EPTYour thoughts on new ZvT trend? (GSL 3 spoilers) - Page 8
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
On November 23 2010 22:57 Slayer91 wrote: A mule mines exactly as much as 3 scvs afaik, if its 4 is not a big difference, supply cost isn't that relevant its 1/2 a supply depot. I'll take inject larva or chrono boost over orbital command any day. 3 SCVs also cost 150mineral. | ||
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Lovin
Denmark812 Posts
On November 23 2010 16:46 FataLe wrote: Why patch it? I'm sure Protoss have a far less winrate against the 2 thor rush or the countless variations of the Marine/Banshee/Raven timing push. Those have been around for a while and nothings been done about that. If it's possible to defend without seriously compromising anything after that, it is fine, in blizzards eyes. For example reapers were nerfed because vs Z, Zerg had a hard time defending, yep, but also came out 'behind' after the harass. Actually reapers were nerfed due to a nigh-unbeatable unitcomposition-based build (speedling/Reapers), and that was also the reason given in an interview regarding that patch. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
The only thing you can consider "new" here is that the BO is getting more refined and the pushes becoming more and more devastating as that refinement happens. The only thing zergs are asking for is the same thing terrans have always had: A way to keep the other guy from killing me while I get my econ going. Calling it easy to defend only shows a complete lack of understanding of early-game ZvT. And 14 hatch is no greedier than 14 OC, stop acting like its an unfair advantage, it barely keeps Zerg in the economic race against 14 OC. | ||
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resilve
United Kingdom678 Posts
On November 23 2010 16:35 DonKey_ wrote: TBH I don't it's all that strong of an opener at this point zergs know it and they know how to counter it. If they get even the slightest tip off that the terran are doing it they can prepare easily for it. How do you scout this build? Terran makes a wallin with 1 rax at front - from there it is possible for him to go for this build, and you cant tell it if he denies overlord scouting (assuming overlord can even get there in time - which is impossible on some maps). Therefore you have to assume he is doing it, and not 14 hatch, which means should he choose to expand or tech you are completely shafted. Your cut drones (lings) cannot do anything to the wallin - so you completely killed your econ to cover a build that cant be scouted, just in case. | ||
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noD
2230 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
 30 seems fine, since they build so fast xD. But i guess then terran would abuse worker early even more xD.Problem with the terran macro is they need to throw out so damn much production buildings late game. I don't really want to compare the costs with a zerg. would be like 1/3 mins and 1/20 gas the zerg needs tech included. Another problem is there is just not enough space. and since terran late game units are gas heavy crap and zergs prolly ahead in expos means no chance on getting your high tech out. Problem would be reduce gas cost even further and early game would be extremly hard for zerg, being forced to harass the terran. I think becoming a macro terran would mean saving minerals by reducing the amount of minerals put in defenses, like blocking buildings etc. So you can build non expansion orbitals, since every orbital means you need 5 workers less. With senser towers and a little air fleed you can easily stop any drops nydus etc. While your army pushes slowly forward. Problem is since supply cost of units is so high compared to bw, you can mostly only defend 1 way. which would mean you would have to block every other way the enemy ground army can take. I think lost temple and metalopolis would be pretty good for a macro terran. But since terran is considered to be the micro race as it seems (marines just lose to anything without micro, but are evil with micro), playing macro style terran is as tough as playing a micro style zerg. So i think it will take a while before someone will figure out a nice macro style for terran, just as much as it will take alot of time before zerg players will start to find neat ways to micro. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
There are speedling or roach openings that feel pretty safe. Major issue people are having is that 14 hatch is dieing earlyl, which makes sense because it was risky in the first place. | ||
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
On November 23 2010 16:43 b_unnies wrote: this was done back in GSL Season 2 Finals not exactly "recent" Dude, that was like a week ago. God people can be nearsighted. | ||
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GhostBusters
United States198 Posts
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Toothless`xelrae
94 Posts
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uzas
Croatia52 Posts
On November 23 2010 18:29 avilo wrote: Ok, do you guys really think that out of the blue every top korean Terran just decided that they'd start doing marine/scv all-in variations because it's the "standard thing to do?" Does anyone remember beta waaaaaaaaay back when? Zerg was the strongest race for a reason in korea. It wasn't because lings were too powerful (ok 1 supply roach but ignore that), it wasn't because they had a magical unit composition that beat everything else...it was because every good Zerg knew that IF they could defend to a certain point in the game, they could power drone 20+ workers ahead of their opponent, stack up larva, suicide their army -> remax -> and basically never lose a macro game late game. I do not understand how the majority of people here can look so one dimensionally at all of these TvZ games and say, "oh yeah, they're just punishing greedy Zergs that are 14 hatching" or "they just want to win the game fast." It's more of an underlying problem that all of these pros understand - playing Zerg in a macro game past the 10 minute mark or so is damn tough (if not impossible). As Zerg the goal is always to defend until you are into the macro game, it's very, very difficult to lose ZvT once you reach that point. So this isn't a necessarily "new trend" at all - it's been in the works since the most recent patch, and finally you're starting to see every top T doing their best to usurp the TvZ lategame difficulties by simply all-inning, semi-allining, or feint-all-ining to gain an advantage or win the game outright. It really pains me when people are even bashing intotherainbow saying he played terrible, etc etc. or "why the fuck would he do these 'gimmicky' 'all-in' builds." He's doing them because they are right now the best possible shot at winning TvZ series. Go back over every GSL game and top level TvZ game, as well as other top TvZ games. Do you notice the trend? Terrans usually win around the 10-15 min point (or earlier), or have gained some advantage from an all-in or banshee shinanigans. Sure, every now and then you see someone play a "macro game" vs zerg, like Nada did, but most of the times Terran has lost those. And the times you do see a TvZ go into a "macro game" the Terran absolutely did something to gain a huge advantage early to be even attempting a management game. So yeh...what did people really expect Terrans to do? Roll over and die? These mass marine all-ins and variations are the best possible ways to beat Zerg now. Mech is dead because it gives zerg a free 3rd/4th and then they just mass roach/infestor neural you. This marine stuff is the last stuff possible to take games off of good Zs =/ Amen to this! | ||
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
That's why Zerg early game is so unstable. In the first 2-3 minutes a zerg will have trouble just matching the Terran's SCV and I'm not even considering MULEs. This is also due to the fact that you sacrifice 4-5 drones early to build hatch/pool/extractor/crawlers. That's 200min worth of workers that won't generate any sort of crucial income early on. The tricky part is that you absolutely need that 2nd hatch soon in order to 1) not be larvae starved and 2)keep up with the opponent's economy via superior saturation from 2 bases. And when your opponent also FE, you don't have anything significant enough to pressure him, so you lose your advantage. Edit: I'm not saying 14Hatch is necessary, but you do need an FE and while 14pool/14-16-20 hatch is somewhat easier to defend vs this kind of lame marines+scv all-in, it's harder to defend against later pushes because your crawlers will be late. So the point is that Terran can not only punish you for going 14hatch, but they also will punish you for not doing it. Also there is basically no way for Zerg to know this push is coming because of wall-ins, whereas a Terran can easily know what you're going for by keeping an SCV in your base totally unchallenged until your got your queen and first few lings. Easy for Terran to know if you're going pool or hatch first and react accordingly, while zerg is totally going blind. | ||
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susySquark
United States1692 Posts
A zerg needs to have the equivalent of one hatchery (without injects) constantly building drones just to keep up with a CC/Nexus constantly building workers. False - larvae spawn faster than the build time of probes/SCV's/drones. Larvae every 15 secs, probe every 17 secs. | ||
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KrUtiAL
United States41 Posts
Considering how zerg need to be 1 base ahead vs T/P i really wouldnt call a zerg FE greedy. The fact that T can pull all of their scvs and still be economically safe because of MULEs is ridiculous. Yes i can defend against it but its just annoying. It just seems that Terran just try to find every little Gimmick they can abuse to win especially early on. TvZ is a fun matchup but all these lame all-innish early game strategies make it stupid. | ||
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Dragar
United Kingdom971 Posts
On November 24 2010 00:44 susySquark wrote: I'm of the opinion that Zergs shouldn't be able to get away with 14 hatching any more than Protosses or Terrans can get away with 15 Nexus/CC. Its just greedy, and you hardly lose anything with pool first since you'll be able to build your first queen a little earlier. False - larvae spawn faster than the build time of probes/SCV's/drones. Larvae every 15 secs, probe every 17 secs. You forget chronoboost, mule, and overlords. Despite that, I prefer 13 pool, 16 hatch, but I don't think it makes much difference to defending this push - it's possible it would even be worse, as without creep if the hatch isn't finished, you have no way of defending against marines. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
My level of insight isn't all that high level, but hear me out. A huge reason for getting the fast hatch was that building Hatcheries was the only way of getting creep spread over the chokes. And creep is essential for building static defense in Zerg. And the option of adding static defense in crucial when taking expos; regardless of the race. If you see your opponent trying to timing-attack you, you want to be able to splash the cash and trow some bunkers/cannons/crawlers(sunkens). Now that Zerg has Creep tumors, and later ShittingOverlords, taking expos is much easier because you no longer have to wait for the Hatchery to complete to actually build the defense. Imagine how hard it'd be if Terran had to wait for the CC to complete before they could build bunkers around it. Or same thing with Nexus and Cannons. All in all, I think Zerg may have unexplored potential in slower-hatch openings, and doesn't have to always go for the same I-expand-you-try-to-punish-me metagame. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
[B]On November 24 2010 00:17 FeyFey wrote:[/B I think becoming a macro terran would mean saving minerals by reducing the amount of minerals put in defenses, like blocking buildings etc. So you can build non expansion orbitals, since every orbital means you need 5 workers less. Just some quick math on the OC spam argument. 1 OC costs 550 minerals and grants a mule, which is worth roughly 4 SCVs. To make the equivalent with supply depots and SCVs, it would cost 400 minerals, you would end up with 1 more available supply and 4 more supply used. Apply this to late-game TvZ where thors are running rampant and you have a very scary thought indeed. It costs 150 more minerals initially, but MULEs only last 30 seconds, and that makes them very harass-resistant so long as you don't lose the OC. Then you think about late-game being constantly supply capped and those 4 supply per OC you saved really start to matter. A push that had 8 thors could now have 11 as well as a few extra SCVs due to your "higher" supply cap. Holy shit late-game terran sounds awesome if you could actually get 6 OCs up and running. | ||
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TheOGBlitzKrieg
United States346 Posts
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