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On November 24 2010 05:42 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:41 DooMDash wrote:
I think people are a little bit brain-washed by Artosis's biased commentary. He's obviously a Zerg player and makes it sound like Zerg always has problems and T should always be winning because how powerful their desperate all in is. The guy will stop crying and be biased when he wins 1st place. Which will never happen since he doesn't even break through preliminaries. should just use jason lee + idra to replace him. Idras biased as hell but he barely speaks so it balances out.
On November 23 2010 17:42 IdrA wrote:
its not even an anti-fast expand build, its nearly as good vs pool first
they can have 7-9 marines at your choke before speed finishes even if you 14 gas 14 pool, means you have to make constant lings off of pool first to just barely defend the rush, and the thing is if they scout you making pure lings they just put down a command center and are way ahead. even if you completely stop the rush you have a bunch of useless zerglings and they have more workers than you, and you have a late hatch.
its a build that can punish anything thats not purely defensive, but it sacrifices like 1 scv of economy.
On November 23 2010 17:58 IdrA wrote:
the problem with that is its so easy to nullify hatch tech aggression, they put the barracks at the choke anyway so they have a thick wallin ready for banelings and 1-2 bunkers makes offensive roaches useless. the whole point is that this build requires an overwhelming response from z and its really easy for t to just make that response a waste of money.
His points should be well taken, especially since this is 15 pages of people repeating the same thing instead of reading.
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On November 24 2010 05:22 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:07 DooMDash wrote:On November 24 2010 05:06 xarthaz wrote:
The solution is more requirements to orbital. in SC1 you need the academy which is made after u get ur expo cc up and make second rax & gaz, so all ins cant be done with perfect scouting info like the 2rax in sc2, thus they maintain more risk and are tried less often. The solution isn't nerf T, it's buff T's late game so they aren't desperate to win early. It's not even like this all in 2 rax stuff works all that often, even in the GSL it's only working about 50% of the time. There are two fundamental flaws to your understanding of the game here. 1) any strategy that works even 51% of the time is a winning strategy. Many poker pros could explain this simple concept to you. The other problem is you're considering 14 hatch as some sort of advantage. There is no economic advantage to 14 hatch, it is purely positional. Your economic advantage won't kick in for another 5 min when you have 2 queens spamming spawn larva. By that time it is completely feasible for a terran to have his expo set up as well and we're back to square 1.
And there's a fundamental flaw in your understanding as well (and as a poker player i'll tell you why), just because something is a winning strategy does not mean it's the most optimal thing to do. The fact is, at this moment in the evolution of SC2 the OC into Marine/SCV seems like the most optimal strategy in early TvZ when your opponent continues to go 14 hatch.
Another question I pose to you would be this, if 14 hatch isn't an advantage, why does every Zerg love going hatch before pool if they believe it's possible? I don't know about you but I only make moves that I believe give me an advantage.
If Terran late game was buffed you would see less all in 14 hatch counters by T because it would no longer be the optimal thing to do.
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Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence.
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On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence.
/signed. Its a lame strategy and its overpowered
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if a zerg wants to blind fast expand, this is what they deserve
spawning fool before hatchery would fix this
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On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence.
Yeah everytime zerg loses a new patch should be addressed so that the zerg who haven't improved at all since beta retains their 65% win rate. Seems to be the trend now.
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On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence.
I agree that its strong and stupid and wish it didn't exist, but it shouldn't be necessary and with the current state of the game it seems like it is. T can't win late game and this seems to be the strongest early attack possible, which makes it the dominant strategy at the moment.
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On November 24 2010 05:22 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:07 DooMDash wrote:On November 24 2010 05:06 xarthaz wrote:
The solution is more requirements to orbital. in SC1 you need the academy which is made after u get ur expo cc up and make second rax & gaz, so all ins cant be done with perfect scouting info like the 2rax in sc2, thus they maintain more risk and are tried less often. The solution isn't nerf T, it's buff T's late game so they aren't desperate to win early. It's not even like this all in 2 rax stuff works all that often, even in the GSL it's only working about 50% of the time. The other problem is you're considering 14 hatch as some sort of advantage. There is no economic advantage to 14 hatch, it is purely positional. Your economic advantage won't kick in for another 5 min when you have 2 queens spamming spawn larva. By that time it is completely feasible for a terran to have his expo set up as well and we're back to square 1.
How does 14 hatch NOT give the Zerg an advantage? It means an early expansion, and if un-contested by the Terran the Zerg will have a fully saturated expo while the Terrans is either just beginning his or floating it over. Thats an advantage if you ask me that shouldn't be automatic and should come with HEAVY risk that both the other races take when they do an early FE build.
On November 24 2010 05:56 Coolcatqt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:51 FlamingTurd wrote:
Personally I think this new T rush is ridiculously strong and I really hope this gets patched out of existence. /signed. Its a lame strategy and its overpowered
wouldn't that mean that 14 hatch is OP then since it gives the Zerg a huge unfair advantage? Maybe you guys should practice what you preach because last time I heard a Terran complain everyone told them to give it time, this strategy hasn't even been out that long and with a few spines it can be held off easily.
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Why should terran get a patch nerf because they only have one option vs the most common used zerg build which gives the Z a massive advantage if T doesn't all-in to stop it?
Agreed it boring to watch, well the fault is just as much on the zerg going 14hatch every game so that the T has to go 2rax every game to try and counter it.
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On November 24 2010 05:42 klauz619 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 05:41 DooMDash wrote:
I think people are a little bit brain-washed by Artosis's biased commentary. He's obviously a Zerg player and makes it sound like Zerg always has problems and T should always be winning because how powerful their desperate all in is. The guy will stop crying and be biased when he wins 1st place. Which will never happen since he doesn't even break through preliminaries. should just use jason lee + idra to replace him. Idras biased as hell but he barely speaks so it balances out.
Leave Him alone he is great commentator and good zerg, Not he best due to him switching into casting too much (and not being Korean  ). But very good never the less better then 99% of LT forum users.
That said his crying like a little girl about this build is getting annoying.
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You know, there was a thread about protosses bad performance in GSL. I'm a protoss and soon I was convinced that something is wrong with PvZ. However then I watched the GSL Ro64 matches that have been played this far, and I feel more and more that PvZ just might be fine. True, none of the PvZ players on either side have been miracle workers, and I think that just might be the reason why there has not been that much protoss success. YES I KNOW saying "protoss just need to learn and play" is not constructive, but I have to agree. The protoss in GSL made some SERIOUS mistakes that common sense could have prevented. For example: having Only 1 pylon powering all unit buildings. If there had been even one more, a full round of units would have followed and the protoss would not have died ( anyproPrime vs  TheBestfOu ), I suspect.
I watched some of the PvZ protoss victories from both GSL and some from pro protoss players, and my victory percent versus my own level zerg shot up from near 0%. I feel more and more like that I psyched myself into believing "it's imbalanced - there is nothing I can do" and thus just gave up every time I met a zerg. Not push "surrender" button, but gave up mentally.
So what I'm trying to say here is pretty much what Z and T players said to P in that "P whine thread": players will adapt. I am confident that zerg players will find new ways to "counter" this specific strategy. It was done in the GSL so it's possible.
No need to "patch it into oblivion"
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I feel like this is another annoying over reaction to a fast hatch at the natch. As a zerg player i can say it IS necessary to make a second hatch very fucking fast if you dont want to get steamrolled by the first push simply because the hatch is where we make all our units. the fact that the hatch is at the natural is often just out of convenience...ie, we would expand there eventually anyways so it makes more sense to put it there than in the base...really doesn't matter that much. most of those early fast expands never get close to saturated early on...they're for MAKING UNITS. Like offensive units.
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On November 24 2010 06:05 TonyT123 wrote:
I feel like this is another annoying over reaction to a fast hatch at the natch. As a zerg player i can say it IS necessary to make a second hatch very fucking fast if you dont want to get steamrolled by the first push simply because the hatch is where we make all our units. the fact that the hatch is at the natural is often just out of convenience...ie, we would expand there eventually anyways so it makes more sense to put it there than in the base...really doesn't matter that much. most of those early fast expands never get close to saturated early on...they're for MAKING UNITS. Like offensive units.
I played Zerg until recently as well and I can tell you that in the beginning of release it was impossible to 14 hatch and all the Zergs got a long just fine. I see things like this; the 14 hatch is a cookie and Zergs are the kids who don't want that cookie to be taken away. Sure, you produce units from you'r hatcheries but if it was such an issue making units from 1 hatch then how would builds like the 5 RR be so effective? You have to come up with something better than that man.
Also, haven't you ever heard that after an early Zerg expo you can't even support units from both hatcheries because you aren't getting enough minerals so your point is completely invalid until the time in game that you would be making a SAFE expo and actually being able to use the extra larvae. Thats why when you 14 CC you use you'r queens first energy to make a creep tumor and not inject.
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On November 23 2010 16:43 Wasteweiser wrote:
Cheese? Sure call it what you will but winning is winning and greedy playstyles should get punished.
i kinda agree with this (i think it's just a strong opening rather than being cheese). i open with 2 rax, send like 5-6 scvs when i hit 6 rines, then build a cc while im pressuring and prepare for mid game. it's kinda like how some protoss do a cheese opening as a standard, because normally the cheese will hurt the cheesed-player more than the cheeser, even if it gets stopped.
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Ok, here's a little homework for everybody who thinks 14 hatch or any similar opening is advantageous for Zerg.
Open up any high-level ZvT replay that involves a fast hatchery.
Press I and get to the income tab.
Mark down the time at which Zerg overtakes Terran for having a higher income between them.
There will be a tiny blip at the 9-10 worker mark, then zerg starts building structures and he will remain significantly behind in econ until the 8+ minute mark. I guarantee you will find nothing to the contrary.
Feel free to link any replay that proves otherwise right here.
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On November 24 2010 06:08 ckw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:05 TonyT123 wrote:
I feel like this is another annoying over reaction to a fast hatch at the natch. As a zerg player i can say it IS necessary to make a second hatch very fucking fast if you dont want to get steamrolled by the first push simply because the hatch is where we make all our units. the fact that the hatch is at the natural is often just out of convenience...ie, we would expand there eventually anyways so it makes more sense to put it there than in the base...really doesn't matter that much. most of those early fast expands never get close to saturated early on...they're for MAKING UNITS. Like offensive units. I played Zerg until recently as well and I can tell you that in the beginning of release it was impossible to 14 hatch and all the Zergs got a long just fine. I see things like this; the 14 hatch is a cookie and Zergs are the kids who don't want that cookie to be taken away. Sure, you produce units from you'r hatcheries but if it was such an issue making units from 1 hatch then how would builds like the 5 RR be so effective? You have to come up with something better than that man.
5 RR is effective? are you in bronze dude? Sorry but your opinion just took a huge fall in importance.
P.S. oh and before patch zerg WERE NOT fine, that is why we got patch in first place ( 2 in fact )
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Zergs are being greedy so they are losing to rushes.. makes sense. Artosis says it himself that hatch first is a BAD build, but im sure lots of Zergs will think they "have the right" to the fastest possible expansion
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w/e when terrans are flipping out over a FE i just build the 2nd hatch in my main instead. what am i supposed to do w/ all those resources and no larva? just sit on em? having money and no larva to make units is how they get ya.
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On November 24 2010 06:10 Jermstuddog wrote:
Ok, here's a little homework for everybody who thinks 14 hatch or any similar opening is advantageous for Zerg.
Open up any high-level ZvT replay that involves a fast hatchery.
Press I and get to the income tab.
Mark down the time at which Zerg overtakes Terran for having a higher income between them.
There will be a tiny blip at the 9-10 worker mark, then zerg starts building structures and he will remain significantly behind in econ until the 8+ minute mark. I guarantee you will find nothing to the contrary.
Feel free to link any replay that proves otherwise right here.
tested this, it is true
Keep defending your 1 base allins, Terranwhiners
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On November 24 2010 06:10 Jermstuddog wrote:
Ok, here's a little homework for everybody who thinks 14 hatch or any similar opening is advantageous for Zerg.
Open up any high-level ZvT replay that involves a fast hatchery.
Press I and get to the income tab.
Mark down the time at which Zerg overtakes Terran for having a higher income between them.
There will be a tiny blip at the 9-10 worker mark, then zerg starts building structures and he will remain significantly behind in econ until the 8+ minute mark. I guarantee you will find nothing to the contrary.
Feel free to link any replay that proves otherwise right here.
This is the same for ANY of the races that would take an expansion that fast. Show ME a replay that proves otherwise.
On November 24 2010 06:12 Coolcatqt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 06:10 Jermstuddog wrote:
Ok, here's a little homework for everybody who thinks 14 hatch or any similar opening is advantageous for Zerg.
Open up any high-level ZvT replay that involves a fast hatchery.
Press I and get to the income tab.
Mark down the time at which Zerg overtakes Terran for having a higher income between them.
There will be a tiny blip at the 9-10 worker mark, then zerg starts building structures and he will remain significantly behind in econ until the 8+ minute mark. I guarantee you will find nothing to the contrary.
Feel free to link any replay that proves otherwise right here. tested this, it is true Keep defending your 1 base allins, Terranwhiners
Last time I checked the Terrans weren't the ones whining, you were. lol, how cute.
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EPT
