawlers in your main. Mass produce zerglings with your larvae, not drones.
Now here is the key moment, especially on maps with a small choke into the natural. You need to be sure to scout when Terran is moving out, and at that moment move your zerglings out to pass by them without attacking (along an alternate path). Kill their remaining SCVs, MULEs, and stop reinforcements from the 4 rax. They, of course, will destroy your natural, but simply pull all your drones back to your main. Now, when he moves into your main, not only is his base being demolished, but you have 2-3 spine crawlers, ~25 drones, and as many zerglings as you could scare up since you sent your main force out. All you have to do is make sure your hatch doesnt fall, and you will be in good shape.
So I know this idea is a bit unrefined, but I believe that it could work as an appropriate response, as it both has a way of denying MULE usage and also you get the benefit of not having to defend two bases. Please give feedback, from both sides of the fence.
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On November 24 2010 02:32 AlphaFerg wrote:
I've been trying to think of a possible reaction to the SCV/Marine All-in for a while, and I at least have the start of one.
The strength of the build is having the MULE, for sure, but also is in that the Terran user is able to constantly build marines out of the barracks that have already been built with the economy remaining (MULEs and a few SCVs). In addition, the prospect of having the larger natural to protect is difficult.
So, let's imagine the following scenario (which is Liquid'Haypro v. BitbybitPrime.we), where there are about 12 SCVs and 10 Marines (with more being rallied), and Terran has enough economy to support 4 rax. Haypro at this point had about 30 drones, 2 hatch, 2 queen, 1 spine crawler and ~10ish zerglings on the way. As we saw in the matchup last night, Bitbybit cleaned house.
Here is what I think a possible reaction could be. After the 14 hatch, get the spawning pool as quickly as possible. By this time, you should have scouted and should know if there is an all-in coming. Instead of getting more drones and an extra queen, throw down 2-3 spine crawlers in your main. Mass produce zerglings with your larvae, not drones.
Now here is the key moment, especially on maps with a small choke into the natural. You need to be sure to scout when Terran is moving out, and at that moment move your zerglings out to pass by them without attacking (along an alternate path). Kill their remaining SCVs, MULEs, and stop reinforcements from the 4 rax. They, of course, will destroy your natural, but simply pull all your drones back to your main. Now, when he moves into your main, not only is his base being demolished, but you have 2-3 spine crawlers, ~25 drones, and as many zerglings as you could scare up since you sent your main force out. All you have to do is make sure your hatch doesnt fall, and you will be in good shape.
So I know this idea is a bit unrefined, but I believe that it could work as an appropriate response, as it both has a way of denying MULE usage and also you get the benefit of not having to defend two bases. Please give feedback, from both sides of the fence.
The whole point is that the terran will SCAN before moving out, if you got 3 spines and a ton of zerglings, they simply sit in their base and macro up.
As a zerg, you cannot scout if they are doing an all in or not, simply by having 2 barracks in the wall.
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On November 24 2010 02:39 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 02:32 AlphaFerg wrote:
I've been trying to think of a possible reaction to the SCV/Marine All-in for a while, and I at least have the start of one.
The strength of the build is having the MULE, for sure, but also is in that the Terran user is able to constantly build marines out of the barracks that have already been built with the economy remaining (MULEs and a few SCVs). In addition, the prospect of having the larger natural to protect is difficult.
So, let's imagine the following scenario (which is Liquid'Haypro v. BitbybitPrime.we), where there are about 12 SCVs and 10 Marines (with more being rallied), and Terran has enough economy to support 4 rax. Haypro at this point had about 30 drones, 2 hatch, 2 queen, 1 spine crawler and ~10ish zerglings on the way. As we saw in the matchup last night, Bitbybit cleaned house.
Here is what I think a possible reaction could be. After the 14 hatch, get the spawning pool as quickly as possible. By this time, you should have scouted and should know if there is an all-in coming. Instead of getting more drones and an extra queen, throw down 2-3 spine crawlers in your main. Mass produce zerglings with your larvae, not drones.
Now here is the key moment, especially on maps with a small choke into the natural. You need to be sure to scout when Terran is moving out, and at that moment move your zerglings out to pass by them without attacking (along an alternate path). Kill their remaining SCVs, MULEs, and stop reinforcements from the 4 rax. They, of course, will destroy your natural, but simply pull all your drones back to your main. Now, when he moves into your main, not only is his base being demolished, but you have 2-3 spine crawlers, ~25 drones, and as many zerglings as you could scare up since you sent your main force out. All you have to do is make sure your hatch doesnt fall, and you will be in good shape.
So I know this idea is a bit unrefined, but I believe that it could work as an appropriate response, as it both has a way of denying MULE usage and also you get the benefit of not having to defend two bases. Please give feedback, from both sides of the fence. The whole point is that the terran will SCAN before moving out, if you got 3 spines and a ton of zerglings, they simply sit in their base and macro up. As a zerg, you cannot scout if they are doing an all in or not, simply by having 2 barracks in the wall.
Exactly this. A lot of terrans on ladder just blindly commit to the all-in, but the smart way to do this is to scan. You lose one mule and had to cut 1-2 SCVs, but if the Zerg prepared, then he cut 10+ drones. That's enough to enter the midgame with a very large advantage.
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On November 24 2010 02:32 Grimjim wrote:
Why is it P and T are now complaining about Zerg late-game strength when it hasn't been buffed in the last 6 patches? In fact, the Ultralisk splash nerf made the late-game worse. T and P's beat Zerg late-game time and time again. The only thing that was buffed was Roaches getting +1 range. That's it. And now suddenly late-game Zerg is impossible to beat?
Bullshit. Terran had training wheels when playing Zergs, and now that they are off, they can't get easy wins anymore. A 200/200 Terran army can't be beat by a Zerg 200/200 army, and is hardly even dented. Terran players won tournaments left and right for months after release, and now you're telling me after the game's most counter-able unit got 1 extra range, the race is now impossible to beat?
That's just fucking embarrassing. I don't see any pros complaining. It's only the lonely nobodies who can't get to the top of Gold League.
Terra and Toss got nerved tho... which is basicly the same as buffing Zerg. Also how can you say that Zerg late game has not been buffed when Roach range +1 made them almost twice as good as they were before. Now more roaches can attack a target at once, they can attack over forcefields and supply depots and hit'n'move is even more effektiv.
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On November 24 2010 02:32 Grimjim wrote:
Why is it P and T are now complaining about Zerg late-game strength when it hasn't been buffed in the last 6 patches? In fact, the Ultralisk splash nerf made the late-game worse. T and P's beat Zerg late-game time and time again. The only thing that was buffed was Roaches getting +1 range. That's it. And now suddenly late-game Zerg is impossible to beat?
Bullshit. Terran had training wheels when playing Zergs, and now that they are off, they can't get easy wins anymore. A 200/200 Terran army can't be beat by a Zerg 200/200 army, and is hardly even dented. Terran players won tournaments left and right for months after release, and now you're telling me after the game's most counter-able unit got 1 extra range, the race is now impossible to beat?
That's just fucking embarrassing. I don't see any pros complaining. It's only the lonely nobodies who can't get to the top of Gold League.
Sorry, but you are either completly blind or I dont know. Of course its not because of buffing Zerg late game. Its because of all those little nerfs to Terran and Protoss that made it so easy for Zerg to 14 hatch or do any kind of fast expand without losing any significant number of drones. And because of this safe economic opening their late game is so scary.. It was always scary, but with all those reaper abuse, Zealot being a threat etc., no one actually saw how brutal is Zerg fully saturated on 3-4 bases being able to tech switch at will..
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On November 24 2010 02:39 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 02:32 AlphaFerg wrote:
I've been trying to think of a possible reaction to the SCV/Marine All-in for a while, and I at least have the start of one.
The strength of the build is having the MULE, for sure, but also is in that the Terran user is able to constantly build marines out of the barracks that have already been built with the economy remaining (MULEs and a few SCVs). In addition, the prospect of having the larger natural to protect is difficult.
So, let's imagine the following scenario (which is Liquid'Haypro v. BitbybitPrime.we), where there are about 12 SCVs and 10 Marines (with more being rallied), and Terran has enough economy to support 4 rax. Haypro at this point had about 30 drones, 2 hatch, 2 queen, 1 spine crawler and ~10ish zerglings on the way. As we saw in the matchup last night, Bitbybit cleaned house.
Here is what I think a possible reaction could be. After the 14 hatch, get the spawning pool as quickly as possible. By this time, you should have scouted and should know if there is an all-in coming. Instead of getting more drones and an extra queen, throw down 2-3 spine crawlers in your main. Mass produce zerglings with your larvae, not drones.
Now here is the key moment, especially on maps with a small choke into the natural. You need to be sure to scout when Terran is moving out, and at that moment move your zerglings out to pass by them without attacking (along an alternate path). Kill their remaining SCVs, MULEs, and stop reinforcements from the 4 rax. They, of course, will destroy your natural, but simply pull all your drones back to your main. Now, when he moves into your main, not only is his base being demolished, but you have 2-3 spine crawlers, ~25 drones, and as many zerglings as you could scare up since you sent your main force out. All you have to do is make sure your hatch doesnt fall, and you will be in good shape.
So I know this idea is a bit unrefined, but I believe that it could work as an appropriate response, as it both has a way of denying MULE usage and also you get the benefit of not having to defend two bases. Please give feedback, from both sides of the fence. The whole point is that the terran will SCAN before moving out, if you got 3 spines and a ton of zerglings, they simply sit in their base and macro up. As a zerg, you cannot scout if they are doing an all in or not, simply by having 2 barracks in the wall.
If i see 2 rax opening, i will have at VERY least 1 spine up. If i see a scan i will put 1-2 more down instantly since he just spent 300. If he doens't move out i have 2 "free" spines. Also the answer you posted had spines started after terran moves out and in his main so no they aren't scanable.
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On November 24 2010 01:18 rampaeg wrote:
Maybe blizzard should just make a better map pool with more maps like Shakuras...that would solve a lot of issues.
YEAH GUY! Would you also suggest we use scrap station multiple times in ZvT series? That'd be just splendid.
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If Terrans felt more confident mid-to-late game this wouldn't happen as its risky. Must be something wrong with the match up when all T's feel that desperate.
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On November 24 2010 02:42 fdsdfg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 02:39 Fa1nT wrote:On November 24 2010 02:32 AlphaFerg wrote:
I've been trying to think of a possible reaction to the SCV/Marine All-in for a while, and I at least have the start of one.
The strength of the build is having the MULE, for sure, but also is in that the Terran user is able to constantly build marines out of the barracks that have already been built with the economy remaining (MULEs and a few SCVs). In addition, the prospect of having the larger natural to protect is difficult.
So, let's imagine the following scenario (which is Liquid'Haypro v. BitbybitPrime.we), where there are about 12 SCVs and 10 Marines (with more being rallied), and Terran has enough economy to support 4 rax. Haypro at this point had about 30 drones, 2 hatch, 2 queen, 1 spine crawler and ~10ish zerglings on the way. As we saw in the matchup last night, Bitbybit cleaned house.
Here is what I think a possible reaction could be. After the 14 hatch, get the spawning pool as quickly as possible. By this time, you should have scouted and should know if there is an all-in coming. Instead of getting more drones and an extra queen, throw down 2-3 spine crawlers in your main. Mass produce zerglings with your larvae, not drones.
Now here is the key moment, especially on maps with a small choke into the natural. You need to be sure to scout when Terran is moving out, and at that moment move your zerglings out to pass by them without attacking (along an alternate path). Kill their remaining SCVs, MULEs, and stop reinforcements from the 4 rax. They, of course, will destroy your natural, but simply pull all your drones back to your main. Now, when he moves into your main, not only is his base being demolished, but you have 2-3 spine crawlers, ~25 drones, and as many zerglings as you could scare up since you sent your main force out. All you have to do is make sure your hatch doesnt fall, and you will be in good shape.
So I know this idea is a bit unrefined, but I believe that it could work as an appropriate response, as it both has a way of denying MULE usage and also you get the benefit of not having to defend two bases. Please give feedback, from both sides of the fence. The whole point is that the terran will SCAN before moving out, if you got 3 spines and a ton of zerglings, they simply sit in their base and macro up. As a zerg, you cannot scout if they are doing an all in or not, simply by having 2 barracks in the wall. Exactly this. A lot of terrans on ladder just blindly commit to the all-in, but the smart way to do this is to scan. You lose one mule and had to cut 1-2 SCVs, but if the Zerg prepared, then he cut 10+ drones. That's enough to enter the midgame with a very large advantage.
Huge exaggeration. It takes 2 spines and 4 roaches to be fairly safe at the moment of moving out for t, since you can realistically make another 5roaches/10 lings. That is hardly cutting 10 drones. As it stands right now zerg HAS to get something to fight helions/4-5 marine pushes as it is. usualy 3-4 roaches or spine + lings. Well if you see 2 rax make 2 spines, at very least you are still dead even 150 for rax vs 150 for spine.
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On November 24 2010 02:10 AnAngryDingo wrote:
i think this is how SC2 has evolved since release.
first terran had 5rax reaper, hellions that could kite all zerg T1 units, etc, to kill or indefinitely cripple the zerg before the 10 minute mark.
then the patch came out, nerfed the reaper, buffed the roach, made it so zerg had a fighting chance if not even became the favorite in the matchup
and now, either due to most terrans being unskilled/uncreative/simply lazy, or simply not feeling that they can win a macro game against zerg (which may honestly be the case, but this signals a much deeper balance problem in the game) they have come up with this, a new way to kill or cripple the zerg before the 10 minute mark.
this will go on until terran's feel that they can win a macro game against the zerg, or blizzard decides to make balance changes.
I just don't get this kind of thinking. Seriously?! Terran have come up with this kind of strategies because they have identified a weakness in hatch first, not because they are bad or whatever you want to think.
I don't like to discuss balance at all, but this kind of thinking some Zerg players have is seriously pissing me off.
If a terran Wins, its because their overpowered piece of s*** race or because they cheesed because they are unskilled. Nope, the Zerg player was never outplayed, how dare someone say that! Its those 1 APM abusive terrans the ones who suck.
If a Zerg wins, its because he was just too good. The race is still UP but since the Zerg player is so skilled that against all odss he managed to beat the OP 1 APM Terran player.
Really this attitude some people have is seriously infuriating. A player loses or wins the game not his race. It also kinda angers me how people are now saying that 14 Hath is necessary for them to have a chance, seriously? Did all that time before the reaper nerf does not count?
People should start playing the game and stop playing balance police
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On November 24 2010 02:39 Fa1nT wrote:
The whole point is that the terran will SCAN before moving out, if you got 3 spines and a ton of zerglings, they simply sit in their base and macro up.
How many times do people have to repeat it? Terran CAN'T macro up against zerg! The zerg will see that the terran is not coming. Response: baneling nest + 3th base and drone drone drone drone.
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Well, as far as GSL3 goes, we haven't seen a "REALLY GOOD" Zerg players losing to this build yet. So, I'm gonna have to wait and see what Kyrix and Check has to say about this (since they are facing Terrans in Ro64) until I can agree with the side that "it's impossible for Zerg to stop this" argument.
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On November 24 2010 02:55 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 02:39 Fa1nT wrote:
The whole point is that the terran will SCAN before moving out, if you got 3 spines and a ton of zerglings, they simply sit in their base and macro up.
How many times do people have to repeat it? Terran CAN'T macro up against zerg! The zerg will see that the terran is not coming. Response: baneling nest + 3th base and drone drone drone drone.
thanks for trying bronze leaguer :p but zerg cant make every building and tech at once
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On November 24 2010 03:02 Coolcatqt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 02:55 Dente wrote:On November 24 2010 02:39 Fa1nT wrote:
The whole point is that the terran will SCAN before moving out, if you got 3 spines and a ton of zerglings, they simply sit in their base and macro up.
How many times do people have to repeat it? Terran CAN'T macro up against zerg! The zerg will see that the terran is not coming. Response: baneling nest + 3th base and drone drone drone drone. thanks for trying bronze leaguer :p but zerg cant make every building and tech at once
Doubt he is bronze leaguer if a person know that zerg need to drone drone drone he is at very least low diamond imho...
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EPT
