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I had a serious itch when the barracks after supply nerf happened because it gave rise to many zergs flat out giving up on early game in TvZ (14 hatch) on almost every map except for Steppes, and even on steppes many still considered it.
Now I don't think build order wins are interesting. However I don't think a hatch first build should be safe on most maps... and if it's safe it should be only because there is such a distance between both players, that both could go very greedy builds if that's what they chose to do.
What match of the GSL is sparking this discussion? If anything Zerg seem to be doing fine so far, if anything we've already seen one major upset.
+ Show Spoiler +Rainbow getting knocked out by a no-picture guy... Liquibet recession number 2!
That being said, I'm not advocating for larger maps... Large maps lead to longer games, but I don't think it's more balanced as a result or that it's more interesting to watch.
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I think expanding on 14-15 supply without any tech structure should never be 100% safe for any race
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If its something you do in reaction to something your opponent does it is not cheese by definition. There is nothing wrong in seeing a your opponent overextending himself and exploiting a window opportunity. You should really try it yourself. I predict 14 hatch will need more spine crawlers to defend, delaying the build's economic advantage for a while or become one of those 'mixing it' build like 14 nexus or 14 CC was in Broodwar.
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On November 24 2010 00:44 susySquark wrote:Show nested quote +A zerg needs to have the equivalent of one hatchery (without injects) constantly building drones just to keep up with a CC/Nexus constantly building workers. False - larvae spawn faster than the build time of probes/SCV's/drones. Larvae every 15 secs, probe every 17 secs.
I think you're playing semantics here.
In theory a non-injected hatchery can make 8drones per 7scvs, but then when you count that you need to burn larvae on overlords, and one for each building you make, it quickly adds-up in the early game.
In the example of a 14pool with ASAP Queen, the first inject will come about 40sec later than a standard 15 OC's mule. By the time the 4 larvae spawn, the MULE already farmed 200mineral. It will take 2 minutes for these 4 drones just to pay for their own cost.
Again, I'm not advocating that 14Hatch should be a norm. But when Zerg take that gamble it's not to be ahead of a Terran, it's just to be able to keep up with him.
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On November 24 2010 01:06 Alexj wrote:
I think expanding on 14-15 supply without any tech structure should never be 100% safe for any race
Agree. And also agree that its not cheese.
Zerg has no innate right to go 14 hatch without any chance of penalty. T scouts the greedy build and punishes the Z, its a reactive opening.
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On November 24 2010 01:06 Alexj wrote:
I think expanding on 14-15 supply without any tech structure should never be 100% safe for any race
Well this would be right if Zerg would have a solid 1-base-play too, but they don't.
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Just how big a difference is it from going 14 hatch to doing something like the 14 Pool/14 Gas for early speedlings (that was standard just a few months ago?) Or expanding behind early Roaches, or something else? And what do Zergs do PvZ (where 14-hatch can get rocked by Zealot/Cannon or 2-Gate)?
There are lots of good Zergs in the tournament yet to play, I suspect someone will have figured it out by the Ro16 or so.
One criticism of Korean players is that they tend to stick to builds for too long, even when it's clear they're not working.
A lot of people have said its hard to scout, I need to point out that in most 2-rax builds Terran cuts the 'standard' 13 Refinery to get his second rax up. Zerg should be able to scout this before the Marine is out. I think Zerg should put down a Baneling nest if he scouts no gas (and delaying Lair is fine, as even with a double gas at 15/16-ish Banshee cloak will be delayed, as well.)
(A no-gas Terran might also be going for a very fast FE, but Baneling nest will punish that, too.)
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On November 24 2010 00:44 susySquark wrote:I'm of the opinion that Zergs shouldn't be able to get away with 14 hatching any more than Protosses or Terrans can get away with 15 Nexus/CC. Its just greedy, and you hardly lose anything with pool first since you'll be able to build your first queen a little earlier. Show nested quote +A zerg needs to have the equivalent of one hatchery (without injects) constantly building drones just to keep up with a CC/Nexus constantly building workers. False - larvae spawn faster than the build time of probes/SCV's/drones. Larvae every 15 secs, probe every 17 secs.
You also forget that I lose a drone every time I build a building and every 8th larva has to go toward an overlord.
There is no situation that a 1 hatch Zerg is fine in ZvT or ZvP.
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Maybe blizzard should just make a better map pool with more maps like Shakuras...that would solve a lot of issues.
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How do you scout this build? Terran makes a wallin with 1 rax at front
You can't wall with just 1 rax and 1 depot.
Seeing the lack of gas shows he is spamming marines.
Your derping drone will easily see a 2nd rax before the marine pops.
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Going 14 pool/14 gas delays your hatch by quite a long time. Being behind the Terran on income, and having your upgrade for speedlings that is useless if he doesn't attack, is not a good place to be. Ultimately a zerg can't afford to spend money on zerglings and their upgrades if he wants to be even in the economy game.
But yeah, we might start to see blind baneling nests if there is no early gas, and hyper aggression from the zerg if there's a fast expand from terran. It will be interesting!
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On November 24 2010 01:11 VenerableSpace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 01:06 Alexj wrote:
I think expanding on 14-15 supply without any tech structure should never be 100% safe for any race Agree. And also agree that its not cheese. Zerg has no innate right to go 14 hatch without any chance of penalty. T scouts the greedy build and punishes the Z, its a reactive opening.
How then doess Zerg punish the greedy 14 OC build?
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On November 24 2010 01:19 klauz619 wrote:You can't wall with just 1 rax and 1 depot. Seeing the lack of gas shows he is spamming marines. Your derping drone will easily see a 2nd rax before the marine pops.
yes you can, on the low end of the ramp.
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Sigh....
I know Terran have lot of difficulty pass early game against zerg, but this kind of push are just depressing.
ZvT, in the ( small ) history of Starcraft 2, is all about terran trying to find a new timng push to win instantly again and again and again...
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I fail to see how 14 gas/pool/20 hatch is safer vs this build. So ya you get speed, earlier maybe you can get bling nest fast, but with no creep or spines or queens at expo it will be just as hard to hold if they hit right before your hatch goes up. Worst of you are taking a gamble if you get 14gas/pool then pump lings and expand at 20 while t make 2 marines and continues as normal you are DONE, you will be so behind it is not even close.
More so i bet you all of the top zerg will go 15 hatch and laugh this build in the face. We have seen it start to happen already. So what that some of the weaker zergs died to this all in? Doesnt make it OP. Every loss i have seen to this so far had GLARING mistakes like having 1 spine 6 lings 2 queens vs 12 rines and 10 scvs, or having spine in the back of your natural where they just ignore it.. i mean for real? IF you not prepared you are going to die weather it is 14 hatch or 14 gas/pool.
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14 hatch is still viable on most medium-far position games. What we saw in the GSL was terrible defense by the zergs.
However, I do think a way to fix this would be to either decrease spine crawler build time or create an intermediate stage like a creep colony from BW. This would allow the zerg to start static defense buildup as soon as he sees the marines moving out and finish it on time. If most of the zerg players had 2-3 spine crawlers down, they probably could have held off the attacks, as shown by New Dawn. The zerg econ is slightly damaged by building static defense but nowhere near as much as it would have been if they had to blindly put down 3 spine crawlers very early on. This would make it a lot like the BW TvZ dynamic.
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On November 24 2010 01:22 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 01:11 VenerableSpace wrote:On November 24 2010 01:06 Alexj wrote:
I think expanding on 14-15 supply without any tech structure should never be 100% safe for any race Agree. And also agree that its not cheese. Zerg has no innate right to go 14 hatch without any chance of penalty. T scouts the greedy build and punishes the Z, its a reactive opening. How then doess Zerg punish the greedy 14 OC build? There is no 14OC build, and 15OC is not greedy.
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On November 24 2010 01:34 Enervate wrote:
14 hatch is still viable on most medium-far position games. What we saw in the GSL was terrible defense by the zergs.
However, I do think a way to fix this would be to either decrease spine crawler build time or create an intermediate stage like a creep colony from BW. This would allow the zerg to start static defense buildup as soon as he sees the marines moving out and finish it on time. If most of the zerg players had 2-3 spine crawlers down, they probably could have held off the attacks, as shown by New Dawn. The zerg econ is slightly damaged by building static defense but nowhere near as much as it would have been if they had to blindly put down 3 spine crawlers very early on. This would make it a lot like the BW TvZ dynamic.
except for already way too long discussed conclusion that T late game in sc2 is way weaker than in the former ?
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On November 24 2010 01:36 Pewt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 01:22 Jermstuddog wrote:On November 24 2010 01:11 VenerableSpace wrote:On November 24 2010 01:06 Alexj wrote:
I think expanding on 14-15 supply without any tech structure should never be 100% safe for any race Agree. And also agree that its not cheese. Zerg has no innate right to go 14 hatch without any chance of penalty. T scouts the greedy build and punishes the Z, its a reactive opening. How then doess Zerg punish the greedy 14 OC build? There is no 14OC build, and 15OC is not greedy.
there should be a 14oc build.
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On November 24 2010 01:23 Madkipz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 01:19 klauz619 wrote:How do you scout this build? Terran makes a wallin with 1 rax at front You can't wall with just 1 rax and 1 depot. Seeing the lack of gas shows he is spamming marines. Your derping drone will easily see a 2nd rax before the marine pops. yes you can, on the low end of the ramp.
If he does it on the low ramp then he's practically telling you he's gonna 2rax. Almost no one does that on standard builds.
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EPT
