EPTAt the very least wait until the end of this GSL before drawing broad conclusions about the meta-game.
Instead, lets talk about the badass that is NewDawn!
NewDawn Fighting!
Your thoughts on new ZvT trend? (GSL 3 spoilers) - Page 23
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LancerStarcraft
United States235 Posts
At the very least wait until the end of this GSL before drawing broad conclusions about the meta-game. Instead, lets talk about the badass that is NewDawn! NewDawn Fighting! | ||
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
On long maps, you don't need to make blings blind, you'll 'usually' be able to scout the 2 rax and respond with a spine or two as you transition to blings. Also, I only consider cheese something that's a true all-in, and yeah you can say "LOL T can't all-in they have mules imba!@", but that strategy if done decently will at least break even with the Zerg losses, I generally don't think it's an all-in. | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On November 25 2010 11:25 LancerStarcraft wrote: I don't think everyone should overreact too quickly to this. It's easy to forget that SC2 strategy is still very, very, young. This strat seems very gimmicky to me and in general an overreaction by Terran players to the roach buff since late-game ZvT is skewed toward Zerg right now. This is going to lead to Zergs overreacting to Terran aggression and the match-up is going to wing back and forth like that until it stabilizes. At the very least wait until the end of this GSL before drawing broad conclusions about the meta-game. Instead, lets talk about the badass that is NewDawn! NewDawn Fighting! How many more GSL does Zerg need to win before we acknowledge the very simple fact that late game Zerg macro is uncounterable when the Zerg doesn't screw up something. It was even said before the release of the beta that Zerg macro would be unbeatable due to huge difference between the macro mechanics (almost linear for protoss and terran, geometric for Zerg). | ||
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LancerStarcraft
United States235 Posts
On November 25 2010 11:32 TeWy wrote: How many more GSL does Zerg need to win before we acknowledge the very simple fact that late game Zerg macro is uncounterable when the Zerg doesn't screw up something. It was even said before the release of the beta that Zerg macro would be unbeatable due to huge difference between the macro mechanics (almost linear for protoss and terran, geometric for Zerg). I would point out that the first two OSL Starleagues were won by protosses, and that the first 4 KGPAs were won by Terrans. In fact it wasn't until 2004 until a zerg player won a starleague final. Two GSLs aren't huge indicators of general strategy trends in the long-term. Pre-release no Zerg wanted to go late game against Terran because Mech play was so good. Like I said, it's too early to draw broad conclusions about strategy. And before you point out patches, yes I realize zerg has been buffed, and I honestly believed those patches were an over-reaction as well, and I'm former Zerg, now Random player. Everyone just chill and let the meta sort this out. | ||
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TeWy
France714 Posts
On November 25 2010 12:04 LancerStarcraft wrote: I would point out that the first two OSL Starleagues were won by protosses, and that the first 4 KGPAs were won by Terrans. In fact it wasn't until 2004 until a zerg player won a starleague final. Two GSLs aren't huge indicators of general strategy trends in the long-term. Pre-release no Zerg wanted to go late game against Terran because Mech play was so good. Like I said, it's too early to draw broad conclusions about strategy. And before you point out patches, yes I realize zerg has been buffed, and I honestly believed those patches were an over-reaction as well, and I'm former Zerg, now Random player. Everyone just chill and let the meta sort this out. I should chill out, but what drives me nutts is that the ones who are now saying "let's wait a little bit before making unnecessary balance changes" are the same who 3 months ago were basically insulting Blizzard for not patching TvZ and continuously posting QQ threads about the state of TvZ even after FD won GSL1 convincingly. It's the hypocrisy which is killing me. See where that leaded us. But in a sense, I would be glad to wait that GSL3 gets won by Zerg and that 50% of the qualified players for GSL4 are Zerg. Just to be able to say "You see, I told you..." ^^ | ||
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Shinkugami
England74 Posts
- 7 or 10 pool - 40 roaches - 1a Same brainless principle than when they played terran :D | ||
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SuperBigFoot
United States63 Posts
I know the common Zerg argument is that you have to constantly put pressure on a Zerg player in order to defeat him but that does not mean the game is balanced. Requiring one race to constantly attack the other because the other one is literally a ticking time bomb is a very unfair matchup. | ||
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kirkybaby
Korea (South)781 Posts
On November 25 2010 12:48 Shinkugami wrote: All the worthless new zergs who switched from terran are EASILY identifiable : - 7 or 10 pool - 40 roaches - 1a Same brainless principle than when they played terran :D I wonder if TL.net mgmt is flipping out because you said brainless on a public forum read by thousands of people. | ||
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LancerStarcraft
United States235 Posts
On November 25 2010 17:07 SuperBigFoot wrote: I'm really glad that this thread made 23 pages. It shows that there is a real problem with the ZvT matchup and I really hope someone at Blizzard is listening. Playing a late game Zerg is virtually impossible to defeat considering how they can larva stack and tech switch on the fly. Larva stacking saves just too many minerals for the Zerg player because they're not required to build multiple production facilities, just the one hatchery. I know the common Zerg argument is that you have to constantly put pressure on a Zerg player in order to defeat him but that does not mean the game is balanced. Requiring one race to constantly attack the other because the other one is literally a ticking time bomb is a very unfair matchup. Late-game zerg only have the advantage of extra larvae in very narrow circumstances: 1) They need map control and freedom to expand 2) They need a 1 or 2 base advantage over the Terran 3) They need to get a 200/200 army 4) They need enough time after being 200/200 to bank resources and larva Honestly if you let a zerg get out of hand and mass expand, then allow them to get maxed and bank resources long enough to replenish, then you deserve to lose the game because you played passively. Jinro's game 3 last night is a perfect example on how to beat Zerg without being super-aggresive. He went two base and used his lone banshee to deny the Zerg expansion to the sides of the map, meanwhile massing a sizable marine/tank force. When the Zerg moved to take a third in the middle, Jinro moved out his army and crushed the Zerg army. The reason he won the battle was because he forced the point of attack into a favorable position for him (The Zerg's third), but the reason he won the game was because he didn't allow the Zerg to expand all over the place. | ||
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SuperBigFoot
United States63 Posts
On November 26 2010 03:36 LancerStarcraft wrote: Late-game zerg only have the advantage of extra larvae in very narrow circumstances: 1) They need map control and freedom to expand 2) They need a 1 or 2 base advantage over the Terran 3) They need to get a 200/200 army 4) They need enough time after being 200/200 to bank resources and larva Honestly if you let a zerg get out of hand and mass expand, then allow them to get maxed and bank resources long enough to replenish, then you deserve to lose the game because you played passively. Jinro's game 3 last night is a perfect example on how to beat Zerg without being super-aggresive. He went two base and used his lone banshee to deny the Zerg expansion to the sides of the map, meanwhile massing a sizable marine/tank force. When the Zerg moved to take a third in the middle, Jinro moved out his army and crushed the Zerg army. The reason he won the battle was because he forced the point of attack into a favorable position for him (The Zerg's third), but the reason he won the game was because he didn't allow the Zerg to expand all over the place. My post wasn't about how to defeat a Zerg player. My post is about the imbalance issues with the Zerg race and it is clear from your response that we are in agreement that the Zerg race can get out of hand because their late game mechanics is literally broken. Trying to make excuses as to why a Terran player loses is no justification for a broken game. That line of thinking is like saying "She deserved to get raped because she was wearing a short skit" or how Adolf Hitler justified genocide because he believed everyone should be blond with blue eyes. It's a poor justification for something that is wrong and broken. Until Blizzard actually enables a fair opportunity for all races to win during all times of a game, then the TvZ matchup will remain imbalanced, boring, and not fun to play or watch. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
My post wasn't about how to defeat a Zerg player. My post is about the imbalance issues with the Zerg race and it is clear from your response that we are in agreement that the Zerg race can get out of hand because their late game mechanics is literally broken. Trying to make excuses as to why a Terran player loses is no justification for a broken game. That line of thinking is like saying "She deserved to get raped because she was wearing a short skit" or how Adolf Hitler justified genocide because he believed everyone should be blond with blue eyes. It's a poor justification for something that is wrong and broken. Until Blizzard actually enables a fair opportunity for all races to win during all times of a game, then the TvZ matchup will remain imbalanced, boring, and not fun to play or watch. Did you seriously just say that video game imbalance is comparable to rape and genocide? Wtf. But in a sense, I would be glad to wait that GSL3 gets won by Zerg and that 50% of the qualified players for GSL4 are Zerg. Just to be able to say "You see, I told you..." ^^ Zerg have actually been losing left and right in GSL3. The inability to thumbs down a map really, really fucks them and its showing. If a Zerg gets DQ against a competent Toss or Terran, especially close positions, they will lose most of the time. | ||
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LancerStarcraft
United States235 Posts
On November 26 2010 04:52 SuperBigFoot wrote: My post wasn't about how to defeat a Zerg player. My post is about the imbalance issues with the Zerg race and it is clear from your response that we are in agreement that the Zerg race can get out of hand because their late game mechanics is literally broken. Trying to make excuses as to why a Terran player loses is no justification for a broken game. That line of thinking is like saying "She deserved to get raped because she was wearing a short skit" or how Adolf Hitler justified genocide because he believed everyone should be blond with blue eyes. It's a poor justification for something that is wrong and broken. Until Blizzard actually enables a fair opportunity for all races to win during all times of a game, then the TvZ matchup will remain imbalanced, boring, and not fun to play or watch. Look you're ignoring part of what I'm saying here. The fact is that Zerg only gets a tremendous macro advantage when they are allowed to out expand their opponent. And being honest, how is that different from any other race or matchup? If you let your opponent have map control, and don't deny expansions, you DESERVE to lose the game. If your strategy is to play passive, and then you lose by getting outmacroed by an opponent with more bases, then you played poorly and should have lost. But it seems that the point you're really trying to make is that you think that Blizzard needs to patch the game to fix something you think is imbalanced. Honestly, patching is half the problem why Terrans are having trouble in the first place. How about instead of looking at less than 3 months of serious competitive play (and even less since patch 1.1.2) just relax and wait for the meta-game to sort this out. It's already happening, Terrans have been playing quite well against Zergs this tournament, so just hang tight, the game will fix itself. As a closing point, just remember that FruitDealer won the first GSL at the height of all the talk of Zerg being imbalanced. Edit: And by imbalanced I mean underpowered, Terran was dominating Zerg at all points of the game at the time. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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