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On November 23 2010 16:21 n0xi3 wrote:
Pull more drones, or try to open with an earlier pool
But considering you are saying this is the new "ZvT" then sir you are VERY mistaken if you count this as cheese.
I consider pulling all your scv's as a cheese considering its all-in. It's not neccessarily the new 'ZvT" its just a reaction to a 14 hatch.
SCV- Well...lets see whats going on in the zerg's base
SCV- Hatch before pool! omg i gotta go tell my friends
SCV- Hey guys lets mine for a bit and then follow about 20 of our marine friends and throw ourselves at zerglings like human shields
Marines- Pew, pew
Zerg Hatchery- Ouch, GG
On a serious note, i feel like this could seriously hurt the direction ZvT is heading. The only way i can see things developing from this is you can't hatch before pool on 1v1 maps or closed positions its just to risky in the aspect of your going to encounter this 2 rax play. Also as artosis said a proper response might have to be if you go hatch first you have to go blind baneling nest WHICH isn't the worst thing in the world. Zerg players will adapt... but a lot of the all-in strats are because it was the RO64 we will see how players start playing once RO32 starts
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SCVS OP!!!
In all seriousness, what damage is there in going for an early Baneling Nest? Does the 150/50 investment not do enough to be safe? I don't play Zerg, so I'm not sure about the timings. Are the resulting Banelings an insufficient countermeasure, or does the investment screw you over in regards to some other intense timing push? Couldn't you simply leave a single Zergling outside their front and morph 5 lings into Banelings back home along with making a few more sets? Would that simply not produce enough units to defend with? I'm personally not seeing a huge difference between this and being forced to go for a Robo Fac in PvT to defend against potential Banshees. I could very well be wrong, though. Is the response more intense than just building a Bane Nest and building an army once their push leaves their base?
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I think the next step will be 15 hatch inside the base. Popping some lings/blings, expand after that and saturate it instantly.
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i think what you are seeing is not a nice new strategie its more like:
this is the only way i can win this matchup so lets try it.
it dont show a great new terran build. it shows the terran weakness and a possiblitiy to deny the early advantage of 14 hatch with an allin...
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I think the next step will be 15 hatch inside the base. Popping some lings/blings, expand after that and saturate it instantly.
That's the way i'm thinking about my Zerg play at the moment. I did'nt have time to try it yet though.
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14 hatch is nonsense and I'm glad terrans found ways to punish it. For a while all zergs were doing is 14 hatch, being completely safe, make like 2 zerglings a million drones. Hatch zlings and banelings when terran pushes out, because they have to push or they will lose, as it is their responsibility to be the aggressor since their late game sucks. And then BAM, wipe your entire army if u make 1 micro mistake. Once that first armies gone its game over. Now that was lame.
Now zergs have to maybe make a spawning pool first occasionally, and when they make that spawning pool they need to produce units for defense. Sounds good 2 me.
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Spoiler if u didn't watch HayPro's game
Honestly it is pretty ridiculous... that guy absolutely annihilated HayPro. It's not that he even couldn't tell it was coming since like every single Terran did it before his game as well... it's just insanely strong when one of the absolute top Zerg's gets beaten so bad.
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On November 23 2010 16:56 Acritter wrote:
SCVS OP!!!
In all seriousness, what damage is there in going for an early Baneling Nest? Does the 150/50 investment not do enough to be safe? I don't play Zerg, so I'm not sure about the timings. Are the resulting Banelings an insufficient countermeasure, or does the investment screw you over in regards to some other intense timing push? Couldn't you simply leave a single Zergling outside their front and morph 5 lings into Banelings back home along with making a few more sets? Would that simply not produce enough units to defend with? I'm personally not seeing a huge difference between this and being forced to go for a Robo Fac in PvT to defend against potential Banshees. I could very well be wrong, though. Is the response more intense than just building a Bane Nest and building an army once their push leaves their base? Throwing down the banelings nest blindly is really detrimental. I mean, in most cases against T, it is necessary eventually but think about it this way. That 150/50 could pretty much be your Lair. And your Lair is your key to tech. It's like telling a Protoss player to blindly open 2gate EVERY time instead of 1gate into cybercore. It severely halts your tech path as well as forces you into using your early aggression to try to justify it being there.
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On November 23 2010 17:25 Epoch wrote:
14 hatch is nonsense and I'm glad terrans found ways to punish it. For a while all zergs were doing is 14 hatch, being completely safe, make like 2 zerglings a million drones. Hatch zlings and banelings when terran pushes out, because they have to push or they will lose, as it is their responsibility to be the aggressor since their late game sucks. And then BAM, wipe your entire army if u make 1 micro mistake. Once that first armies gone its game over. Now that was lame.
Now zergs have to maybe make a spawning pool first occasionally, and when they make that spawning pool they need to produce units for defense. Sounds good 2 me.
Agreed. 14 Hatch is so greedy. I mean the correct response to seeing a 2nd DEFENSELESS base of any race should be: "lets go ******* kill it". I mean if you can't counter a FE with basically an all-in timing push/rush than that's ridiculous. There has to be a downside/risk to FE. Zerg should have to make some fighting units before an expansion just like everyone else.
I know the races are different, but as protoss if I were to Nexus before gateway or forge I'd get rolfstomped everytime. If I see a terran CC go down at 15 I immediately send my first few units to force it to at least lift off.
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Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 16:15 Durn wrote:
This season's GSL has been very telling of a new VERY strong trend in TvZ. Anyone keeping up in the GSL knows what I'm talking about.
Punishing the 14 Hatch with the 2Rax + Pull SCVs once the OC is done seems very strong. Now, the amount of all-in aggression is semi-risky in that there is absolutely no recovery out of it. However, in my opinion, it seems much stronger than traditional cheese tactics (proxy 2gate/cannon rush/proxy rax) in that the very fact that the option for this cheese exists not only cancels out a possible builder order (14 hatch/14 pool) but also makes the Zerg almost HAVE to get a blind bling nest or mass lings. This is due to the inability to scout a walled in Terran without sacrificing and overlord.
My final thoughts? It is cheese. It is very strong cheese. It makes me worried for possible Zerg openers because cutting off hatchery first puts down a very limited amount of very scoutable openings for Z.
I don't think this becomes an issue of ZOMG NERF TERRAN but rather how can Zerg adapt to handle this opening. The only times I've seen it beat were with a blind baneling nest or blindly pumping a bunch of lings when something feels fishy.
Only watch Nestea vs Foxer finals and learn how nestea deals with it
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On November 23 2010 17:36 busdriver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 17:25 Epoch wrote:
14 hatch is nonsense and I'm glad terrans found ways to punish it. For a while all zergs were doing is 14 hatch, being completely safe, make like 2 zerglings a million drones. Hatch zlings and banelings when terran pushes out, because they have to push or they will lose, as it is their responsibility to be the aggressor since their late game sucks. And then BAM, wipe your entire army if u make 1 micro mistake. Once that first armies gone its game over. Now that was lame.
Now zergs have to maybe make a spawning pool first occasionally, and when they make that spawning pool they need to produce units for defense. Sounds good 2 me. Agreed. 14 Hatch is so greedy. I mean the correct response to seeing a 2nd DEFENSELESS base of any race should be: "lets go ******* kill it". I mean if you can't counter a FE with basically an all-in timing push/rush than that's ridiculous. There has to be a downside/risk to FE. Zerg should have to make some fighting units before an expansion just like everyone else. I know the races are different, but as protoss if I were to Nexus before gateway or forge I'd get rolfstomped everytime. If I see a terran CC go down at 15 I immediately send my first few units to force it to at least lift off.
I don't know if I necessarily agree with that mentality. When you see a very early undefended second base, you have 2 options as far as I see. You can push into it, or you can take your second as well. It's not like theyr'e suddenly going have an army to counter yours and most races can expand later than Zerg and be fine. And really, I'd favor my chances as a 2 base Terran versus a 2 base Zerg than trying to crush his FE with a shotty timing attack. It just relies on your macro being better than the Zerg players and finding a strong timing to hit the Zerg with.
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On November 23 2010 17:36 Durn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 16:56 Acritter wrote:
SCVS OP!!!
In all seriousness, what damage is there in going for an early Baneling Nest? Does the 150/50 investment not do enough to be safe? I don't play Zerg, so I'm not sure about the timings. Are the resulting Banelings an insufficient countermeasure, or does the investment screw you over in regards to some other intense timing push? Couldn't you simply leave a single Zergling outside their front and morph 5 lings into Banelings back home along with making a few more sets? Would that simply not produce enough units to defend with? I'm personally not seeing a huge difference between this and being forced to go for a Robo Fac in PvT to defend against potential Banshees. I could very well be wrong, though. Is the response more intense than just building a Bane Nest and building an army once their push leaves their base? Throwing down the banelings nest blindly is really detrimental. I mean, in most cases against T, it is necessary eventually but think about it this way. That 150/50 could pretty much be your Lair. And your Lair is your key to tech. It's like telling a Protoss player to blindly open 2gate EVERY time instead of 1gate into cybercore. It severely halts your tech path as well as forces you into using your early aggression to try to justify it being there.
You mean like protoss are forced to get a blind robo + observer (200/100 + 50/100) every game against terran. Which could be a TC or stargate + upgrade or phoenix/VR. Kinda sucks to have a BO forced on you huh? Terran are really the only race that gets to just sit behind its wall and make whatever opening it wants. So frustrating.
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its not even an anti-fast expand build, its nearly as good vs pool first
they can have 7-9 marines at your choke before speed finishes even if you 14 gas 14 pool, means you have to make constant lings off of pool first to just barely defend the rush, and the thing is if they scout you making pure lings they just put down a command center and are way ahead. even if you completely stop the rush you have a bunch of useless zerglings and they have more workers than you, and you have a late hatch.
its a build that can punish anything thats not purely defensive, but it sacrifices like 1 scv of economy.
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I don't see why zergs are having a problem with this. 14 hatchpool then 15 olgas 6 lings as pool pops have 1 dronepatrol a double bunker wallin and depending when he hits some ppl wait for a ton of marines you just get a spinecrawler and save your energy for transfuse to by time for speed to finish. maybe it's because i'm a micro oriented played, but i find this foxer style play a free win
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On November 23 2010 17:42 peachsncream wrote:
I don't see why zergs are having a problem with this. 14 hatchpool then 15 olgas 6 lings as pool pops have 1 dronepatrol a double bunker wallin and depending when he hits some ppl wait for a ton of marines you just get a spinecrawler and save your energy for transfuse to by time for speed to finish. maybe it's because i'm a micro oriented played, but i find this foxer style play a free win
The problem is your counter is countered harder by the terran simply not attacking. Or feigning an attack forcing zerg to make more lings/banelings when they should be making drones. Or attacking at an odd time like haypros game on scrap station.
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I'm a toss player, but I really dont understand the QQ that zergs are doing.
Late game Terran vs Zerg (or even Toss vs Zerg for that matter) is insane. It doesnt matter what the terran does. Zerg will throw away their cheap armies for an even trade in terms of cost, and then rebuild their scary endgame force and proceed to mop-up the remaining terran forces. And Artosis and Tasteless will proceed to swing by the zerg's nuts and say "WOW WHAT INSANE MACRO PLAY", when every 2000+ zergs do this shit easily once they reach endgame safely. The onus is on Terran and Toss to NOT allow zergs to reach that point in an even fashion, otherwise they will just get rolled over.
If zerg wants to be safe with early game expansions, they need to take late game nerfs. Otherwise they will continue winning tournaments left and right and only fools will believe this nonsense that "All zerg players are 10x more skilled than other races".
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It's either that or a standard build that loses 90% of the time.
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On November 23 2010 17:41 Durn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 17:36 busdriver wrote:On November 23 2010 17:25 Epoch wrote:
14 hatch is nonsense and I'm glad terrans found ways to punish it. For a while all zergs were doing is 14 hatch, being completely safe, make like 2 zerglings a million drones. Hatch zlings and banelings when terran pushes out, because they have to push or they will lose, as it is their responsibility to be the aggressor since their late game sucks. And then BAM, wipe your entire army if u make 1 micro mistake. Once that first armies gone its game over. Now that was lame.
Now zergs have to maybe make a spawning pool first occasionally, and when they make that spawning pool they need to produce units for defense. Sounds good 2 me. Agreed. 14 Hatch is so greedy. I mean the correct response to seeing a 2nd DEFENSELESS base of any race should be: "lets go ******* kill it". I mean if you can't counter a FE with basically an all-in timing push/rush than that's ridiculous. There has to be a downside/risk to FE. Zerg should have to make some fighting units before an expansion just like everyone else. I know the races are different, but as protoss if I were to Nexus before gateway or forge I'd get rolfstomped everytime. If I see a terran CC go down at 15 I immediately send my first few units to force it to at least lift off. I don't know if I necessarily agree with that mentality. When you see a very early undefended second base, you have 2 options as far as I see. You can push into it, or you can take your second as well. It's not like theyr'e suddenly going have an army to counter yours and most races can expand later than Zerg and be fine. And really, I'd favor my chances as a 2 base Terran versus a 2 base Zerg than trying to crush his FE with a shotty timing attack. It just relies on your macro being better than the Zerg players and finding a strong timing to hit the Zerg with.
My general strategy (I play protoss) is to do the opposite of the other player. He wants to macro - then I timing push the heck out of him. If he wants to timing push, then I want to expand and make just enough to barely survive and then when my economy kicks in I'll win easy. My logic is that it's really hard to outmacro as protoss. Terran have mules, drones can be made by the dozen - chronoboost is nice, but it just doesn't keep up (especially if i want to boost an upgrade or warpgate tech).
Just my probably flawed strategic mindset. I guess I feel that protoss needs T3 units to win a mid-long game - and I get scared when other races macro because I know they'll pull way ahead in economy unless I pull a day9 expand every 4 minutes type build.
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You guys need to take whatever Artosis says with a grain of salt ( or ignore it preferably ). He is so incredibly biased and whiny it taints his commentating. In season 1 he complained every single episode about not enough zergs in the Tournament. For season 3 he said 'to not worry about it'. Number of zergs in season 1? 16. Number of Protoss in season 3? 12.
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Definitely going to try this against a Z next time I roll T in 1v1.
Spoilers:
The games I saw looked broken as hell. Rainbow would've won if he was on any other map than Shakuras he just waited a bit too long imo, and the rush distance didn't work.
This could easily cause a nerf to SCV/Mules in my opinion. SCV health makes this way harder to stop for Zerg, marines deal the damage and SCVs tank it. You have mules back home to make up for the ~8ish SCVS you sent and you can still be ahead in econ.
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EPT
