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gwombat
Singapore40 Posts
i believe that someone already mentioned this but in the early game spine crawlers are pretty cost effective against marines, one spine crawler is worth 6 marines or so. of course the bigger the numbers get the worse the spine crawlers will perform. it's definitely a cheese and an all-in and the terran will lose if he doesn't do terrible terrible damage. the only thing that differentiates this cheese from any other is that it's easy to do that damage. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On November 23 2010 21:21 Everlong wrote: Blizzard said thay dont want the game to be like "I have a good chance to win untill 12-15 minute mark, than Im screwed.." Now, it seems like TvP and TvZ in particular goes exactly like this. Expect to see some balance tweaks so that we wont see all those all-ins to counter 14 hatch or brainless MMM stimming to death.. So for those guys that say "This is how Terran is designed, deal with it.." sorry, but you are wrong. They (either Blizz or players themself) will make Terran macro play more viable (through patches, units from expansions, etc..) because no one wants to play or watch this kind of stereotype boring play that involves 2-3 units at maximum.. And this idea pisses me off too. The argument that Terrans are behind in late-game macro is so full of holes it's not even funny. MULEs give Terrans the best econ out there. 1 MULE = 4 drones at 150 cost for the OC and 0 supply. Simple math: You payed 150 minerals for 100 minerals worth of units and 4 SUPPLY FREE WORKERS THAT RESPAWN EVERY 30 SECONDS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE KILLED!!! Terran has no reason to be behind in econ as you proceed on to late-game. Everybody should already agree that Terran has the best all-around army, especially in terms of TvZ. The only thing cost-effective against marines is hero banelings. This isn't banelings in general, for the most part you're spending 50/25 on a unit that will do nothing. But every now-and-then, you get 2-3 banelings that take out 10 marines each, those 3 guys made the game possible. The only thing cost-effective vs Thors is Zerglings, and do we really need to go into how badly countered Zerglings are by literally every Terran unit including the Thor? go ahead, open up a unit tester, make 6 thors and 100 zerglings, put the Thors on a wall and watch them win. Incase you missed that 6 Thors can beat 100 zerglings. I could go on, but those are two fine examples, everybody should know that its hard to lose money with ALL terran units when used properly. Then we add to that bases that can't be easily harassed or taken. Turrets for inexplicably twice as good as photon cannons and spore crawlers. A bunker with 4 stimmed-marines can out-dps 2 of any other static defense in the game as well as give back a 100 mineral refund when it's not needed anymore. Anyway, I gotta go to work so I'll stop with pointing out holes in this "no late-game macro" argument and just leave it at this: Terran has no late-game macro because they have no idea how to play past the marine/marauder all-in push phase. There really is no reason to try and tech past. | ||
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dakalro
Romania525 Posts
On November 23 2010 21:31 Jermstuddog wrote: http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=102 Here is a replay of me going 13 pool 15 hatch and still getting stomped. Lings/queen aren't early enough to stop the blind bunker wall-in, as its a no-brainer for my Terran opponent because 1-base Zerg is auto-lose. I manage to actually kill the bunkers without losing a hatch, though the damage is already enough that i can't hold back the stim marine/marauder push 5 min later. The best part? His macro is TERRIBLE and I am still literally 8 workers ahead of me after his retarded bunker rush. At no point in the game do I have a better econ than him. I think I'm going back to hatch first, even pool first doesn't stop the bunker nonsense. ps: lol at me rage Someone actually already gave very good advice on this, queen built on expo, creep first on expo (no bunker wallin, extra speed). | ||
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Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Germany2959 Posts
Hell I even get Banelings but still cannot win. Having Zerglingspeed for 100 gas and than building banelings while tryting to get a lot Zerglings up as well is just so hard. And then you got 6 banelings when he approaches and... you kill most of his SCVs with the Banelings and then... just die to his Marines. :f It's not impossible to hold off both it requires kinda blind counter. Did anyone watch FruitDealer vs Foxer in this Gstar games? He kinda did everything right and still lost with tons of Banelings/Zerglings and 3 Base against pure Marine, Rauder and Medivacs. | ||
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suejak
Japan545 Posts
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out4blood
United States313 Posts
On November 23 2010 16:41 Kraz.Del wrote: Blizz can't even patch it; the metagame is moving waaaaayyyy too fast. This is why they shouldn't be so fast to patch things. They should wait for the metagame to stabilize more. Zerg were already figuring out how to beat Terrans in GSL Season 1, but the patch came out right before Season 2. They completely broke reapers, and now roaches are now far to strong against Protoss. People are now starting to complain that marines are OP and despite all this, we will probably have our third Zerg GSL champion. | ||
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dakalro
Romania525 Posts
On November 23 2010 21:56 Jermstuddog wrote: Terran has no late-game macro because they have no idea how to play past the marine/marauder all-in push phase. There really is no reason to try and tech past. Great insult there. Actually assuming, without even thinking how illogical what you say is, that no terran player was smart enough to have ever ever thought about macro games and they're all wrong and you as a zerg are smarter and somehow found the holy grail ... I applaud you. All terrans should stop rushing and put together each of their 1 neuron and reach a higher level of consciousness that you seem to have and develop proper macro strategies. I bow to the almighty zerg overmind. Puny humans should learn from your infinite wisdom oh mighty Jermstuddog | ||
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guitarizt
United States1492 Posts
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noD
2230 Posts
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Darhaja
United States108 Posts
On November 23 2010 22:05 dakalro wrote: Great insult there. Actually assuming, without even thinking how illogical what you say is, that no terran player was smart enough to have ever ever thought about macro games and they're all wrong and you as a zerg are smarter and somehow found the holy grail ... I applaud you. All terrans should stop rushing and put together each of their 1 neuron and reach a higher level of consciousness that you seem to have and develop proper macro strategies. I bow to the almighty zerg overmind. Puny humans should learn from your infinite wisdom oh mighty Jermstuddog Great insult there... Oh wait. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On November 23 2010 22:08 noD wrote: I think it´s just fair, there is no way building a second base and being safe was fair ... Too bad that if you stay on one base you lose the game anyway... Blizzard should fix this soon,it shouldn't be about "OMG i gotta stay alive for 10 minutes" | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On November 23 2010 22:03 out4blood wrote: This is why they shouldn't be so fast to patch things. They should wait for the metagame to stabilize more. Zerg were already figuring out how to beat Terrans in GSL Season 1, but the patch came out right before Season 2. They completely broke reapers, and now roaches are now far to strong against Protoss. People are now starting to complain that marines are OP and despite all this, we will probably have our third Zerg GSL champion. I would absolutely say that it's probably too early to patch the game in response to this build, but the last patch they waited plenty long for. Despite FruitDealer winning GSL1, zergs were not starting to figure out the matchup. It was a total fluke that FruitDealer won. I am pretty sure he was only zerg in top 8. In the RO4 he all-inned vs protoss and got lucky. Vs hopetorture hopetorture played absolutely terrible while fruitdealer played perfect. Season 2 had 3 Terrans in the top 4 and none of them were using these new builds. Absolutely not proof that zerg was patched too early. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
What I'm saying is Terrans have no incentive to pursue long games. Why spend 40 minutes playing, giving yourself the opportunity to make mistakes when you can just 3 rax marine rush and win 60% of the time? If anything, top terrans are SMARTER for abusing the broke-ass POS that is the marine to win games before they even start. Kudos to those guys. | ||
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dakalro
Romania525 Posts
On November 23 2010 22:21 Jermstuddog wrote: I didn't say no terran is smart enough and I'm not insulting EVERY terran players ability to playlong drawn-out games. What I'm saying is Terrans have no incentive to pursue long games. Why spend 40 minutes playing, giving yourself the opportunity to make mistakes when you can just 3 rax marine rush and win 60% of the time? If anything, top terrans are SMARTER for abusing the broke-ass POS that is the marine to win games before they even start. Kudos to those guys. "Terran has no late-game macro because they have no idea how to play past the marine/marauder all-in push phase." Since the 2 rax push is not guaranteed victory I'm sure someone did try other ways to win games so to say they have no idea is a bit much. Problem is those I've seen try to win a late game (not talking about mid game since that's getting close to balanced, prolly still favoring terran if following a successful harass) have pretty much always failed. I think the point most terrans are trying to make is to not expect to get away with a safe expand without investing at least that much minerals in defense (10+ lings, creep block @ natural so you block the wallin, queen at natural). | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
And NesTea showed us you can hold it off, always, if you're baller enough. He fast-expanded on close positions blind on Metalopolis in the GSL2 finals, vs Foxer himself, despite losing two games just before that doing the same thing. That is unequivocally insane. That is an extreme example. That is not something I recommend. But he had learned how to deal with it, and comfortably crushed the all-in he suckered in with this. So you can definitely deal with it under more normal FE conditions (shakuras, scrap, x-position anything). Yes, Artosis was just plain wrong. I am astounded. I have an anti-foxer build for every map I play - including Steppes and Blistering. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On November 23 2010 22:25 DaemonX wrote: Frankly it looks to me like the Terran equivalent of a 4-gate. And NesTea showed us you can hold it off, always, if you're baller enough. He fast-expanded on close positions blind on Metalopolis in the GSL2 finals, vs Foxer himself, despite losing two games just before that doing the same thing. That is unequivocally insane. That is an extreme example. That is not something I recommend. But he had learned how to deal with it, and comfortably crushed the all-in he suckered in with this. So you can definitely deal with it under more normal FE conditions (shakuras, scrap, x-position anything). Yes, Artosis was just plain wrong. I am astounded. No you are wrong, what Foxer used was an unrefined version of this all-in. He executed it very poorly too. The GSL2 final really is not a good example. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On November 23 2010 21:56 Jermstuddog wrote: The argument that Terrans are behind in late-game macro is so full of holes it's not even funny. MULEs give Terrans the best econ out there. 1 MULE = 4 drones at 150 cost for the OC and 0 supply. Simple math: You payed 150 minerals for 100 minerals worth of units and 4 SUPPLY FREE WORKERS THAT RESPAWN EVERY 30 SECONDS REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE KILLED!!! Terran has no reason to be behind in econ as you proceed on to late-game. . Protoss has 10 probes more most of the time. Zerg 20. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On November 23 2010 22:34 Dente wrote: Protoss has 10 probes more most of the time. Zerg 20. Mules compensate well for that fact, and you can force a zerg into not making drones, you can't do that to a Terran. But anyway, I'm not saying there is an imbalance or anything like that. | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
From liquipedia: Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise Emphasis mine. Seriously, nothing about 2 rax is any of that, even when you pull your workers. It's just good against hatch first, pulling your workers is the right way to attack in many one-base all-in situations as scvs are pretty good about buffering marines. + Show Spoiler + This also proved true in the all in against NEXgenius in a TvP. People should get warnings on TL for destroying the language of RTS. | ||
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