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On November 24 2010 03:50 Kurumi wrote:
It's pretty scary that ZvT evolves in short,boring link.
Terran finds great all-in->New strats weaken the all-in,but are not 100% proof->Patch comes out->Macro games again happen->Terran finds great all-in
This looks like Terrans infest planets,takeover the living creatures and use them in their army,while Zerg thrives in huge cities made out of skyscrapers.
It should be like
Macro games->Zerg/Terran finds new exciting strat->Macro games are full of improvisation and emotion->Terran/Zerg finds the counter->Macro games with less bland game play->Go again like this for three times->ZvT is great matchup->Expansion comes out-> Yeah You guessed right. Macro games.
macro games will be more prevalent when the maps get bigger.
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On November 23 2010 22:16 Elementsu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 22:08 noD wrote:
I think it´s just fair, there is no way building a second base and being safe was fair ... Too bad that if you stay on one base you lose the game anyway... Blizzard should fix this soon,it shouldn't be about "OMG i gotta stay alive for 10 minutes"
Well that's exactly what protoss have to deal with when they expand quickly. I don't understand why zerg players feel they have a right to a free fast expansion. It shouldn't be safe/easy to expand with 0 army units.
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On November 24 2010 03:12 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 03:02 Coolcatqt wrote:
thanks for trying bronze leaguer :p but zerg cant make every building and tech at once I'm not a bronze leaguer (2200+ diamond). The terrans doing this build are on 1 base. The zergs are on 2 base. 3 spinecrawlers + lings --> some guy (I responded to him) said that the terran will scan and will not attack (+ macro up, LOL). Result: zerg on 2 base, terran on 1 base. Terran can keep on playing on 1 base but if the terran takes his natural, then there is a small window for the zerg to drone drone drone + expand. There is a reason why top korean terrans are doing these kind of builds. I'm saying this for a very long time: a good zerg is not beatable without these kind of "allinstuff". The only reason why terrans were winning before the patch was because of very strong harass. With the roach range changed (bye hellion rush) and the reaper heavy nerfed, the only other harass options are banshees (you die vs a good zerg that builds 3 queens) and hellion drop (good placed overlords and your drop will fail).
whole strength of this build is that zerg doesnt know if you are going all in or expanding, this is why they scan in the first place, guess you never played brood war if you think zerg can just make drones without scouting information 
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The build punishes a zerg for expanding so early, I don't see this as a bad thing. If a Terran goes 14 CC 14 rax a zerg would punish them for it.... (i know it is different but you get my point).
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OC does jack !#!@# if you do it a bit earlier than normal.
Try to 14CC or forge FE and enjoy the 20 roaches knocking on your door before your 3rd barracks is even done building.
Terran can't compete with zerg's double base income + 8 production building ability at the 5 minute mark, so it's easier to just all in and win a decent amount of times.
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On November 24 2010 02:47 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 01:18 rampaeg wrote:
Maybe blizzard should just make a better map pool with more maps like Shakuras...that would solve a lot of issues. YEAH GUY! Would you also suggest we use scrap station multiple times in ZvT series? That'd be just splendid.
you obviously feel scrap station overwhelmingly favors zerg. what features of this map cause you to come to that conclusion?
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Hatch first transitioning into refusing to build static defence is retarded.
The Terran mentality that if the game goes longer than 5 minutes they lose is retarded.
ZvT has the potential to be a great matchup to watch but instead I get treated to Zergs who think they can 14 hatch every game on tiny ass maps and Terrans who refuse to acknowledge that they have really strong timing attacks that dont involve pulling your scvs at the 5 minute mark.
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....The fact that so many people continually think this is only good against 14 hatch blows my mind. Let's say you don't 14 hatch; you pool first and get up lings. The Terran knows this and he wont simply suicide his first few marines if he's smart. If the Terran scouts continued ling production in enough numbers to stop the push all they have to do is put up a CC and fall back w/ the eco advantage and delay their attack a few minutes.
I'm not saying anything is broken or overpowered, but at the moment it's very strong. It's a balancing act though. You have to make juuust enough lings and juuuuust enough spine crawlers. If you make too many and the terran has expanded or began to tech, you're in trouble for that delayed push. If you think you're safe and drone up, the push can come and kill you. Right now it's on the zerg to respond properly and hope they essentially guess correctly as to when the push will actually come.
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On November 24 2010 04:34 AnAngryDingo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 02:47 avilo wrote:On November 24 2010 01:18 rampaeg wrote:
Maybe blizzard should just make a better map pool with more maps like Shakuras...that would solve a lot of issues. YEAH GUY! Would you also suggest we use scrap station multiple times in ZvT series? That'd be just splendid. you obviously feel scrap station overwhelmingly favors zerg. what features of this map cause you to come to that conclusion?
What about insane distance to counter 14hatch? Not to mention how easy it is for Zerg to defend both main and expo at the same time.. Then you've got this close air distance, so if you try to attack Zerg - ops, few (15) mutas are immidiately killing your base.. So to put it together, Zerg is here free to expo at will and you have to stay at your base for the whole game basicly.
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On November 24 2010 04:12 Pewt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 03:32 schimmetje wrote:
I guess things like these are easier than improving your overall game (I really don't buy the whole "it's necessary" thing, Zerg is not dominating as hard as people are suggesting). Personally I expand slightly later anyways, I consider it a flaw in my play which needs to be fixed, but it certainly helps when running into these. As such I don't mind much, though I do hope SC2 will move past the whole "must end it in 10 minutes using the flavor of the month build" thing soon, because.. well it's kind of boring. I would buy this if it were just nobodies doing these builds, but people like RainbOw are not exactly newbies who don't know how to macro (and you'll notice many of the same players who 1base all in every TvZ play very strong macro games in TvT. TvP is sort of 50/50). As I said earlier, the fact that players like RainbOw feel it's necessary to use a coinflip all in build to beat no names is worrying (even on maps like Shakuras which are strongly biased towards macro and against 1base play).
I'm a ITR fan to be honest, but I think he could have done better in other ways. If he indeed felt this was necessary, that's not a comforting thought, as said trend will then likely continue and that kind of sucks. I'm just not sure how much of people feeling it's necessary is based on fact and how much of it is the atmosphere created. For now I'm leaning more towards the latter.
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On November 24 2010 04:21 busdriver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2010 22:16 Elementsu wrote:On November 23 2010 22:08 noD wrote:
I think it´s just fair, there is no way building a second base and being safe was fair ... Too bad that if you stay on one base you lose the game anyway... Blizzard should fix this soon,it shouldn't be about "OMG i gotta stay alive for 10 minutes" Well that's exactly what protoss have to deal with when they expand quickly. I don't understand why zerg players feel they have a right to a free fast expansion. It shouldn't be safe/easy to expand with 0 army units.
Compare the strength of 2 base protoss vs 2 base zerg. Which should be easier to accomplish?
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On November 24 2010 04:21 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 03:50 Kurumi wrote:
It's pretty scary that ZvT evolves in short,boring link.
Terran finds great all-in->New strats weaken the all-in,but are not 100% proof->Patch comes out->Macro games again happen->Terran finds great all-in
This looks like Terrans infest planets,takeover the living creatures and use them in their army,while Zerg thrives in huge cities made out of skyscrapers.
It should be like
Macro games->Zerg/Terran finds new exciting strat->Macro games are full of improvisation and emotion->Terran/Zerg finds the counter->Macro games with less bland game play->Go again like this for three times->ZvT is great matchup->Expansion comes out-> Yeah You guessed right. Macro games. macro games will be more prevalent when the maps get bigger.
ZvT-->Will never be a macro oriented matchup unless Terran late game get's fixed.
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On November 24 2010 04:39 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:34 AnAngryDingo wrote:On November 24 2010 02:47 avilo wrote:On November 24 2010 01:18 rampaeg wrote:
Maybe blizzard should just make a better map pool with more maps like Shakuras...that would solve a lot of issues. YEAH GUY! Would you also suggest we use scrap station multiple times in ZvT series? That'd be just splendid. you obviously feel scrap station overwhelmingly favors zerg. what features of this map cause you to come to that conclusion? What about insane distance to counter 14hatch? Not to mention how easy it is for Zerg to defend both main and expo at the same time.. Then you've got this close air distance, so if you try to attack Zerg - ops, few (15) mutas are immidiately killing your base.. So to put it together, Zerg is here free to expo at will and you have to stay at your base for the whole game basicly.
alright, this makes the map FAIR IMO. we have to travel just as far to get to terran as terran does to us. close air distance works for terran also doing drops in mid-late game. and how is it easier for zerg to defend their main and natural than any other map. long distance between means creep spread is paramount, plus those backdoor rocks(more of an issue vs protoss) also, taking a 3rd can be tricky. and mid-game, you can also break the rocks, leaving an incredibly short distance from base to base.
IMO, terrans just want more maps like steppes of war where they can just tank push a few feet from their natural to the zerg's natural, never allowing the zerg to make drones because of the constant threat of attack with no fear of a counter. or they want/need more maps that are straight up unfair and ABUSIVE such as LT and Kulas. To me, its silly for terrans to complain about the current map pool. All the "Zerg" maps are just the maps that are fair for all the races to compete on, and there are at least 4 maps currently in the pool that BLATANTLY favor terran over zerg. (LT, jungle basin lol, Steppes, and DQ) also, close positions on Metal favor terran too. you can't really argue that this is fact.
i'm not saying there isn't an issue, because there possibly is. a lot of top terrans playing this way IS alarming. i just feel like blaming "zerg maps" as the problem is not correct. there is a much deeper problem at hand if this is the only way for terran to beat zerg in high level play.
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On November 24 2010 04:44 schimmetje wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:12 Pewt wrote:On November 24 2010 03:32 schimmetje wrote:
I guess things like these are easier than improving your overall game (I really don't buy the whole "it's necessary" thing, Zerg is not dominating as hard as people are suggesting). Personally I expand slightly later anyways, I consider it a flaw in my play which needs to be fixed, but it certainly helps when running into these. As such I don't mind much, though I do hope SC2 will move past the whole "must end it in 10 minutes using the flavor of the month build" thing soon, because.. well it's kind of boring. I would buy this if it were just nobodies doing these builds, but people like RainbOw are not exactly newbies who don't know how to macro (and you'll notice many of the same players who 1base all in every TvZ play very strong macro games in TvT. TvP is sort of 50/50). As I said earlier, the fact that players like RainbOw feel it's necessary to use a coinflip all in build to beat no names is worrying (even on maps like Shakuras which are strongly biased towards macro and against 1base play). I'm a ITR fan to be honest, but I think he could have done better in other ways. If he indeed felt this was necessary, that's not a comforting thought, as said trend will then likely continue and that kind of sucks. I'm just not sure how much of people feeling it's necessary is based on fact and how much of it is the atmosphere created. For now I'm leaning more towards the latter. Yeah, I don't know either way for sure, but he used to play more macro based and now he's doing all ins even on maps that are terrible for them, so apparently something or other has convinced him that they're good/necessary. It just bugs me that people are making it sound like the only people who are doing these all ins are newbies who don't really know how to play whereas in reality some of the most accomplished Terrans around are doing them over and over.
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On November 23 2010 16:47 osten wrote:
I think 14 hatch is kind of nessesary for zerg, it's too bad that so much relies on it, it should be quite standard imo..
Funny, it wasn't necessary before they nerfed reapers...
As a Zerg player, I actually find such early expanding to be akin to cheesey all-in builds. In fact, I hope Zerg's keep FE'ing so I can get away with more 8 pools in ZvP 
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On November 24 2010 04:48 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:21 charlie420247 wrote:On November 24 2010 03:50 Kurumi wrote:
It's pretty scary that ZvT evolves in short,boring link.
Terran finds great all-in->New strats weaken the all-in,but are not 100% proof->Patch comes out->Macro games again happen->Terran finds great all-in
This looks like Terrans infest planets,takeover the living creatures and use them in their army,while Zerg thrives in huge cities made out of skyscrapers.
It should be like
Macro games->Zerg/Terran finds new exciting strat->Macro games are full of improvisation and emotion->Terran/Zerg finds the counter->Macro games with less bland game play->Go again like this for three times->ZvT is great matchup->Expansion comes out-> Yeah You guessed right. Macro games. macro games will be more prevalent when the maps get bigger. ZvT-->Will never be a macro oriented matchup unless Terran late game get's fixed.
untill zerg can hold ever possible terran opener we wont EVEN se an attempt at playing the macro game so even if terran "late game" was "fixed" the terrans would still keep allinning because they want to win and if for some reason after these "fixes" zerg cannot win the late game then WHAT HAPPENs then huh? WHAT HAPPENS THEN ?
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On November 24 2010 04:39 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:34 AnAngryDingo wrote:On November 24 2010 02:47 avilo wrote:On November 24 2010 01:18 rampaeg wrote:
Maybe blizzard should just make a better map pool with more maps like Shakuras...that would solve a lot of issues. YEAH GUY! Would you also suggest we use scrap station multiple times in ZvT series? That'd be just splendid. you obviously feel scrap station overwhelmingly favors zerg. what features of this map cause you to come to that conclusion? What about insane distance to counter 14hatch? Not to mention how easy it is for Zerg to defend both main and expo at the same time.. Then you've got this close air distance, so if you try to attack Zerg - ops, few (15) mutas are immidiately killing your base.. So to put it together, Zerg is here free to expo at will and you have to stay at your base for the whole game basicly.
What prevents you from doing a FE as well?
Why would Terran response to 14hatch systematically be "derp derp make 2rax then box all my crap including SCVs and 1A in his base"?
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I really think the underlying problem lies with the way the macro mechanics work. If the game was played a little more like BW, we wouldn't have to see all these flaws. Think of it this way, if Terran didnt have mules and, they wouldn't recover from an allin move. If Zerg didn't have larva inject, Terrans wouldnt complain about lategame play. Same applies to Protoss, if they didn't have Chrono and Warpgates, they wouldn't have to worry about the units being nerfed to the ground due to how fast they would get them.
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On November 24 2010 04:54 Phrencys wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 04:39 Everlong wrote:On November 24 2010 04:34 AnAngryDingo wrote:On November 24 2010 02:47 avilo wrote:On November 24 2010 01:18 rampaeg wrote:
Maybe blizzard should just make a better map pool with more maps like Shakuras...that would solve a lot of issues. YEAH GUY! Would you also suggest we use scrap station multiple times in ZvT series? That'd be just splendid. you obviously feel scrap station overwhelmingly favors zerg. what features of this map cause you to come to that conclusion? What about insane distance to counter 14hatch? Not to mention how easy it is for Zerg to defend both main and expo at the same time.. Then you've got this close air distance, so if you try to attack Zerg - ops, few (15) mutas are immidiately killing your base.. So to put it together, Zerg is here free to expo at will and you have to stay at your base for the whole game basicly. What prevents you from doing a FE as well? Why would Terran response to 14hatch systematically be "derp derp make 2rax then box all my crap including SCVs and 1A in his base"? In my irrelevant mid-diamond experience, if you FE then it's hard to push (on SS specifically) before their muta/bling numbers start getting worrying, by which point it may very well be too late on a generally large map let alone a map where you are practically breathing down each others' necks air-wise. In addition, it can be difficult to punish a Zerg response of taking a third and droning up because you miss the pre-speedling/baneling timing that this 2rax push exploits and thus if anything their units are more cost efficient than yours (even if you have stim etc).
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On November 24 2010 04:55 Musiq wrote:
I really think the underlying problem lies with the way the macro mechanics work. If the game was played a little more like BW, we wouldn't have to see all these flaws. Think of it this way, if Terran didnt have mules and, they wouldn't recover from an allin move. If Zerg didn't have larva inject, Terrans wouldnt complain about lategame play. Same applies to Protoss, if they didn't have Chrono and Warpgates, they wouldn't have to worry about the units being nerfed to the ground due to how fast they would get them.
Exactly. Zerg are so scary lategame because they can recreate an army almost instantly. Terran have no downside to trading SCVs for drones because of MULES. So terran players are always going to try and prevent zerg late game. 3-4 bases with larva inject is so scary why would anyone allow it if they have an option?
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EPT
