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This season's GSL has been very telling of a new VERY strong trend in TvZ. Anyone keeping up in the GSL knows what I'm talking about.
Punishing the 14 Hatch with the 2Rax + Pull SCVs once the OC is done seems very strong. Now, the amount of all-in aggression is semi-risky in that there is absolutely no recovery out of it. However, in my opinion, it seems much stronger than traditional cheese tactics (proxy 2gate/cannon rush/proxy rax) in that the very fact that the option for this cheese exists not only cancels out a possible builder order (14 hatch/14 pool) but also makes the Zerg almost HAVE to get a blind bling nest or mass lings. This is due to the inability to scout a walled in Terran without sacrificing and overlord.
My final thoughts? It is cheese. It is very strong cheese. It makes me worried for possible Zerg openers because cutting off hatchery first puts down a very limited amount of very scoutable openings for Z.
I don't think this becomes an issue of ZOMG NERF TERRAN but rather how can Zerg adapt to handle this opening. The only times I've seen it beat were with a blind baneling nest or blindly pumping a bunch of lings when something feels fishy.
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Need faster banelings is all, not too many just a few to be safe.
That or maybe more crawlers.
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Pull more drones, or try to open with an earlier pool
But considering you are saying this is the new "ZvT" then sir you are VERY mistaken if you count this as cheese.
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On November 23 2010 16:21 n0xi3 wrote:
Pull more drones, or try to open with an earlier pool
But considering you are saying this is the new "ZvT" then sir you are VERY mistaken if you count this as cheese.
I didn't say its the new ZvT. I said it's a trend. And it's not cheese in its traditional sense I suppose. It is a reaction to seeing a 14 hatch. But its hard to call something that requires pulling all your SCVs within the first 5 minutes of a game anything but cheese.
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I've been using this 2 rax play against Zerg on the NA servers for about a month now and it's incredibly effective. Though I don't bring near all my SCVs to try and finish it then and there; merely use it as early aggression. I actually forsee a lot of zerg going normal pool plus speed with a 20 hatch if they don't figure out how to counter it with going 14 hatch. The 14 hatch build has always been an economic gamble and now that Terran have figured out the trick to beating it, the 20 hatch will become the new safe zerg econ build.
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I somewhat enjoy it, still pretty exciting for me seeing the players go in such a micro intensive battles.
The problem may be that Zerg on two bases is strong as hell, especially after saturation. No matter how good you are, you do not want to go into a macro game with Zerg, too risky. However I believe that this will be the bane of T in GSL 3, Zerg's will know how to crack this thing by the Ro 16 with little to no problem.
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It's a terrible trend. It is very difficult for zerg to know how many rax a terran is building. Slow overlords can see enough some times, but on certain maps it is unlikely. Blistering sands for example is almost impossible to scout with slow overlords.
This means that zerg is pretty much 50/50 on what they decide to do when they see terran opening with 2 rax. Do they throw down a baneling nest and pump speedling/baneling/roach in preperation for scv/marine timing attack? If so you certainly may win the game. However, if terran scouts and sees this or just decides to do bluff aggression the zerg is left with an economy in shambles.
Opening 2 rax means zerg needs to cut drones immediately. Terran can expand, build more rax, all in with 2 rax, or tech to whatever. It is all viable if zerg can't scout it and respond properly. Which is another problem with the matchup, if zergs do manage to find out what a terran is doing I feel they can usually stop it pretty easily. It's a fucking mess.
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This deffinately makes ZvT more intense, I play random and I always try to execute this as Terran vs Zerg, however I counter it very easy as Zerg.. dunno guess I am just lucky
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TBH I don't it's all that strong of an opener at this point zergs know it and they know how to counter it. If they get even the slightest tip off that the terran are doing it they can prepare easily for it. Granted some maps this type of build is very strong, but isn't that how it's always been with cheese builds?
I don't see anything ground breaking in this type of terran opener. If anything I think most terrans feel compelled to do this so they don't lose a macro game.
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This reminds me of PvT where you guess wrong you lose.
As Protoss of course, seeing how Terran seems to have a free ticket to midgame, every game.
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it is up to the Zerg to be able to consistently defend it, which I definitely think is possible. this will probably be what separates the good zergs from the bad ones heh.
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Blizz can't even patch it; the metagame is moving waaaaayyyy too fast.
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i don't think it's cheese because it can lead to a decent transition, at worst it puts some presure and forces some money spent on stuff they don't need, at best it wins the game.
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this was done back in GSL Season 2 Finals not exactly "recent"
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Cheese? Sure call it what you will but winning is winning and greedy playstyles should get punished.
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On November 23 2010 16:33 Bosu wrote:
It's a terrible trend. It is very difficult for zerg to know how many rax a terran is building. Slow overlords can see enough some times, but on certain maps it is unlikely. Blistering sands for example is almost impossible to scout with slow overlords.
This means that zerg is pretty much 50/50 on what they decide to do when they see terran opening with 2 rax. Do they throw down a baneling nest and pump speedling/baneling/roach in preperation for scv/marine timing attack? If so you certainly may win the game. However, if terran scouts and sees this or just decides to do bluff aggression the zerg is left with an economy in shambles.
Opening 2 rax means zerg needs to cut drones immediately. Terran can expand, build more rax, all in with 2 rax, or tech to whatever. It is all viable if zerg can't scout it and respond properly. Which is another problem with the matchup, if zergs do manage to find out what a terran is doing I feel they can usually stop it pretty easily. It's a fucking mess.
al they have to do is not 14 hatch?
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On November 23 2010 16:41 Kraz.Del wrote:
Blizz can't even patch it; the metagame is moving waaaaayyyy too fast.
Why patch it?
I'm sure Protoss have a far less winrate against the 2 thor rush or the countless variations of the Marine/Banshee/Raven timing push. Those have been around for a while and nothings been done about that. If it's possible to defend without seriously compromising anything after that, it is fine, in blizzards eyes. For example reapers were nerfed because vs Z, Zerg had a hard time defending, yep, but also came out 'behind' after the harass.
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Of course everyone does the strategy and tactics shown in the gsl finals.
It's quite self explainatory.
I think 14 hatch is kind of nessesary for zerg, it's too bad that so much relies on it, it should be quite standard imo.. We already have to all in or wish for a opponent mistake on like 40% of the maps  Really, I like the maps on every aspect except balance but it's really redicilous now, why aren't the maps big like in sc1? Would fix alot of stuff...
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Last time i have played against this as a Z i had 3 sunkens at my natural (which ofc aswell covered the choke), when i saw the T marching in, i just A-Moved to the ramp, stopped the drones after the ramp had been blocked, and when the rines / SCV´s didnt automatically fire the drones i a-moved again.
With a blocked choke and setting the sunkens to attack the marines it was no great deal after all, but i felt he came a little early (too few marines) anyways.
I play random, and thus i often ask myself if i get stuck in the same situation as a terran player: how many marines are the perfect number to push out? You obv. dont want the 2nd hatch to saturate, but to be able to kill off some lings / sunkens and the drones you need at least 6 rines in my opinion. Is 6 marines a viable number to call it a go in this situation?
Last comment on this being the new TvZ: Its a gamble on both sides. If you scout it as a Z, you can just pull out 2-3 sunkens and some lings and be fine, if it is not scoutet you´re in a terrible, terrible position...
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It's great because fast expanding should always involve an element of risk - Zerg or any other race. And it makes for more intense games.
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EPT
