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About the "football players do not have to pay the ball manufacturer (Adidas, etc) to play the game.
No they don't.
However, every team in any official league in Europe has to pay money to their national football association, and every national association has to pay money to UEFA to be able to play.
Same with national level, every nations association pays money to FIFA to be able to play official matches. I'll bet it's the same in the US with the armored handball you guys call football, the teams have to pay money to the NFL, NBA or whatever to be able to participate. If you do not pay, you can't play.
Blizzard in this analogy is not Adidas, the ball manufacturer, but UEFA, FIFA, NBA, NFL (pick your poison) - the association / company that owns the intellectual rights to the game in the region (which in this case is world wide).
It seems perfectly simple to anyone except KeSPA.....
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On November 14 2010 16:47 Pleiades wrote:
Blizzard has IP rights to Starcraft, because they created, copyrighted, and trademarked it. Blizzard produced their product.
Unless you want to argue Blizard foresaw every move Flash/Jaedong could make and put them in the game deliberately, players create new IP. Players have intellects and they create stuff. How much more simple has someone with a PhD in IP has to put it to this undergrad? (lol)
Thing is, US has juries and juries are very easy to be tricked as is evident from a WoW case where the jury was so confused they made a wrong technical interpretation because Blizz lawyers tricked them into that. Blizz lawyers will probably be able to make the jury decide on that every move was already put in the game by Blizzard and that players just activate them. But that is false.
Can't believed you actually want to argue that SC players don't deserve IP rights. Just because SC is copyrighted software and chess isn't are different issues. Players make moves in both games which are products of their intellects which contains special SC/chess playing skills which people want to watch.
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On November 14 2010 16:52 Sozeles wrote:
However, every team in any official league in Europe has to pay money to their national football association, and every national association has to pay money to UEFA to be able to play.
Players get huge huge salaries because the UEFA gets huge huge amounts of money from Champions League, etc. If some third party can just get the rights without having to pay the players/teams, how fair is that? That's what Blizzard proposes. Blizzard wants to cut out the teams/players and share the IP rights 50/50 with the broadcasters, who only contribute commentary and other minor stuff.
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On November 14 2010 16:41 Pizzapie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 16:31 xBillehx wrote:Anyone willing to translate this too? I do love to read/hear what the Korean's think since they're more connected to the situation in Korea than we are, so thanks to Pizzapie for translating. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Shoud I?
I would be ever so grateful. :D You could add it to the OP in a spoiler or something since it's kind of long anyway. It's totally up to you though, all translations are usually welcome around here.
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On November 14 2010 16:53 Gonodactylus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 16:47 Pleiades wrote:
Blizzard has IP rights to Starcraft, because they created, copyrighted, and trademarked it. Blizzard produced their product. Unless you want to argue Blizard foresaw every move Flash/Jaedong could make and put them in the game deliberately, players create new IP. Players have intellects and they create stuff. How much more simple has someone with a PhD in IP has to put it to this undergrad? (lol) Thing is, US has juries and juries are very easy to be tricked as is evident from a WoW case where the jury was so confused they made a wrong technical interpretation because Blizz lawyers tricked them into that. Blizz lawyers will probably be able to make the jury decide on that every move was already put in the game by Blizzard and that players just activate them. But that is false. Can't believed you actually want to argue that SC players don't deserve IP rights. Just because SC is copyrighted software and chess isn't are different issues. Players make moves in both games which are products of their intellects which contains special SC/chess playing skills which people want to watch.
your argument is not a legal one. starcraft and starcraft 2 (and all videogames really) are licensed to the end-user. you do not truly BUY the game. you "license" the game for personal use. this is made explicit in every single end-user agreement you will ever see for professional proprietary non open source software.
end of discussion.
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On November 14 2010 16:26 Gonodactylus wrote:
I suggest people read up to what chess player Evgeny Sveshnikov has said about IP rights. It's the closest thing to the Kespa vs Blizzard debate anyone can find. But in the chess world the chess players had no one that would support this and chess players never went on strike for their rights.
Kespa isn't any better in that regard. The progamers in the Kespa team houses don't earn anything for their own future. They don't have any rights to their own games, so they would not get any interest from any profits, just like chess players. After their progaming stint, they will sit on the street without education and all their work over the years will not have counted towards whatever unemployment insurance there is in S.Korea. I think, they are used as freelance workers or self employed or something along those lines, because otherwise it would not even be legal to have children work for however many hours they are required to.
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United States238 Posts
I've been working on translation if you don't mind, Pizzapie :o
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On November 14 2010 16:50 Antoine wrote:
If youre referring to the TLO game thats not what happened at all, please dont comment out of ignorance
Huk picked random and got lucky to get protoss. TLO picked the wrong race and immediately illegally paused. This means you can pick random and pause if you get the wrong race. If you get the correct race you can play normally without your opponent knowing your race.
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excellent read. Thanks for the translation!
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Great post. I had no idea what all this Kespa / Blizzard stuff was actually about but thats a really well written summary. Blizzard is in the right, they didnt manufacture the ball, they created the game and deserve a piece. If the piece they want is to big, then the sport will never make it. Blizzard acts responsibly and is trying to do whats in the best interest of the sport.
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On November 14 2010 16:53 Gonodactylus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 16:47 Pleiades wrote:
Blizzard has IP rights to Starcraft, because they created, copyrighted, and trademarked it. Blizzard produced their product. Unless you want to argue Blizard foresaw every move Flash/Jaedong could make and put them in the game deliberately, players create new IP. Players have intellects and they create stuff. How much more simple has someone with a PhD in IP has to put it to this undergrad? (lol) Thing is, US has juries and juries are very easy to be tricked as is evident from a WoW case where the jury was so confused they made a wrong technical interpretation because Blizz lawyers tricked them into that. Blizz lawyers will probably be able to make the jury decide on that every move was already put in the game by Blizzard and that players just activate them. But that is false. Can't believed you actually want to argue that SC players don't deserve IP rights. Just because SC is copyrighted software and chess isn't are different issues. Players make moves in both games which are products of their intellects which contains special SC/chess playing skills which people want to watch.
How is build order IP? Can you trademark it? Can you sue someone if they spread their marines like you do? And doesn't the software license agreement cover this if it is IP?
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On November 14 2010 16:59 lao wrote:
your argument is not a legal one. starcraft and starcraft 2 (and all videogames really) are licensed to the end-user. you do not truly BUY the game. you "license" the game for personal use. this is made explicit in every single end-user agreement you will ever see for professional proprietary non open source software.
end of discussion.
This doesn't even matter. You create new intellectual property. Blizzard has to claim rights over this through their EULA, which they do. If you were right they wouldn't even have to claim this in their EULA.
Also, I think licensing and EULA's are illegal under law. You buy a physical disc but you get tricked once you open the box and have to agree to something you never knew about when you made the purchase. But again, corporations win always vs normal people because the laws are rigged, so yeah it doesn't matter. End of discussion.
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On November 14 2010 16:53 Gonodactylus wrote:
Unless you want to argue Blizard foresaw every move Flash/Jaedong could make and put them in the game deliberately, players create new IP. Players have intellects and they create stuff. How much more simple has someone with a PhD in IP has to put it to this undergrad? (lol)
Thing is, US has juries and juries are very easy to be tricked as is evident from a WoW case where the jury was so confused they made a wrong technical interpretation because Blizz lawyers tricked them into that. Blizz lawyers will probably be able to make the jury decide on that every move was already put in the game by Blizzard and that players just activate them. But that is false.
Can't believed you actually want to argue that SC players don't deserve IP rights. Just because SC is copyrighted software and chess isn't are different issues. Players make moves in both games which are products of their intellects which contains special SC/chess playing skills which people want to watch.
Your arguement makes no sense whatsoever.
My best guess to what you are trying to say and argue for is that players in Starcraft have no rights to what strategies they use within the game they play in. That they don't have rights to their own replays or whatever.
Starcraft is Blizzard's IP period. They created the game engine, characters, plot, art, design, and whatever else that's in the product. Players that play Starcraft do not have IP rights to Starcraft.
I highly doubt you have a "PhD in IP" because you don't even know what intellectual property is.
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Players get huge huge salaries because the UEFA gets huge huge amounts of money from Champions League, etc. If some third party can just get the rights without having to pay the players/teams, how fair is that? That's what Blizzard proposes. Blizzard wants to cut out the teams/players and share the IP rights 50/50 with the broadcasters, who only contribute commentary and other minor stuff.
I'm not saying Blizzards terms are fair, or going into those details.
The fact that Blizzard has different policies from UEFA is irrelevant.
On a side note though:
How is organizing events, hiring commentators (both Korean and foreign), film and sound crews, servers for online broadcast (with the know-how and bandwidth requirements that requires), same for VODs, arranging the payment systems, handing the economy around the events, probably arranging catering, seating for audiences, a pro venue, security, advertising "other minor stuff"?
I'd guess that Gom probably puts at least the same man hours into their events as the players (that are qualified) put into practicing for it, and definately has more money on the line should the event be a flop.
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On November 14 2010 17:02 Fraidnot wrote:
How is build order IP? Can you trademark it? Can you sue someone if they spread their marines like you do? And doesn't the software license agreement cover this if it is IP?
Yes, SC2 EULA does cover this because this doesn't naturally belong to Blizzard. Blizzard didn't invent all BOs in SC2. They even admit players come up with new stuff. So how can third parties, Blizzard and broadcasters, make money off intellectual property that isn't theirs?
On November 14 2010 17:02 Pleiades wrote:
Starcraft is Blizzard's IP period. They created the game engine, characters, plot, art, design, and whatever else that's in the product. Players that play Starcraft do not have IP rights to Starcraft.
I highly doubt you have a "PhD in IP" because you don't even know what intellectual property is.
Yet Blizzard already admits players do things they didn't conceive off. So this is clearly new IP not created by Blizzard. And it's worth money.
I also doubt you are an undergrad.
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On November 14 2010 17:02 Gonodactylus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2010 16:59 lao wrote:
your argument is not a legal one. starcraft and starcraft 2 (and all videogames really) are licensed to the end-user. you do not truly BUY the game. you "license" the game for personal use. this is made explicit in every single end-user agreement you will ever see for professional proprietary non open source software.
end of discussion. This doesn't even matter. You create new intellectual property. Blizzard has to claim rights over this through their EULA, which they do. If you were right they wouldn't even have to claim this in their EULA. Also, I think licensing and EULA's are illegal under law. You buy a physical disc but you get tricked once you open the box and have to agree to something you never knew about when you made the purchase. But again, corporations win always vs normal people because the laws are rigged, so yeah it doesn't matter. End of discussion.
So what it's fair to Blizzard for you to just burn a million copies and sell those copies for $5 on the street?
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On November 14 2010 17:02 Gonodactylus wrote:
This doesn't even matter. You create new intellectual property. Blizzard has to claim rights over this through their EULA, which they do. If you were right they wouldn't even have to claim this in their EULA.
Also, I think licensing and EULA's are illegal under law. You buy a physical disc but you get tricked once you open the box and have to agree to something you never knew about when you made the purchase. But again, corporations win always vs normal people because the laws are rigged, so yeah it doesn't matter. End of discussion.
Yeah... only for the fools who scroll down and agree to the EULA/TOS without actually reading it. Blizzard clearly states what you can do with their product and how much restrictions you have upon it.
Of course not all EULAs are legally-bound, but they are a contract you make with the company/developer.
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On November 14 2010 14:46 LG)Sabbath wrote:isn't this actually a good argument though?
but then why are kespa charging Msl and Osl?
:O
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On November 14 2010 17:06 Fraidnot wrote:
So what it's fair to Blizzard for you to just burn a million copies and sell those copies for $5 on the street?
That's not an EULA issue. That's not why EULA's were created. The laws countries have in place already cover that. No need for Blizzard to create a special contract with their customers for this.
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On November 14 2010 14:46 LG)Sabbath wrote:isn't this actually a good argument though?
ummm no......
Soccer ball manufacturers did not invent the game of soccer and do not have IP rights on it....this is a ludicrous argument.
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EPT
