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Moonling
United States987 Posts
On November 23 2010 16:59 Koshi wrote: I think the next step will be 15 hatch inside the base. Popping some lings/blings, expand after that and saturate it instantly. Really... thats intersting http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155749 | ||
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Alay
United States660 Posts
On November 23 2010 17:42 IdrA wrote: its not even an anti-fast expand build, its nearly as good vs pool first they can have 7-9 marines at your choke before speed finishes even if you 14 gas 14 pool, means you have to make constant lings off of pool first to just barely defend the rush, and the thing is if they scout you making pure lings they just put down a command center and are way ahead. even if you completely stop the rush you have a bunch of useless zerglings and they have more workers than you, and you have a late hatch. its a build that can punish anything thats not purely defensive, but it sacrifices like 1 scv of economy. Do you think a fast baneling nest or a fast roach transition into reverse pressure with the roaches would be a viable response to this sort of pressure? | ||
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
Terrans seem to be even doing this against Protoss. it's like Terran forgot how to expand or considers late game impossible to win. none of these openings setup for an expansion. or atleast as IdrA put it. they only expand if you over commit to defending it. so far. even tho it's only the 2nd day and it's the ro64. the games i've watched have been the worst games since beta. just marines marines. pull all scvs. it's ok i've got mules. more marines. all in. win or lose gg. next game. i wish i had something more profound to say but i just feel sick in the stomach every game. | ||
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
If you dont scout it you lose even if you pool first. Terrans wall off and kill the scouting overlord, since it's really easy to know where the OL will come from. Some maps you basically cant scout the entire base with a slow OL even if they dont try actively deny it Edit: Im sitting at 2k and play terrans around the same range. Every ZvT I play is like this. I either scout it and throw tons of slow lings at the problem, or the T denies my scouting and walks over my base. I never 14 hatch. | ||
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busdriver
United States49 Posts
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klauz619
453 Posts
On November 23 2010 17:56 MavercK wrote: i think this trend is disgusting. it makes me not even want to watch the GSL Terrans seem to be even doing this against Protoss. it's like Terran forgot how to expand or considers late game impossible to win. none of these openings setup for an expansion. or atleast as IdrA put it. they only expand if you over commit to defending it. so far. even tho it's only the 2nd day and it's the ro64. the games i've watched have been the worst games since beta. just marines marines. pull all scvs. it's ok i've got mules. more marines. all in. win or lose gg. next game. i wish i had something more profound to say but i just feel sick in the stomach every game. You don't seem to mind when zerg wins 90% of the time just spamming mutas and banelings if terran doesn't all in. Has anyone tried something like this as protoss? I feel like probes are weaker than SCVs, but maybe that's just because SCVs are all boxy and tough looking while probes look like...well...probes. Plus I don't think the "pew-pew-pew" stalkers shooting from behind the probes would really do very much damage. I guess zealots would be more appropriate. Be interesting to see. Stalker damage vs light is atrocious. Zealots are melee so you don't get the meatshield benefit, it's possible you actually block the zealot out with probes. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On November 23 2010 17:56 Alay wrote: Do you think a fast baneling nest or a fast roach transition into reverse pressure with the roaches would be a viable response to this sort of pressure? the problem with that is its so easy to nullify hatch tech aggression, they put the barracks at the choke anyway so they have a thick wallin ready for banelings and 1-2 bunkers makes offensive roaches useless. the whole point is that this build requires an overwhelming response from z and its really easy for t to just make that response a waste of money. | ||
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Craton
United States17234 Posts
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MavercK
Australia2181 Posts
On November 23 2010 17:58 klauz619 wrote: You don't seem to mind when zerg wins 90% of the time just spamming mutas and banelings if terran doesn't all in. that wasn't a very interesting dynamic either. but atleast it was midgame and already multiple bases. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On November 23 2010 17:57 busdriver wrote: Has anyone tried something like this as protoss? I feel like probes are weaker than SCVs, but maybe that's just because SCVs are all boxy and tough looking while probes look like...well...probes. Plus I don't think the "pew-pew-pew" stalkers shooting from behind the probes would really do very much damage. I guess zealots would be more appropriate. Be interesting to see. If protoss had mules, then you would see this happening. | ||
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Irrelevant
United States2364 Posts
or C) they start using bigger maps in which case all races will FE every game... | ||
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Sniffy
Australia290 Posts
On November 23 2010 17:58 klauz619 wrote: You don't seem to mind when zerg wins 90% of the time just spamming mutas and banelings if terran doesn't all in. There are lots of T's who know how to macro. Just because you dont doesnt mean its not possible. Late game Biomech terran is awesome and the ZvTs that end up like that are incredibly fun and are dead even | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On November 23 2010 17:48 Piledriver wrote: If zerg wants to be safe with early game expansions, they need to take late game nerfs. Otherwise they will continue winning tournaments left and right and only fools will believe this nonsense that "All zerg players are 10x more skilled than other races". This is a terrible way to view the problem. If there are huge problems favoring zerg late game and terran early game then those problems don't balance eachother out. They both need to be fixed. | ||
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
On November 23 2010 17:25 Epoch wrote: 14 hatch is nonsense and I'm glad terrans found ways to punish it. For a while all zergs were doing is 14 hatch, being completely safe, make like 2 zerglings a million drones. Hatch zlings and banelings when terran pushes out, because they have to push or they will lose, as it is their responsibility to be the aggressor since their late game sucks. And then BAM, wipe your entire army if u make 1 micro mistake. Once that first armies gone its game over. Now that was lame. Now zergs have to maybe make a spawning pool first occasionally, and when they make that spawning pool they need to produce units for defense. Sounds good 2 me. You clearly have deep understanding of this game. To others, i would wait for Idra actually...he is aware of this build, and he has been working on it. So i assume that we will see the right way to counter it from him, if no1 else before. Zerg will have to keep going for hatch between 14-21 thats for sure and keep droning as hard as possible. Banelings might not even be an easy answer to this build, because marine/scv micro is getting really good even at mid diamond lvl. | ||
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On November 23 2010 18:02 FabledIntegral wrote: If you scout 2rax is it really that bad to get two spines instead of one? Yeah your econ isn't so great but I would assume you'd still be ahead considering it's 2rax and you're on two base (kinda like how vs 2gate you could cut drones for a long time until you drone pumped and would still be ahead). This is coming from a T who doesn't ever do this strat. I would say if you throw down 2 spines, and make some combination of speedling/roach/baneling in response to every time you see 2 early barracks yes zerg would be very far behind. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On November 23 2010 17:59 MavercK wrote: that wasn't a very interesting dynamic either. but atleast it was midgame and already multiple bases. Funny how it's fair if Terran loses badly in the midgame, but unfair and in need of fixing when Terran dominates in the early game. Don't expect Terran players (myself included) to not be highly aggressive early game. The current mid and late game dynamic just doesn't favor Terran so we have to compensate for that in the early game. Not doing that just so 'that there is a midgame' means 90% of the ZvT and PvT games would be incredibly one-sided. You play to win, not to cater to the opponent. As for 14 hatch, it's an FE/Economic opening. Regardless of race or even matchup, economic opening vs early aggression is always very risky. The simple response is not to go 14 hatch and go something like 20 hatch instead. | ||
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StarcraftMan
Canada507 Posts
Zerg gets to mid game = GG for Terran It's sad that Terran has to gamble everything at the beginning to prevent Zerg from getting to roaches or mid-game. Blizzard really needs to do some tweaking because these Terran strats are simply gimmicks to avoid an inevtiable mid-game to late-game loss to Zerg. | ||
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Durn
Canada360 Posts
On November 23 2010 17:58 IdrA wrote: the problem with that is its so easy to nullify hatch tech aggression, they put the barracks at the choke anyway so they have a thick wallin ready for banelings and 1-2 bunkers makes offensive roaches useless. the whole point is that this build requires an overwhelming response from z and its really easy for t to just make that response a waste of money. I think the real abuse stems from this point where T can just as easily punish the Z compensating so hard. Do you think this will be as detrimental to gameplay as the 6rax reaper opening? It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where Zerg can go "oh ****, if I do A + B, it'll counter this marine/scv pressure." due to how early the pressure comes and how few tech options are open to Z at that time. | ||
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
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