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On November 24 2010 09:46 PrinceXizor wrote:
now now, no elitism. The last thing Zerg needs is a three groups of which two are elitist. (old school sc1 +2 zergs, always sc2 Zergs, and new sc2 zergs). what i said early in this thread is true. there are alot of LITTLE tricks you can add in to any build seemlessly to defend these attacks ALOT easier. and hell my standard opening rocks this build unless i mess up or the terran is worlds ahead of me micro wise.
It really doesn't affect ZvT that much but (as a zerg player even !) roaches have to get the nerfbat and the hydra has to be boosted in some way (armor or hp).
Terran basically have 2 units (marine tank) that counter the vast majority of the zerg arsenal aside from broodlords and ultras; In some cases if you do it efficiently enough, a terran can out-produce a roach army and sack it with marines alone (of course i'm talking early to mid game not a 50 v 50 scenario, which isn't very likely anyway).
Mutas and hydras are expensive as hell and not nearly as efficient as their cost implies unless you get an astronomical number of them. There is simply no way, as zerg, to efficiently sack the plan of a turtling terran if he's not completely asleep.
Most of this crap would be fixed if maps just were BIGGER. Blizzard consciously made Zerg as a shock and awe harass race but in the meantime made 90% of the maps the size of a shoebox, giving zero real mobility or harass options while giving free reign for noob-friendly "get 5 of them and win instantly" super units.
"Pro" (damn i hate that term) play isn't quite plagued with that because it mostly revolves around early to mid massive aggression but the vast majority of the rest (even in top diamond league) does pretty much nothing micro wise, just camps and camps and camps and camps even longer until they get their "zero micro 2 clicks win ball".
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On November 24 2010 10:06 Shinkugami wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 09:46 PrinceXizor wrote:
now now, no elitism. The last thing Zerg needs is a three groups of which two are elitist. (old school sc1 +2 zergs, always sc2 Zergs, and new sc2 zergs). what i said early in this thread is true. there are alot of LITTLE tricks you can add in to any build seemlessly to defend these attacks ALOT easier. and hell my standard opening rocks this build unless i mess up or the terran is worlds ahead of me micro wise. It really doesn't affect ZvT that much but (as a zerg player even !) roaches have to get the nerfbat and the hydra has to be boosted in some way (armor or hp). Terran basically have 2 units (marine tank) that counter the vast majority of the zerg arsenal aside from broodlords and ultras; In some cases if you do it efficiently enough, a terran can out-produce a roach army and sack it with marines alone (of course i'm talking early to mid game not a 50 v 50 scenario, which isn't very likely anyway). Mutas and hydras are expensive as hell and not nearly as efficient as their cost implies unless you get an astronomical number of them. There is simply no way, as zerg, to efficiently sack the plan of a turtling terran if he's not completely asleep. Most of this crap would be fixed if maps just were BIGGER. Blizzard consciously made Zerg as a shock and awe harass race but in the meantime made 90% of the maps the size of a shoebox, giving zero real mobility or harass options while giving free reign for noob-friendly "get 5 of them and win instantly" super units. "Pro" (damn i hate that term) play isn't quite plagued with that because it mostly revolves around early to mid massive aggression but the vast majority of the rest (even in top diamond league) does pretty much nothing micro wise, just camps and camps and camps and camps even longer until they get their "zero micro 2 clicks win ball".
But the games i see don't just end in mass units like you seem to say. against T i use infestor ling throughout, hydra roach as a small bump in the mid game vs certain stratgies, i get mutas in about 1/3 of games, ultras in every game, brood lords in a 1/3 of games. i have so much diversity in the units i use vs terran and protoss. vs Zerg i use ling, baneling, roach, infestor, hydra, ultra. nothing else. alot less versitility vs Zergs but using 6/9 attacking units is still good. Most of the time the opposing player goes either marine -> marine marauder medivac -> + tanks and thors and vikings or zealot -> stalker sentry -> stalker collosus -> + immortal. vs me. but i chalk that up to the lack fo strategies that exist for non-pro level protosses. since upper level protoss can use air, templar, archons ect very well that you can't see with less than ideal control.
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On November 24 2010 02:50 Deathfairy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 02:42 fdsdfg wrote:On November 24 2010 02:39 Fa1nT wrote:On November 24 2010 02:32 AlphaFerg wrote:
I've been trying to think of a possible reaction to the SCV/Marine All-in for a while, and I at least have the start of one.
The strength of the build is having the MULE, for sure, but also is in that the Terran user is able to constantly build marines out of the barracks that have already been built with the economy remaining (MULEs and a few SCVs). In addition, the prospect of having the larger natural to protect is difficult.
So, let's imagine the following scenario (which is Liquid'Haypro v. BitbybitPrime.we), where there are about 12 SCVs and 10 Marines (with more being rallied), and Terran has enough economy to support 4 rax. Haypro at this point had about 30 drones, 2 hatch, 2 queen, 1 spine crawler and ~10ish zerglings on the way. As we saw in the matchup last night, Bitbybit cleaned house.
Here is what I think a possible reaction could be. After the 14 hatch, get the spawning pool as quickly as possible. By this time, you should have scouted and should know if there is an all-in coming. Instead of getting more drones and an extra queen, throw down 2-3 spine crawlers in your main. Mass produce zerglings with your larvae, not drones.
Now here is the key moment, especially on maps with a small choke into the natural. You need to be sure to scout when Terran is moving out, and at that moment move your zerglings out to pass by them without attacking (along an alternate path). Kill their remaining SCVs, MULEs, and stop reinforcements from the 4 rax. They, of course, will destroy your natural, but simply pull all your drones back to your main. Now, when he moves into your main, not only is his base being demolished, but you have 2-3 spine crawlers, ~25 drones, and as many zerglings as you could scare up since you sent your main force out. All you have to do is make sure your hatch doesnt fall, and you will be in good shape.
So I know this idea is a bit unrefined, but I believe that it could work as an appropriate response, as it both has a way of denying MULE usage and also you get the benefit of not having to defend two bases. Please give feedback, from both sides of the fence. The whole point is that the terran will SCAN before moving out, if you got 3 spines and a ton of zerglings, they simply sit in their base and macro up. As a zerg, you cannot scout if they are doing an all in or not, simply by having 2 barracks in the wall. Exactly this. A lot of terrans on ladder just blindly commit to the all-in, but the smart way to do this is to scan. You lose one mule and had to cut 1-2 SCVs, but if the Zerg prepared, then he cut 10+ drones. That's enough to enter the midgame with a very large advantage. Huge exaggeration. It takes 2 spines and 4 roaches to be fairly safe at the moment of moving out for t, since you can realistically make another 5roaches/10 lings. That is hardly cutting 10 drones. As it stands right now zerg HAS to get something to fight helions/4-5 marine pushes as it is. usualy 3-4 roaches or spine + lings. Well if you see 2 rax make 2 spines, at very least you are still dead even 150 for rax vs 150 for spine.
That's 600 min and 100 gas and 6 larvae. I think it's safe to call that 10 drones.
Also, do NOT compare spines vs barracks. He cannot skip a barracks, and you can easily skip spines. Your spines become useless pretty quickly, and his barracks do not, in fact they will inevitably be built anyway.
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The game is quite bad at the moment ,i'm no balance expert but i'm pretty sure thats not how they intended ZvT to be...
Lets hope it gets better.
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Pre patch weren't Zergs making anywhere from 3-5 spines in their nat for protection? It wasn't a bad thing then and it isn't now. Even if the Terran scans and stays home the spines aren't wasted because as you push the map with creep you can move you'r spines in to an offensive position. What ever happened to putting a little money in defense and not just expecting the other player to ignore you?
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United States7166 Posts
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/9/9f/Spine_Crawler.png/181px-Spine_Crawler.png)
Yes, the scv/marine allin is best handled with spines.. they are so extremely cost effective at stopping it. As others have said banes/roach leave you too behind economically, spines are actually extremely cost effective especially vs marines and scvs because spines have 2 armor and 2 shot marines. The key is you have to bind your spines and manually target marines otherwise theyll hit scvs and that'll be useless, of course you pull drones as well if they brought scvs or if they try to somehow run past your spines. as for spine timing im not conservative, i start the first before my first queen is out in a 14pool 15 hatch build, and before its done i start at least 2 more.
but of course the difficulty is on maps like delta, xel naga, even metalopolis somewhat. well on those maps you gotta get more spines than normal, even like 5. and you gotta use first energy on creep tumors. It sounds stupid and impractical to make that many spines early but it's actually the best way still, you can still pump so many drones and i avoid gas totally for a long time while doing this (cus their gas was also delayed and really the spines can save you vs most everything anyway, banshees would take too long and you can easily get D in time).. and with dual queens pumping larva and all drones on minerals only you can saturate really really fast.
you might think all they gotta do is scan and they wont send scvs but still you can get insane amount of drones quickly, you can fully saturate considerably faster than if you had gone a normal speedling/lair build anyway
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...And by the time you have both bases saturated, zero or very few units and your wonderful spine wall, he has 4 tanks shelling out at your base and 20 marines waiting besides them. GG.
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On November 24 2010 10:44 Shinkugami wrote:
...And by the time you have both bases saturated, zero or very few units and your wonderful spine wall, he has 4 tanks shelling out at your base and 20 marines waiting besides them. GG.
Yeah zerg having 0 units at the 9 minute mark is believable.
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so annoying.
this build is a strong early aggression build. the reason everyone does it is because they arent confident with late game play against zerg and prefer early game play.
lets look at the history of sc2 so far since release.
first there was the popular 5 rax reaper. killing zerg before 10 minutes. why did terrans use this. because it was OP and they didnt feel confident with late game play.
then there was alot of reactor hellion into banshee stuff. why because reaper died out with nerfs. again 1 base early mid game plays. why because terrans arent confident with late game play.
around the same time as reactor hellion was the MASS THOR phase. where all terrans did was get an expo then mass thors and attack. why? because mass thors was insane because at the time it hit just before late game of zerg as ultralisk cavern was building. essentially ending the game before playing against late game zerg. why because terran wasnt confident playing late game zerg.
and now this. 2 rax marine scv all in stuff. why because it shits on zerg against like 5 rax reaper. not as OP but a bitch to hold. why terrans do it. because its effective and they arent confident with late game zerg.
do you see a pattern here? terran players have been using 1 base stuff since release. all with the excuse of hard late game. BUT THEY ARENT EXPLORING LATE GAME PLAYSTYLES!! you cant say late game is impossible if your opening every game with 5 rax reaper/ reactor hellion into banshee/ mass thors for that one time death push/ 2 rax marine stuff
terrans since release have almost all been using these 1 base win or lose builds. i dont think ive seen any pro terran player use a build that even ATTEMPTS to bring the game into late game. yet they are all more then happy to whine about late game.
the reason zerg seems op in late game is because THEY HAVE BEEN PLAYING FOR THE LATE GAME SINCE THE BEGINING!
months of constant playing just to play in the late game have ment zerg knows how to play 20+ minute games with ease.
terran players have been doing 1 base all ins then riding on the advantage they gained from the damage they have done for months now. so its natural for when zerg learn to start surviving these 1 base all ins. and bringing more and more games into the late game for zergs to win more games.
and its time for terran players to adapt.
and they have. just with more 1 base early aggression stuff. and eventually zerg will learn some sort of timing to stop this too. and games will go into the late game. and terrans will still whine.
/rantover.
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On November 24 2010 11:14 TyrantPotato wrote:
so annoying.
this build is a strong early aggression build. the reason everyone does it is because they arent confident with late game play against zerg and prefer early game play.
lets look at the history of sc2 so far since release.
first there was the popular 5 rax reaper. killing zerg before 10 minutes. why did terrans use this. because it was OP and they didnt feel confident with late game play.
then there was alot of reactor hellion into banshee stuff. why because reaper died out with nerfs. again 1 base early mid game plays. why because terrans arent confident with late game play.
around the same time as reactor hellion was the MASS THOR phase. where all terrans did was get an expo then mass thors and attack. why? because mass thors was insane because at the time it hit just before late game of zerg as ultralisk cavern was building. essentially ending the game before playing against late game zerg. why because terran wasnt confident playing late game zerg.
and now this. 2 rax marine scv all in stuff. why because it shits on zerg against like 5 rax reaper. not as OP but a bitch to hold. why terrans do it. because its effective and they arent confident with late game zerg.
do you see a pattern here? terran players have been using 1 base stuff since release. all with the excuse of hard late game. BUT THEY ARENT EXPLORING LATE GAME PLAYSTYLES!! you cant say late game is impossible if your opening every game with 5 rax reaper/ reactor hellion into banshee/ mass thors for that one time death push/ 2 rax marine stuff
terrans since release have almost all been using these 1 base win or lose builds. i dont think ive seen any pro terran player use a build that even ATTEMPTS to bring the game into late game. yet they are all more then happy to whine about late game.
the reason zerg seems op in late game is because THEY HAVE BEEN PLAYING FOR THE LATE GAME SINCE THE BEGINING!
months of constant playing just to play in the late game have ment zerg knows how to play 20+ minute games with ease.
terran players have been doing 1 base all ins then riding on the advantage they gained from the damage they have done for months now. so its natural for when zerg learn to start surviving these 1 base all ins. and bringing more and more games into the late game for zergs to win more games.
and its time for terran players to adapt.
and they have. just with more 1 base early aggression stuff. and eventually zerg will learn some sort of timing to stop this too. and games will go into the late game. and terrans will still whine.
/rantover.
I am pretty sure those players practice playing late game and realize that early aggression gave them a better chance in TvZ so that is what they do in tournaments. Stop capitalizing random phrases in your post. It makes you look like an idiot especially when those phrases are stupid. So you think these guys who play for a living for some reason don't practice late game? How do you know they don't explore late game?? Did you get to see their practice games by some chances?
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On November 24 2010 11:20 positron. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 11:14 TyrantPotato wrote:
so annoying.
this build is a strong early aggression build. the reason everyone does it is because they arent confident with late game play against zerg and prefer early game play.
lets look at the history of sc2 so far since release.
first there was the popular 5 rax reaper. killing zerg before 10 minutes. why did terrans use this. because it was OP and they didnt feel confident with late game play.
then there was alot of reactor hellion into banshee stuff. why because reaper died out with nerfs. again 1 base early mid game plays. why because terrans arent confident with late game play.
around the same time as reactor hellion was the MASS THOR phase. where all terrans did was get an expo then mass thors and attack. why? because mass thors was insane because at the time it hit just before late game of zerg as ultralisk cavern was building. essentially ending the game before playing against late game zerg. why because terran wasnt confident playing late game zerg.
and now this. 2 rax marine scv all in stuff. why because it shits on zerg against like 5 rax reaper. not as OP but a bitch to hold. why terrans do it. because its effective and they arent confident with late game zerg.
do you see a pattern here? terran players have been using 1 base stuff since release. all with the excuse of hard late game. BUT THEY ARENT EXPLORING LATE GAME PLAYSTYLES!! you cant say late game is impossible if your opening every game with 5 rax reaper/ reactor hellion into banshee/ mass thors for that one time death push/ 2 rax marine stuff
terrans since release have almost all been using these 1 base win or lose builds. i dont think ive seen any pro terran player use a build that even ATTEMPTS to bring the game into late game. yet they are all more then happy to whine about late game.
the reason zerg seems op in late game is because THEY HAVE BEEN PLAYING FOR THE LATE GAME SINCE THE BEGINING!
months of constant playing just to play in the late game have ment zerg knows how to play 20+ minute games with ease.
terran players have been doing 1 base all ins then riding on the advantage they gained from the damage they have done for months now. so its natural for when zerg learn to start surviving these 1 base all ins. and bringing more and more games into the late game for zergs to win more games.
and its time for terran players to adapt.
and they have. just with more 1 base early aggression stuff. and eventually zerg will learn some sort of timing to stop this too. and games will go into the late game. and terrans will still whine.
/rantover. So you think these guys who play for a living for some reason don't practice late game? How do you know they don't explore late game?? Did you get to see their practice games by some chances?
They are not exploring it enough then. To say that they have is to say that SC2 is figured out already, and if 1-base timing attack play is the standard TvZ for SC2, it will never become as prevalent as SC1 without a major overhaul.
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On November 24 2010 11:14 TyrantPotato wrote:
so annoying.
this build is a strong early aggression build. the reason everyone does it is because they arent confident with late game play against zerg and prefer early game play.
lets look at the history of sc2 so far since release.
first there was the popular 5 rax reaper. killing zerg before 10 minutes. why did terrans use this. because it was OP and they didnt feel confident with late game play.
then there was alot of reactor hellion into banshee stuff. why because reaper died out with nerfs. again 1 base early mid game plays. why because terrans arent confident with late game play.
around the same time as reactor hellion was the MASS THOR phase. where all terrans did was get an expo then mass thors and attack. why? because mass thors was insane because at the time it hit just before late game of zerg as ultralisk cavern was building. essentially ending the game before playing against late game zerg. why because terran wasnt confident playing late game zerg.
and now this. 2 rax marine scv all in stuff. why because it shits on zerg against like 5 rax reaper. not as OP but a bitch to hold. why terrans do it. because its effective and they arent confident with late game zerg.
do you see a pattern here? terran players have been using 1 base stuff since release. all with the excuse of hard late game. BUT THEY ARENT EXPLORING LATE GAME PLAYSTYLES!! you cant say late game is impossible if your opening every game with 5 rax reaper/ reactor hellion into banshee/ mass thors for that one time death push/ 2 rax marine stuff
terrans since release have almost all been using these 1 base win or lose builds. i dont think ive seen any pro terran player use a build that even ATTEMPTS to bring the game into late game. yet they are all more then happy to whine about late game.
the reason zerg seems op in late game is because THEY HAVE BEEN PLAYING FOR THE LATE GAME SINCE THE BEGINING!
months of constant playing just to play in the late game have ment zerg knows how to play 20+ minute games with ease.
terran players have been doing 1 base all ins then riding on the advantage they gained from the damage they have done for months now. so its natural for when zerg learn to start surviving these 1 base all ins. and bringing more and more games into the late game for zergs to win more games.
and its time for terran players to adapt.
and they have. just with more 1 base early aggression stuff. and eventually zerg will learn some sort of timing to stop this too. and games will go into the late game. and terrans will still whine.
/rantover.
Dude, you keep saying "they" and I don't know what you're talking about because I have seen almost every professional Terran play a great late game. Not only that but it's my favorite play style, you have it all wrong, which is expected because you play Zerg and probably only Zerg. Terrans aren't confident not because of "exploration", (which is the dumbest thing I have heard) it's because macro wise Zerg's shit on Terrans and unless you do heavy hurass or early game damage you will lose against an equal player.
I said it once and I'll say it again, make spine crawlers and get over it.
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On November 24 2010 11:33 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 11:20 positron. wrote:On November 24 2010 11:14 TyrantPotato wrote:
so annoying.
this build is a strong early aggression build. the reason everyone does it is because they arent confident with late game play against zerg and prefer early game play.
lets look at the history of sc2 so far since release.
first there was the popular 5 rax reaper. killing zerg before 10 minutes. why did terrans use this. because it was OP and they didnt feel confident with late game play.
then there was alot of reactor hellion into banshee stuff. why because reaper died out with nerfs. again 1 base early mid game plays. why because terrans arent confident with late game play.
around the same time as reactor hellion was the MASS THOR phase. where all terrans did was get an expo then mass thors and attack. why? because mass thors was insane because at the time it hit just before late game of zerg as ultralisk cavern was building. essentially ending the game before playing against late game zerg. why because terran wasnt confident playing late game zerg.
and now this. 2 rax marine scv all in stuff. why because it shits on zerg against like 5 rax reaper. not as OP but a bitch to hold. why terrans do it. because its effective and they arent confident with late game zerg.
do you see a pattern here? terran players have been using 1 base stuff since release. all with the excuse of hard late game. BUT THEY ARENT EXPLORING LATE GAME PLAYSTYLES!! you cant say late game is impossible if your opening every game with 5 rax reaper/ reactor hellion into banshee/ mass thors for that one time death push/ 2 rax marine stuff
terrans since release have almost all been using these 1 base win or lose builds. i dont think ive seen any pro terran player use a build that even ATTEMPTS to bring the game into late game. yet they are all more then happy to whine about late game.
the reason zerg seems op in late game is because THEY HAVE BEEN PLAYING FOR THE LATE GAME SINCE THE BEGINING!
months of constant playing just to play in the late game have ment zerg knows how to play 20+ minute games with ease.
terran players have been doing 1 base all ins then riding on the advantage they gained from the damage they have done for months now. so its natural for when zerg learn to start surviving these 1 base all ins. and bringing more and more games into the late game for zergs to win more games.
and its time for terran players to adapt.
and they have. just with more 1 base early aggression stuff. and eventually zerg will learn some sort of timing to stop this too. and games will go into the late game. and terrans will still whine.
/rantover. So you think these guys who play for a living for some reason don't practice late game? How do you know they don't explore late game?? Did you get to see their practice games by some chances? They are not exploring it enough then. To say that they have is to say that SC2 is figured out already, and if 1-base timing attack play is the standard TvZ for SC2, it will never become as prevalent as SC1 without a major overhaul.
They practice enough to decide that early aggression is their best bet at this stage so that is what they are using. I don't see anything wrong with that. It's funny how when Terran told Zerg to l2p they cried and whined until they got the patch and now it is their turn to say hohoho l2p. That guy came in here and capitalize phrases like "BUT THEY ARENT EXPLORING LATE GAME PLAYSTYLES!!" like a retard.
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On November 24 2010 11:14 TyrantPotato wrote:
so annoying.
this build is a strong early aggression build. the reason everyone does it is because they arent confident with late game play against zerg and prefer early game play.
Yup, I agree. You can't beat Zerg in the late game with Terran so the pros are forced to gamble everything before Zerg reaches late game.
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On November 24 2010 11:33 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 11:20 positron. wrote:On November 24 2010 11:14 TyrantPotato wrote:
so annoying.
this build is a strong early aggression build. the reason everyone does it is because they arent confident with late game play against zerg and prefer early game play.
lets look at the history of sc2 so far since release.
first there was the popular 5 rax reaper. killing zerg before 10 minutes. why did terrans use this. because it was OP and they didnt feel confident with late game play.
then there was alot of reactor hellion into banshee stuff. why because reaper died out with nerfs. again 1 base early mid game plays. why because terrans arent confident with late game play.
around the same time as reactor hellion was the MASS THOR phase. where all terrans did was get an expo then mass thors and attack. why? because mass thors was insane because at the time it hit just before late game of zerg as ultralisk cavern was building. essentially ending the game before playing against late game zerg. why because terran wasnt confident playing late game zerg.
and now this. 2 rax marine scv all in stuff. why because it shits on zerg against like 5 rax reaper. not as OP but a bitch to hold. why terrans do it. because its effective and they arent confident with late game zerg.
do you see a pattern here? terran players have been using 1 base stuff since release. all with the excuse of hard late game. BUT THEY ARENT EXPLORING LATE GAME PLAYSTYLES!! you cant say late game is impossible if your opening every game with 5 rax reaper/ reactor hellion into banshee/ mass thors for that one time death push/ 2 rax marine stuff
terrans since release have almost all been using these 1 base win or lose builds. i dont think ive seen any pro terran player use a build that even ATTEMPTS to bring the game into late game. yet they are all more then happy to whine about late game.
the reason zerg seems op in late game is because THEY HAVE BEEN PLAYING FOR THE LATE GAME SINCE THE BEGINING!
months of constant playing just to play in the late game have ment zerg knows how to play 20+ minute games with ease.
terran players have been doing 1 base all ins then riding on the advantage they gained from the damage they have done for months now. so its natural for when zerg learn to start surviving these 1 base all ins. and bringing more and more games into the late game for zergs to win more games.
and its time for terran players to adapt.
and they have. just with more 1 base early aggression stuff. and eventually zerg will learn some sort of timing to stop this too. and games will go into the late game. and terrans will still whine.
/rantover. So you think these guys who play for a living for some reason don't practice late game? How do you know they don't explore late game?? Did you get to see their practice games by some chances? They are not exploring it enough then. To say that they have is to say that SC2 is figured out already, and if 1-base timing attack play is the standard TvZ for SC2, it will never become as prevalent as SC1 without a major overhaul.
They are paid, live in the same house with teammates just to play games, you don't think that no pro terrans in all clans tell their zerg teammates "hey, you and me, let's practice some games where I'll play heavy macro, maybe it's the key to Terran currently" and then they lost terribly? Do you think they just mass game up, and not sit down to analyze the replays with their teammates? If you say Terran didn't explore it enough, then it's the same as Zerg. Why is 2 rax scv rush so effective? Is it because that build is op, or Zerg are not exploring it enough?
Sometimes things really need to, like you say, an overhaul (patching), to make things balance quicker. we don't want to sit around 6 months trying to "explore" all the possibility, that would be so stupid. If T get buff and become OP again, we only need to nerf T again, that's how things work.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
On November 24 2010 11:14 TyrantPotato wrote:
so annoying.
this build is a strong early aggression build. the reason everyone does it is because they arent confident with late game play against zerg and prefer early game play.
lets look at the history of sc2 so far since release.
first there was the popular 5 rax reaper. killing zerg before 10 minutes. why did terrans use this. because it was OP and they didnt feel confident with late game play.
then there was alot of reactor hellion into banshee stuff. why because reaper died out with nerfs. again 1 base early mid game plays. why because terrans arent confident with late game play.
around the same time as reactor hellion was the MASS THOR phase. where all terrans did was get an expo then mass thors and attack. why? because mass thors was insane because at the time it hit just before late game of zerg as ultralisk cavern was building. essentially ending the game before playing against late game zerg. why because terran wasnt confident playing late game zerg.
and now this. 2 rax marine scv all in stuff. why because it shits on zerg against like 5 rax reaper. not as OP but a bitch to hold. why terrans do it. because its effective and they arent confident with late game zerg.
do you see a pattern here? terran players have been using 1 base stuff since release. all with the excuse of hard late game. BUT THEY ARENT EXPLORING LATE GAME PLAYSTYLES!! you cant say late game is impossible if your opening every game with 5 rax reaper/ reactor hellion into banshee/ mass thors for that one time death push/ 2 rax marine stuff
terrans since release have almost all been using these 1 base win or lose builds. i dont think ive seen any pro terran player use a build that even ATTEMPTS to bring the game into late game. yet they are all more then happy to whine about late game.
the reason zerg seems op in late game is because THEY HAVE BEEN PLAYING FOR THE LATE GAME SINCE THE BEGINING!
months of constant playing just to play in the late game have ment zerg knows how to play 20+ minute games with ease.
terran players have been doing 1 base all ins then riding on the advantage they gained from the damage they have done for months now. so its natural for when zerg learn to start surviving these 1 base all ins. and bringing more and more games into the late game for zergs to win more games.
and its time for terran players to adapt.
and they have. just with more 1 base early aggression stuff. and eventually zerg will learn some sort of timing to stop this too. and games will go into the late game. and terrans will still whine.
/rantover.
Really? Zerg "learned" to survive or was everything patched for them?
Korean terran pros practise 10-12 hrs a day in a team. Do you think these people haven't explored the late game possibilities?
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On November 24 2010 11:14 TyrantPotato wrote:
so annoying.
this build is a strong early aggression build. the reason everyone does it is because they arent confident with late game play against zerg and prefer early game play.
lets look at the history of sc2 so far since release.
first there was the popular 5 rax reaper. killing zerg before 10 minutes. why did terrans use this. because it was OP and they didnt feel confident with late game play.
then there was alot of reactor hellion into banshee stuff. why because reaper died out with nerfs. again 1 base early mid game plays. why because terrans arent confident with late game play.
around the same time as reactor hellion was the MASS THOR phase. where all terrans did was get an expo then mass thors and attack. why? because mass thors was insane because at the time it hit just before late game of zerg as ultralisk cavern was building. essentially ending the game before playing against late game zerg. why because terran wasnt confident playing late game zerg.
and now this. 2 rax marine scv all in stuff. why because it shits on zerg against like 5 rax reaper. not as OP but a bitch to hold. why terrans do it. because its effective and they arent confident with late game zerg.
do you see a pattern here? terran players have been using 1 base stuff since release. all with the excuse of hard late game. BUT THEY ARENT EXPLORING LATE GAME PLAYSTYLES!! you cant say late game is impossible if your opening every game with 5 rax reaper/ reactor hellion into banshee/ mass thors for that one time death push/ 2 rax marine stuff
terrans since release have almost all been using these 1 base win or lose builds. i dont think ive seen any pro terran player use a build that even ATTEMPTS to bring the game into late game. yet they are all more then happy to whine about late game.
the reason zerg seems op in late game is because THEY HAVE BEEN PLAYING FOR THE LATE GAME SINCE THE BEGINING!
months of constant playing just to play in the late game have ment zerg knows how to play 20+ minute games with ease.
terran players have been doing 1 base all ins then riding on the advantage they gained from the damage they have done for months now. so its natural for when zerg learn to start surviving these 1 base all ins. and bringing more and more games into the late game for zergs to win more games.
and its time for terran players to adapt.
and they have. just with more 1 base early aggression stuff. and eventually zerg will learn some sort of timing to stop this too. and games will go into the late game. and terrans will still whine.
/rantover.
good statement, terrans must suck cause obviously you are a great zerg player. thats all what I can read in your post.
I dont know what you are doing but I dont cheese, all in in customgames and I play like 50% cgs instead of ladder. even the zergs I train with say that the mu shifted into their favor and only ZvZ gives them a hard time.
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Where da compulsory, absolutely required 14-15 hatch at? Think JulyZerg pretty much blew that misconception out of the way while absolutely blowing up macro wise.
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On November 24 2010 23:05 dakalro wrote:
Where da compulsory, absolutely required 14-15 hatch at? Think JulyZerg pretty much blew that misconception out of the way while absolutely blowing up macro wise.
zvp is best played with early speedlings to counter stalker/zealot early aggression
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On November 24 2010 23:05 dakalro wrote:
Where da compulsory, absolutely required 14-15 hatch at? Think JulyZerg pretty much blew that misconception out of the way while absolutely blowing up macro wise.
Let's quote more ZvP games when we're talking about ZvT.
Those +1 zealots sure to own zerglings, nerf marines to fix it IMO.
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EPT
