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On November 24 2010 07:44 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:38 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:23 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced. WILL PEOPLE STOP THINKING THE TERRAN ALL-IN IS ONLY AGAINST A FAST EXPAND? Like Idra said earlier in the thread, this new T style is very hard to defend if you go 14gas/14pool -> speed. 7-8 marines can pop into your base before speed has even finished. It's incredibly strong against anything the zerg wants to do, it's incredibly flexible for the terran, and it's completely unscoutable. Idra is a subpar Zerg player in GSL, End of Story. Fruitdealer and Kyrix had no issues defending against the best Terran 14 hatch rusher - Foxer. Don't quote subpar zerg players that have yet to win the GSL or GOM All Star Invitational. so idra isnt a valid source but you are? sounds.... weird? i dont even care about this topic cause as i said earlier people really need to stop overreacting to some fotm trend. but your post makes no sense. Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:41 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 07:16 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:06 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 06:00 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now. Try 100% win rate for GOM tournaments. Zerg have won GSL 1, GSL 2, and the GOM All Star invitational. Also, Zerg make up 27 of 64 players at GSL 3. If that isn't OP, I don't know what is. 3 tournaments is an incredibly small sample size. The number of players at a single GSL event is an incredibly small sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from these statistics. 6000 people trying out in the preliminaries is a small sample all right. what has this to do with players in the gsl which are 64? and the prelims are damn random. thats why great players like nada,tester and huk arent qualifying while there are random 2k players in that get horrible face stomped in the ro64
So it's "random" and "unreliable" and not becase "huk got his ass kicked by better players in the preliminaries".
good thinkin.
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On November 24 2010 07:56 Thetan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:46 Saechiis wrote:On November 24 2010 07:23 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced. WILL PEOPLE STOP THINKING THE TERRAN ALL-IN IS ONLY AGAINST A FAST EXPAND? Like Idra said earlier in the thread, this new T style is very hard to defend if you go 14gas/14pool -> speed. 7-8 marines can pop into your base before speed has even finished. It's incredibly strong against anything the zerg wants to do, it's incredibly flexible for the terran, and it's completely unscoutable. Lol, repeating what IdrA said in a different order doesn't make you seem smart, it also doesn't make it true. In fact, looking at your posts it doesn't seem like you've played against this style at all and are just arguing because you're a Zerg player. Saying it is unscoutable, unlimitingly flexible and a counter to everything Zerg does is just a silly way to show you've been brainwashed by Artosis  I brought it up because people were arguing a completely different point. And I trust Idra's opinion way more than the random posters in the forum. The point is that using this build, Terran can react to whatever zerg is doing. If there's an opening, Terran has the capabilities do critical damage. And if there isn't an opening, Terran can get their expansion down first as zerg was being mega defensive. It's not an EASY build for Terran (as knowledge of when to push out and with how many SCV's takes alot of skill), but from what i've seen and read that if done right makes it EXTREMELY difficult for zerg
Difficult to hold your 14 hatch / free expansion, oh noes. We feel sorry for you guys.
It's more difficult for us to hold our 14 CC/ Nexus.
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On November 24 2010 07:57 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:56 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:46 Saechiis wrote:On November 24 2010 07:23 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced. WILL PEOPLE STOP THINKING THE TERRAN ALL-IN IS ONLY AGAINST A FAST EXPAND? Like Idra said earlier in the thread, this new T style is very hard to defend if you go 14gas/14pool -> speed. 7-8 marines can pop into your base before speed has even finished. It's incredibly strong against anything the zerg wants to do, it's incredibly flexible for the terran, and it's completely unscoutable. Lol, repeating what IdrA said in a different order doesn't make you seem smart, it also doesn't make it true. In fact, looking at your posts it doesn't seem like you've played against this style at all and are just arguing because you're a Zerg player. Saying it is unscoutable, unlimitingly flexible and a counter to everything Zerg does is just a silly way to show you've been brainwashed by Artosis I brought it up because people were arguing a completely different point. And I trust Idra's opinion way more than the random posters in the forum. The point is that using this build, Terran can react to whatever zerg is doing. If there's an opening, Terran has the capabilities do critical damage. And if there isn't an opening, Terran can get their expansion down first as zerg was being mega defensive. It's not an EASY build for Terran (as knowledge of when to push out and with how many SCV's takes alot of skill), but from what i've seen and read that if done right makes it EXTREMELY difficult for zerg Difficult to hold your 14 hatch / free expansion, oh noes. We feel sorry for you guys.
Once again, it's not just 14 hatch. Even with 14gas/14pool Terran can still put on craptons of pressure and either win the game or come out ahead in worker count.
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On November 24 2010 07:16 Thetan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:06 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 06:00 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now. Try 100% win rate for GOM tournaments. Zerg have won GSL 1, GSL 2, and the GOM All Star invitational. Also, Zerg make up 27 of 64 players at GSL 3. If that isn't OP, I don't know what is. 3 tournaments is an incredibly small sample size. The number of players at a single GSL event is an incredibly small sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from these statistics.
yeah, you haven't taken a statistics course, have you? With the number of players we've had in all 3 GSLs, there are more than enough players to draw conclusions from the statistics.
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Its another cheesy all in build. Now every Terran will do it against Zerg to stop the game from progressing past SCVs and marines vs drones and zerglings... Great, now I get to play extremely short games 1/3 of the time. Everyone who copies this is sad too, one base all in pushes are becoming too popular and ruining this game. People care too much about winning and don't want to play the game.
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On November 24 2010 07:59 Sideburn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:16 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:06 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 06:00 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now. Try 100% win rate for GOM tournaments. Zerg have won GSL 1, GSL 2, and the GOM All Star invitational. Also, Zerg make up 27 of 64 players at GSL 3. If that isn't OP, I don't know what is. 3 tournaments is an incredibly small sample size. The number of players at a single GSL event is an incredibly small sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from these statistics. yeah, you haven't taken a statistics course, have you? With the number of players we've had in all 3 GSLs, there are more than enough players to draw conclusions from the statistics.
Not if, as the post i was responding to was, you are only looking at the WINNERS of the GSL (which has a sample size of 3) and at the race distribution of only GSL 3. I haven't seen data on W-L% by race in the GSL overall (though that data would be interesting).
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On November 24 2010 05:42 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:41 DooMDash wrote:
I think people are a little bit brain-washed by Artosis's biased commentary. He's obviously a Zerg player and makes it sound like Zerg always has problems and T should always be winning because how powerful their desperate all in is. The guy will stop crying and be biased when he wins 1st place. Which will never happen since he doesn't even break through preliminaries. should just use jason lee + idra to replace him. Idras biased as hell but he barely speaks so it balances out.
you sir are my hero.
i like artosis work, but his childish behavior ("uhhh I am not a progamer so Zerg must be weak" or " uhhhh I am to dumb to build a turret or a scanner or to lay mines so DTs are imbalanced") pisses me off and the sad thing is all these wc3 kids and FPS kids joining the community and seeing his whiny behavior copy it 1 to 1.
artosis STOP playing you will never be good enough to be a star. just focus on casting and casting needs objectivity!
@ topic
I dont use the 2 rax + pull scv build, because it just doesnt look good for me. in all honestly pulling scvs and going 2 rax to have a 50% chance to punish a hatch first build looks just totally stupid in my opinion. I just say BBS in sc1 vs hatch first and no scout was like a 95% win. Thats a build where I would take the risks of ending way behind.
I will keep playing the harass into expand style, because the longer the game gets the more chances I will have that a bad Zerg will make mistakes. Hell I will still lose against equal skilled Zergs but with the way the MM works I should win at least 51%-55% and this is way better than 50% even against super, super bad Zergs.
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blind baneling nest with first 50 gas after speed, and a spine or two in key spots. every game until this nonsense stops. i havent lost to marines in a few days. 1750 diamond.
if for some reason they dont push with marines -> 2 base banelings, scout for banshee. works very well for me. just make drones strategically (i rally mine to my main) and try to get the towers so u can see marines rallied to your base (go pick them off with lings).
this puts the terran in somewhat of a bind. if they went more then 2 barracks (terrans never have an expo if they are rushing marines, if they try to expo u should autowin) they are almost commited to bio, in which case i will roflstomp. a transition to blue flame hellions can be bad tho. i would rather see tanks come out of that factory. just make lings not banelings in that case.
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On November 24 2010 08:04 Vaporized wrote:
blind baneling nest with first 50 gas after speed, and a spine or two in key spots. every game until this nonsense stops. i havent lost to marines in a few days. 1750 diamond. if for some reason they dont push with marines -> 2 base banelings, scout for banshee. works very well for me.
this puts the terran in somewhat of a bind. if they went more then 2 barracks (terrans never have an expo if they are rushing marines) they are almost commited to bio, in which case i will roflstomp. a transition to blue flame hellions can be bad tho. i would rather see tanks come out of that factory. just make lings not banelings in that case.
The problem with THIS build is that the terran DOES expo while pumping marines out of 2 rax
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On November 24 2010 08:01 Thetan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:59 Sideburn wrote:On November 24 2010 07:16 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:06 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 06:00 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now. Try 100% win rate for GOM tournaments. Zerg have won GSL 1, GSL 2, and the GOM All Star invitational. Also, Zerg make up 27 of 64 players at GSL 3. If that isn't OP, I don't know what is. 3 tournaments is an incredibly small sample size. The number of players at a single GSL event is an incredibly small sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from these statistics. yeah, you haven't taken a statistics course, have you? With the number of players we've had in all 3 GSLs, there are more than enough players to draw conclusions from the statistics. Not if, as the post i was responding to was, you are only looking at the WINNERS of the GSL (which has a sample size of 3) and at the race distribution of only GSL 3. I haven't seen data on W-L% by race in the GSL overall (though that data would be interesting).
True, if you are looking at only the winners, you can hardly draw any conclusions about trends, though that won't stop people from trying. You can only say things like, "It CAN be done."
The W-L% are out there, and they are interesting. Especially looking at them from season to season, to see how things are changing. Season 2 was grim for toss, IIRC.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
i think zerg should, do its fast roachwarren and after 2-3 roach get the expo with some ling coming too, but at the same time this is a trouble bc terran can just keep macroing while u play defensive
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On November 24 2010 07:46 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:23 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced. WILL PEOPLE STOP THINKING THE TERRAN ALL-IN IS ONLY AGAINST A FAST EXPAND? Like Idra said earlier in the thread, this new T style is very hard to defend if you go 14gas/14pool -> speed. 7-8 marines can pop into your base before speed has even finished. It's incredibly strong against anything the zerg wants to do, it's incredibly flexible for the terran, and it's completely unscoutable. Lol, repeating what IdrA said in a different order doesn't make you seem smart, it also doesn't make it true. In fact, looking at your posts it doesn't seem like you've played against this style at all and are just arguing because you're a Zerg player. Saying it is unscoutable, unlimitingly flexible and a counter to everything Zerg does is just a silly way to show you've been brainwashed by Artosis
Its unscoutable because once he has 2 rax up and marines at his choke, drones and lings aren't getting up the ramp to take a look, and with 2 rax hes going to have enough marines to cover OL flyovers easily, the rest comes down to smart building placement.
The build is difficult because if a zerg sees 2 rax, he pretty much HAS to get a baneling nest and some Zerglings and speed which cuts significantly into drone production. On the other hand the T can (and should) scan, see the Crawlers/Banelings/Speedlings and from there can simply not allin, the damage has been done and the T can transition into midgame with a significant advantage.
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On November 24 2010 08:07 Thetan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 08:04 Vaporized wrote:
blind baneling nest with first 50 gas after speed, and a spine or two in key spots. every game until this nonsense stops. i havent lost to marines in a few days. 1750 diamond. if for some reason they dont push with marines -> 2 base banelings, scout for banshee. works very well for me.
this puts the terran in somewhat of a bind. if they went more then 2 barracks (terrans never have an expo if they are rushing marines) they are almost commited to bio, in which case i will roflstomp. a transition to blue flame hellions can be bad tho. i would rather see tanks come out of that factory. just make lings not banelings in that case. The problem with THIS build is that the terran DOES expo while pumping marines out of 2 rax
now that i think about it one guy on metal made his barracks at his expo and expo'd fairly quickly. i defended like i described, and eventually with 2 base banelings i had enough bling to kill 2 bunkers, some marine maruader, and so many left over they instantly evaporated the expo command center. wish i saved that replay, just played it a few hours ago. maybe the terrans i play suck (possible, sure), but marine rushes are very predictable and in my experience, punishable.
you dont need many drones to constantly make zerglings, and 2 gasses (sometimes i get 3) mining is enough over a few minutes to instantly morph 30-40 banelings when u are ready to push.
edit: this is all in (well as all in as u could be with an expansion) for me. if the terran is doing something other then marine rush then you adjust accordingly.
and a blind baneling nest doesnt bother me at all. if i never use it fine, it was 100 minerals, 50 gas well spent towards my early game peace of mind. but lets be honest banelings are a core unit zvt.
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On November 24 2010 08:19 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 08:07 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 08:04 Vaporized wrote:
blind baneling nest with first 50 gas after speed, and a spine or two in key spots. every game until this nonsense stops. i havent lost to marines in a few days. 1750 diamond. if for some reason they dont push with marines -> 2 base banelings, scout for banshee. works very well for me.
this puts the terran in somewhat of a bind. if they went more then 2 barracks (terrans never have an expo if they are rushing marines) they are almost commited to bio, in which case i will roflstomp. a transition to blue flame hellions can be bad tho. i would rather see tanks come out of that factory. just make lings not banelings in that case. The problem with THIS build is that the terran DOES expo while pumping marines out of 2 rax now that i think about it one guy on metal made his barracks at his expo and expo'd fairly quickly. i defended like i described, and eventually with 2 base banelings i had enough bling to kill 2 bunkers, some marine maruader, and so many left over they instantly evaporated the expo command center. wish i saved that replay, just played it a few hours ago. maybe the terrans i play suck (possible, sure), but marine rushes are very predictable and in my experience, punishable. you dont need many drones to constantly make zerglings, and 2 gasses (sometimes i get 3) mining is enough over a few minutes to instantly morph 30-40 banelings when u are ready to push.
I have a feeling you aren't playing anywhere near a high level if you have 750-1000 gas and min floating to devote to banelings
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On November 24 2010 07:56 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:44 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On November 24 2010 07:38 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:23 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:19 andrewwiggin wrote:
If zerg expand early, that's economy play.
If a terran goes all in, that's.. an all in.
All in > economy play. Simple?
If it DIDNT work that way, THEN something would be wrong. As it stands, I think current TvZ is quite balanced. WILL PEOPLE STOP THINKING THE TERRAN ALL-IN IS ONLY AGAINST A FAST EXPAND? Like Idra said earlier in the thread, this new T style is very hard to defend if you go 14gas/14pool -> speed. 7-8 marines can pop into your base before speed has even finished. It's incredibly strong against anything the zerg wants to do, it's incredibly flexible for the terran, and it's completely unscoutable. Idra is a subpar Zerg player in GSL, End of Story. Fruitdealer and Kyrix had no issues defending against the best Terran 14 hatch rusher - Foxer. Don't quote subpar zerg players that have yet to win the GSL or GOM All Star Invitational. so idra isnt a valid source but you are? sounds.... weird? i dont even care about this topic cause as i said earlier people really need to stop overreacting to some fotm trend. but your post makes no sense. On November 24 2010 07:41 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 07:16 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:06 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 06:00 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now. Try 100% win rate for GOM tournaments. Zerg have won GSL 1, GSL 2, and the GOM All Star invitational. Also, Zerg make up 27 of 64 players at GSL 3. If that isn't OP, I don't know what is. 3 tournaments is an incredibly small sample size. The number of players at a single GSL event is an incredibly small sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from these statistics. 6000 people trying out in the preliminaries is a small sample all right. what has this to do with players in the gsl which are 64? and the prelims are damn random. thats why great players like nada,tester and huk arent qualifying while there are random 2k players in that get horrible face stomped in the ro64 So it's "random" and "unreliable" and not becase "huk got his ass kicked by better players in the preliminaries". good thinkin.
exactly. or do you really think those random guys that totally get owned in the ro64 (and there even were some in the gsl that were mediocre on the ladder) are BETTER PLAYERS then nada/tester/huk ?
a better player can easily lose a bo3 to a worse player. esp in sc2 with countless cheeses and allins in all matchups in addition to huge map imbalances.
look at idra @ last mlg. or imagine ret faced zergbong&genius instead of some randoms in his bracket, he couldve played exactly as good as he did now but maybe would be out. what do you call that if not "random" or "chance"?
also i never said anything about huk not getting beaten by a better player. i just said that the prelims are somewhat random , both from actual games and the brackets.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On November 24 2010 07:59 Sideburn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 07:16 Thetan wrote:On November 24 2010 07:06 StarcraftMan wrote:On November 24 2010 06:00 klauz619 wrote:On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now. Try 100% win rate for GOM tournaments. Zerg have won GSL 1, GSL 2, and the GOM All Star invitational. Also, Zerg make up 27 of 64 players at GSL 3. If that isn't OP, I don't know what is. 3 tournaments is an incredibly small sample size. The number of players at a single GSL event is an incredibly small sample size. No real conclusions can be drawn from these statistics. yeah, you haven't taken a statistics course, have you? With the number of players we've had in all 3 GSLs, there are more than enough players to draw conclusions from the statistics.
It's important to realize that we're not analyzing data here, we're actually looking at trends. The real data happens in the ladder, and then these players get the impression that terran cannot win in a long game, and zerg has incredible difficulty winning a rush game. Hence these trends manifest themselves in the GSL games. We don't need to look at every TvZ these guys play on the ladder, we can look at what builds they go for when their tournament life depends on it, and that's good enough as an indicator than anything else.
The problem is not this early game terran cheese. The actual problem is that terrans do not believe they can win in the late-game against zerg, and so their only recourse is to do these 10-15 minute timing attacks. If terran felt comfortable in the late-game, then they would be less inclined to risk everything on cheese every series.
So the problem is not that this cheese occurs, cheese should be allowed to occur, and is a powerful disincentive against certain types of play. Cheese is powerful but also needs to be fragile. As NewDawn demonstrated, it can be held off comfortably. If terrans figured out or were given more late-game viability, then they would not play such risky games.
EDIT: Actually, I should be more careful with my terms. This is an all-in, but not a cheese, seeing as zergs seem to have trouble with it even when they see it coming.
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This is stupid, there has to be a way terran can stop hatchery first or else its like zerg gets a free base in every matchup. The only problem I have is the supply before depot nerf which doesn't let terran cheese ever. If you call this cheese your very wrong because its more of an all-in because if you fail your so behind 2 bases vs 1 and the loss in scvs..
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You can very easily scout that they're not getting gas until way after their orbital starts, once the rine is out chain steal gas and count the rines.
If they're not getting 13 gas they're not going banshee or hellion.
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Well, so far :
+ Show Spoiler +
ZvT 2/4
ZvP 1/1
PvT 2/1
This can be deceiving as itself, looking at it P would be OP, and T would be doing farewell, but in fact for anyone it should be 1/5 ,,,,
Also the small number of protoss justify why they are doing kind good ....
Edit: as only the good ones qualified ....
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Not a surprise at all. Terrans just found out how to beat a greedy Zerg. Anyone who didn't see this coming is ignorant and better get used to players finding out cool timings to abuse this kind of stuff.
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EPT
