EPTI hope Kespa gets what's coming to them. Coroporate Nazi control is only going to hinder the development of e-sports as a whole.
A Korean fan explains why he hates KeSPA - Page 24
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FREEloss_ca
Canada603 Posts
I hope Kespa gets what's coming to them. Coroporate Nazi control is only going to hinder the development of e-sports as a whole. | ||
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Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
The second half is new to me, though. | ||
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Mioraka
Canada1353 Posts
On November 16 2010 00:02 Frankon wrote: Technically they arent conrtacts and arent legally bound. Clicking yes != user signature accepting the contract. Maybe when they add a requirement of a user digital signature it would be a fully legal signed contract but right now there is a slight chance of wining in court against such EULA. Um, no, they are legal contracts, and yes, they are legally bound. Case about the enforcement of EULA in Canada: Rudder v. Microsoft Corp. + Show Spoiler + This is from Wikipedia, I have the entire case but I thought that would be too hard to read for most people. Background Rudder brought a class action on behalf of MSN subscribers in Canada for, among other things, improperly charging MSN subscriber's credit cards violating the terms of the contract. Microsoft filed to dismiss the class action on the grounds of forum non conveniens. They argued that the contract between them and the subscribers contained a forum selection clause which gave exclusive jurisdiction to Washington state to resolve any disputes. Rudder argued that the particular clause was not valid as it was not adequately brought to the attention of the user. The provision was sufficiently important that it required special notice. Opinion of the Court Justice Winkler found in favour of Microsoft and held that the clause was enforceable. Winkler rejected Rudder's argument, stating that "Admittedly, the entire Agreement cannot be displayed at once on the computer screen, but this is not materially different from a multi-page written document which requires a party to turn the pages." Winkler observed that users were required to click on the "I agree" button to accept the terms, and that the impugned clause was no harder to read than any of the others. The sign-up procedure itself required users to click "I agree" twice, where the second time the user was told that they would still be bound to the terms even if they do not read them all. Winkler did not find it reasonable for Rudder to argue for the enforcement of all the other terms of the contract except for the forum clause. A finding in favour of the plaintiff, said Winkler, would not advance the goals of commercial certainty. In concluding, Winkler held that "click-wrap" agreements in general should be "afforded the sanctity that must be given to any agreement in writing." Looking at the original text on this decision, I'd say the court's position was quite firm on the legal status of EULA, because of "commercial certainty". Which is one of the important fundamental idea of today's business world. This is only a lower court decision though, but we can clearly see why most people consider EULA a legal contract. Of course, not all EULA will be enforeable, but that's up to the court's descretion, but that's the same for any other contract, the court can override any clause in a legal contract that they think is unreasonable. However, they are still legal contracts, and one clause being override doesn't nessesarily undermine the legitmacy of the entire contract. | ||
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Mioraka
Canada1353 Posts
I listened. It doesn't make sense. Play the "victim card" or "conspricy card" in an argument only makes you look stupid. | ||
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zemiron
United States481 Posts
On November 14 2010 16:52 Sozeles wrote: Same with national level, every nations association pays money to FIFA to be able to play official matches. I'll bet it's the same in the US with the armored handball you guys call football, the teams have to pay money to the NFL, NBA or whatever to be able to participate. If you do not pay, you can't play. Armored Handball is the best alternate name for American football I've ever heard. I just wanted to tell you that. Good job dude! | ||
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zemiron
United States481 Posts
I don't know if this guy is reading this thread anymore, but you can't use someone else's IP to create IP of your own that is protected by law without obtaining permission of the owner of the original IP. For example, if I want to write a series of short stories set in George R. R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" and sell them, I couldn't do it and claim that it's my IP because I'm using his IP. I also couldn't sell this story legally without obtaining Martin's permission first. This is ridiculously simple to understand. | ||
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hinnolinn
212 Posts
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-CheekyDuck-
Australia398 Posts
has anyone read that thing you have to agree to on na to play? no hosting of any tournament is allowed without blizz= instant ban internet cafe = instant ban sharing your account = instant ban playing a legue game with different software (i think like laddering with a different server) = instant ban maybe kespa and blizz are as money hungry as each other, but in the sake of sc2 freedom i hope kespa wins. | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On November 14 2010 14:26 Pizzapie wrote: Just something I've discovered while browsing the web. Since I'm Korean myself it didn't take me too long to translate this. The attachment is the screenshot of a forum post in the KeSPA website. This was written (as you can see on the top of the image) was 9th Nov 2010. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/FOgj7.jpg) So Here goes ============================================================== F***ing KeSPA, despite some views of patriotism they've shown... 1. KeSPA was born 2. Blizzard didn't care about it 3. Found out KeSPA was collecting profit (ticket fee) from offline audience for the OnGameNet Finals match. 4. Blizzard asked KeSPA to stop 5. KeSPA starts an agreement with OGN and MBC to make them pay KeSPA to broadcast SC matches. 6. Blizzard angry. Rawr >  7. GomTV, the only organisation to contact Blizzard directly to ask permission to broadcast 'internet streams' of SC matches. (OGN and MBCgame are cable TV. Original MBC channel itself is a public channel) 8. Blizzard agrees and receives '1 Dollar' to give permission to GomTV. (assuming its a gesture as to show OGN and MBCgame) 9. GomTV opens a league called 'GomTV Classic' 10. At around Season 4 of GomTV Classic, KeSPA calls them and tells them to pay up for broadcasting SC. 11. GomTV tells them we have permission from Blizzard and should step off (bitch). 12. KeSPA commands players to not enter GomTV leagues. (Players had contracts with KeSPA) 13. GomTV Classic fails miserably. 14. Blizzard is more angry. 15. Blizzard, to honor their products and protect its copyright and ownership (legal stuff), steps up to the middle of the conflict. 16. Blizzard and KeSPA goes into negotiation. 17. KeSPA goes 'e-sports is also sports', 'do soccer players pay the soccer ball manufacturers for a match', 'SC is a public property and is accessible by anyone' etc bullcrap 18. Blizzard boss Michael Morheim comes to Korea for the promotion of SC2 and also to have a meeting with the current SC progamers. 19. KeSPA contacts all Korean SC teams and threaten them to not meet up with Michael. 20. Michael Morheim was sent back without any gain. 21. Blizzard tries to negotiate but KeSPA still bullcrapping about 'please understand e-sports' 22. Blizzard and KeSPA came to a result of the negotiation. 23. Blizzard gives rights to GomTV to broadcast any Blizzard games (SC, SC2, WoW, W3). At the same time allowed SC leagues to be broadcasted under KeSPA until August. If they do not follow this conduct, Blizzard will officially show legal action. 24. KeSPA tries to appeal and goes aggressive. 25. Since OGN and MBCgame don't want to lose its broadcasting rights, they try to negotiate with GomTV 26. OGN and MBCgame understands they're still going to be paying money to contract the rights to broadcast leagues anyway, only difference is the receipient. 27. KeSPA's only weapon is the contracted players and teams. 28. After SC2 released, KeSPA did not allow SC players to touch the game. 29. Therefore most SC2 gamers are older (near 1st generation) gamers, new faces or players without tied contracts. 30. Suddenly GomTV announces GSL (SC2 open) 31. The scale of the prize money is off the charts and is the highest in the history of e-sports. 32. KeSPA pays online media/journalism organisations to start making articles dissing SC2. (lists of SC2 hating articles and funny part is the reporter/journalist is the same dude) *Blizzard, 'Pressuring' Korea with its 'SC2' release up coming. *[GAME] - Dissapointing reviews of SC2's early stages *Blizzard says 'We must Destroy SC1 for SC2 to live! *'Warning' SC2, Your computer may break down. *'SC2 fried my graphic cards' - Internet Cafe bosses and gamers uproar *Where has the fame of SC2 gone? After 4 weeks of sales... (they compared to food getting cold) *NaDa Lee, Yun-Yeol moving to SC2. Once an honored gamer, now a prize money hunter. *SC2's popularity down the sink. How Deep? (2 comments below this post) - There is an article dissing NaDa, titled 'He once was an honorable player, now he is a money hunter' The reporter has openly made an article which he can easily be sued for. I am surprised how far these journalists can go for petty money received by such a big oragnisation. Don't they have shame? - Desperate act of some poor reporter ============================================================== Words inside brackets are mostly my opinions or comments. I did not do a direct translation, since I am not a professional translator. I only tried to translate how the original poster felt. ============================================================== ============================================================== Another related post found, thanks to one of the replies of this thread. Original link: http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&no=43542# ============================================================== Thread Title: 50+ reasons why KeSPA is getting flamed. 1) League broadcasting rights conflict 1. A team league organized by MBCgame and Proleague by OGN was forced to unite and taken off of ownership, in order to abolish their private broadcasting rights. (KeSPA butted in between MBC and OGN's efforts to organize the league) 2. Originally created by OGN and OGN+MBCgame united Proleague sponsorship was forcefully taken by KeSPA. 3. For 3 years, requested the Broadcasting Stations to pay 1.7billion Won, with their broadcasting 'rights' which... Blizzard has the copyright of the product (SC). This sparked up another issue when the recent negotiations happened. 4. KeSPA gave some company called IBsports (they have a sub company called IEG). Which would cause KeSPA to wash their hands and could have pushed all the blames to them. 5. Once they boycotted one of the MBCgame Survivor series. 6. KeSPA tries to open their own league called 'KeSPA Cup' but it ended being a small scale than a local internet cafe competition. 7. Forced a cut down in scale for leagues that were 'Player based' and raised in scale for 'Team based' to enlarge their profits through sponsorship. (Sponsoring a team would be more benefitial since they risk less if a team has many good players) 8. League was broadcasted 5 days a week, causing its value per match less anticipated and its excitement to drop. 2) Rules and Policy issues 9. DQ for typing 'PP' instead of 'PPP'. They changed this rule after its first incident. 10. Typed 'a' and got DQ. Later this made the fans re-read their rules and found a backdoor where it quoted 'KeSPA referees "COULD" give the player a DQ' which sparked 'That means they can do whatever they feel like in those situations'. 11. Only able to type GG or gg. If typed WW (which is ㅈㅈ in Korean chat) or any variaties were to be DQed. 12. Accidentally pressing ESC while countdown happening (5,4,3,2,1 for SC) made them leave the game which lead to a DQ. 13. The gameplay which when the Worker-Squeeze-thru-minerals-and-buildings is CLEARLY a bug, was allowed because of this reason. "That is not specified in our rules". Since then, Pro gamers used this as method as a 'strategy' and even maps which require these gameplay appeared. (Funny how SlayerS_BoxeR's allied mine was banned but this.) 14. When the first NATE MSL finals had a problem of a 'Blackout', KeSPA lied about 'we have a replay' even though they did not and made their own decision 15. KeSPA had applied 'bonus points' for players rankings, which were different depending on if they were from OGN or MBC, making another conflict issue between the two. 16. Website database error or so called 'glitch' had made NaDa's (Lee, Yun-Yeol) records to show different to its facts. 17. Because KeSPA did not have a stable record of the players, they had to use OGN and MBCgame's records and made it look like theirs. There even was a broker who were selling player data. (Win Loss ratio and private practice replays) 18. KeSPA did not have a guideline for their sponsors agreements (payments) and requested 2billion won. Sponsors started to back away. 19. If players were drafted and if they declined KeSPA's decision, they had a rule to 'Not allowing in any pro teams for 3 years' so they had to go to a team even if they didn't want to. 20. There was a FA (Free Agent) rule applied in 2009 and whatever the team calls the highest bid for a player, the player wassent to that team. Because not all teams had the similar financial ability, since there were no 'against' rules, the richest team could always bid the highest and get all the best players they wanted. Therefore this FA rule failed. 21. Then they changed the rules into 'Choose your opponent'. This made the tournament less interesting because the viewers could now 'calculate' and predict matches even before the results of any matches came through. Fans started saying 'This could lead to a rigged/fixed matches... which eventually happened... So they changed it to 'Blind Entry' rule where they picked opponents but not publicizing it. 22. Proleague 08-09 post season was participated in '2' days due to financial reasons (whered all the sponsor money go?) and resulted in the lowest audience in history of Proleague. 3) Attitude towards other games. 23. Although KeSPA was made because of Starcraft, their organisation was meant to be for 'ALL' progamers, despite what games they were. Even though Korea had the good players for many other games (W3, Counter-Strike etc) they sought that games other than SC wouldn't make profit, therefore near-ignored support for other games. 24. They completely ignored the league support for Kart-Rider (Game by NCsoft, Famous racing game amongst Asian gamers.) All the contracted players were left to take care of themselves (contracted for nothing pretty much) 25. They hand picked their own players for 'KeSPA league but was never ongoing and the support was hardly seen. 26. Even major game categories were narrowed down to Korean specific games (Sudden Attack, Kart-Rider, Special Force etc) They say they insisted those games as an official e-sports category but never had the department to support them in the first place. 27. Especially for 'Special Force', a game which never had its popularity beyond Korea (obviously not even close to Starcraft), they started devoting its prize money to this game and resulted in the 'Proleague 2 days finals tournament'. (Read 22) 28. Already applying the 5 days per week matches for SC, for an association which should be promoting and supporting 'Games' in general as a sport, mainly focused on SC only and damaged the balance of e-sports, making it 'Starcraft-Sports'. It is suspected how they are named Esports Player Association if they are not doing what they are named after. 4) Fixed Matches issue 29. When the issue sparked, they were as if seeking for justice but they mostly tried to stay out of it (trying to avoid any legal issues) 30. When Progamer Mr. Park, announced his retirement from gaming, KeSPA tried to ignore him and avoided any involvement. 31. When Progamer Mr. Won announced his retirement, They did not even notify this officially and even tried to hide it to be published. 32. They never officially said 'Banned' within their system and they are still in the 'Retired' Status therefore fans were saying 'That is ironic since if they wanted to come back to the Progamer scene, by law they don't have any restrictions to do so' 33. They did not come up with any resolutions or plans to prevent this 'fixed matches' happening in the future. 5) Blizzard and Gretech issue. 34. KeSPA boycotted players entering GomTV classic (Season 4) They are trying to conceal the fact that they've done them on purpose. 35. Ordered the current progamers to enter the Beta phase of SC2 36. Tried to play a game (ironically) involving the media and destroyed the NDA 37. Even though Blizzard holds the copyright for SC, KeSPA says SC is a public property and its accessible by everyone, and saying they've promoted the game. Clearly 'carrying the war into the enemy´s camp'. 38. Players like NaDa and SlayerS_BoxeR were treated as 'traitors' for leaving SC contracts 39. In their public hearing, when they were trying to appeal, they involved progamer names such as Jaedong who is innocent. Bringing in un-notified 3rd party into their conflict. 40. While this public hearing was taken place, they tried to make all other games involving progaming to be public property, just like what they did to SC. 41. Progaming teams and Progamers received threats from KeSPA if they contact anyone from Blizzard or affiliate with them in any possibility, they will give them a hard time. 42. In Germany, when NaDa was invited for a show match, someone re-streamed this though a Korean Live-Streaming website (called AFRIKA), KeSPA called the managers and made him GG in the middle of a game and end the game immediately. 43. As soon as NaDa moved to the SC2 scene, KeSPA had 'Deleted' NaDa's database. Later they re-uploaded it due to the fan's anger and they replied back as a 'Glitch' in the system. 44. As per Blizzard, the negotiation went as KeSPA's attitude was ignoring the fact that Blizzard had the copyrights even though they've CREATED the game. 45. OGN was going to broadcast the SC2 Open as a joint broadcast but was soon denied which lead to suspision that a certain organisation ordered them to cancel it. 46. The Negotiations have not came to a decision yet they've started the 10-11 Proleague, technically illegal. 47. Illegally given approval for MBCgame's Bigfile MSL, Kyung-Nam STX cup and PDPOP MSL. 48. KeSPA said they will pay 300million Won per year when they've requested 1.7billion won per 3 years to the broadcasters, (Read point 3). This is obviously out of logic and an unfair business. (I'd just say Greedy) 49. While negotiating they are continuously spitting out new suggestions and delaying its completion 50. 'SC2 to be handles by KeSPA' was the main topic of KeSPA's opinions in the negotiation period. 51. Complete ignorance towards the viewers and fans and only focusing on their own profit. Typical bully style. OP of this post wanted to stay quiet but as the situation had gotten this far, he was trying to emphasize the wrong doings of KeSPA's thoughts of 'Even though we made many mistakes, there HAS TO BE an association'. OP Clearly hates this idea and also he had made replies for Gretech's selfish doing as well. But it had came down to his decision that KeSPA is the root of all evil in this case and is positive that this is the case. An organisation trying to earn profits without communicating with its fans or community is always the wrong way to go and should not even be negotiated. Basically saying 'They are not worth it'. OP Also wishes to see great matches between players and thus providing the entertainment purely for the fans and supporters. Happy Ending is always good. ====================================================================== Please do not hesitate to PM me if u have questions on anything posted here. -Pizzapie EDIT: I reckon the title should have been "KeSPA hating Korean summarizes situation" or something similar lol. I'm posting as if all Koreans hate KeSPA. EDIT2: I'll actually list the article titles as shown in the bottom section of the screenshot. They're some online news website article, typically done by the same jouranlist over and over hating SC2. EDIT3: Added translation of http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&no=43542# as someone replied and wanted translations. I dunno why they're so up in arms about KeSPA "Paying" journalists to write negative things, especially when there is zero evidence of that matter. What's amusing is that there is actual evidence that Blizzard has been paying off Korean journalists to not write anything remotely negative about SC2, but hey, "no one cares about that" right? pgr21 is pretty much anti kespa trash, they're so anti kespa down there that they will paint them as the devil however they can. meanwhile the "list" has been originating for a while and it's kind of a very skewed way of looking at everything  EDIT: Basically, it's really easy to look at why you dislike something if you're actively looking for why you dislike something. No need to take anything that takes such an extreme interpretation so seriously :| | ||
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zemiron
United States481 Posts
On November 16 2010 09:50 hinnolinn wrote: Zemiron, I feel that's a bad analogy. It's much more like writing a book in Windows Word. Which is Microsoft's IP. You are using their IP to create your own. That's a terrible analogy. It is impossible to play Starcraft without using Blizzard's IP. Just as it's impossible to write in Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" world without using Martin's IP. There are plenty of ways to write a book that don't use Word. I think my analogy holds. | ||
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-CheekyDuck-
Australia398 Posts
On November 16 2010 10:35 zemiron wrote: That's a terrible analogy. It is impossible to play Starcraft without using Blizzard's IP. Just as it's impossible to write in Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" world without using Martin's IP. There are plenty of ways to write a book that don't use Word. I think my analogy holds. well actually, its a fallacy, more specifically a false analogy. The situations are altogether different, and you can’t make an analogy between them. You should qualify what ties the ip of a book to be similar to the ip of a game, when reading your post it appears you have flaws in your argument that appear subjective if not irrelevant. edit:book* | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On November 16 2010 10:19 Milkis wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 14 2010 14:26 Pizzapie wrote: Just something I've discovered while browsing the web. Since I'm Korean myself it didn't take me too long to translate this. The attachment is the screenshot of a forum post in the KeSPA website. This was written (as you can see on the top of the image) was 9th Nov 2010. So Here goes ============================================================== F***ing KeSPA, despite some views of patriotism they've shown... 1. KeSPA was born 2. Blizzard didn't care about it 3. Found out KeSPA was collecting profit (ticket fee) from offline audience for the OnGameNet Finals match. 4. Blizzard asked KeSPA to stop 5. KeSPA starts an agreement with OGN and MBC to make them pay KeSPA to broadcast SC matches. 6. Blizzard angry. Rawr > 7. GomTV, the only organisation to contact Blizzard directly to ask permission to broadcast 'internet streams' of SC matches. (OGN and MBCgame are cable TV. Original MBC channel itself is a public channel) 8. Blizzard agrees and receives '1 Dollar' to give permission to GomTV. (assuming its a gesture as to show OGN and MBCgame) 9. GomTV opens a league called 'GomTV Classic' 10. At around Season 4 of GomTV Classic, KeSPA calls them and tells them to pay up for broadcasting SC. 11. GomTV tells them we have permission from Blizzard and should step off (bitch). 12. KeSPA commands players to not enter GomTV leagues. (Players had contracts with KeSPA) 13. GomTV Classic fails miserably. 14. Blizzard is more angry. 15. Blizzard, to honor their products and protect its copyright and ownership (legal stuff), steps up to the middle of the conflict. 16. Blizzard and KeSPA goes into negotiation. 17. KeSPA goes 'e-sports is also sports', 'do soccer players pay the soccer ball manufacturers for a match', 'SC is a public property and is accessible by anyone' etc bullcrap 18. Blizzard boss Michael Morheim comes to Korea for the promotion of SC2 and also to have a meeting with the current SC progamers. 19. KeSPA contacts all Korean SC teams and threaten them to not meet up with Michael. 20. Michael Morheim was sent back without any gain. 21. Blizzard tries to negotiate but KeSPA still bullcrapping about 'please understand e-sports' 22. Blizzard and KeSPA came to a result of the negotiation. 23. Blizzard gives rights to GomTV to broadcast any Blizzard games (SC, SC2, WoW, W3). At the same time allowed SC leagues to be broadcasted under KeSPA until August. If they do not follow this conduct, Blizzard will officially show legal action. 24. KeSPA tries to appeal and goes aggressive. 25. Since OGN and MBCgame don't want to lose its broadcasting rights, they try to negotiate with GomTV 26. OGN and MBCgame understands they're still going to be paying money to contract the rights to broadcast leagues anyway, only difference is the receipient. 27. KeSPA's only weapon is the contracted players and teams. 28. After SC2 released, KeSPA did not allow SC players to touch the game. 29. Therefore most SC2 gamers are older (near 1st generation) gamers, new faces or players without tied contracts. 30. Suddenly GomTV announces GSL (SC2 open) 31. The scale of the prize money is off the charts and is the highest in the history of e-sports. 32. KeSPA pays online media/journalism organisations to start making articles dissing SC2. (lists of SC2 hating articles and funny part is the reporter/journalist is the same dude) *Blizzard, 'Pressuring' Korea with its 'SC2' release up coming. *[GAME] - Dissapointing reviews of SC2's early stages *Blizzard says 'We must Destroy SC1 for SC2 to live! *'Warning' SC2, Your computer may break down. *'SC2 fried my graphic cards' - Internet Cafe bosses and gamers uproar *Where has the fame of SC2 gone? After 4 weeks of sales... (they compared to food getting cold) *NaDa Lee, Yun-Yeol moving to SC2. Once an honored gamer, now a prize money hunter. *SC2's popularity down the sink. How Deep? (2 comments below this post) - There is an article dissing NaDa, titled 'He once was an honorable player, now he is a money hunter' The reporter has openly made an article which he can easily be sued for. I am surprised how far these journalists can go for petty money received by such a big oragnisation. Don't they have shame? - Desperate act of some poor reporter ============================================================== Words inside brackets are mostly my opinions or comments. I did not do a direct translation, since I am not a professional translator. I only tried to translate how the original poster felt. ============================================================== ============================================================== Another related post found, thanks to one of the replies of this thread. Original link: http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&no=43542# ============================================================== Thread Title: 50+ reasons why KeSPA is getting flamed. 1) League broadcasting rights conflict 1. A team league organized by MBCgame and Proleague by OGN was forced to unite and taken off of ownership, in order to abolish their private broadcasting rights. (KeSPA butted in between MBC and OGN's efforts to organize the league) 2. Originally created by OGN and OGN+MBCgame united Proleague sponsorship was forcefully taken by KeSPA. 3. For 3 years, requested the Broadcasting Stations to pay 1.7billion Won, with their broadcasting 'rights' which... Blizzard has the copyright of the product (SC). This sparked up another issue when the recent negotiations happened. 4. KeSPA gave some company called IBsports (they have a sub company called IEG). Which would cause KeSPA to wash their hands and could have pushed all the blames to them. 5. Once they boycotted one of the MBCgame Survivor series. 6. KeSPA tries to open their own league called 'KeSPA Cup' but it ended being a small scale than a local internet cafe competition. 7. Forced a cut down in scale for leagues that were 'Player based' and raised in scale for 'Team based' to enlarge their profits through sponsorship. (Sponsoring a team would be more benefitial since they risk less if a team has many good players) 8. League was broadcasted 5 days a week, causing its value per match less anticipated and its excitement to drop. 2) Rules and Policy issues 9. DQ for typing 'PP' instead of 'PPP'. They changed this rule after its first incident. 10. Typed 'a' and got DQ. Later this made the fans re-read their rules and found a backdoor where it quoted 'KeSPA referees "COULD" give the player a DQ' which sparked 'That means they can do whatever they feel like in those situations'. 11. Only able to type GG or gg. If typed WW (which is ㅈㅈ in Korean chat) or any variaties were to be DQed. 12. Accidentally pressing ESC while countdown happening (5,4,3,2,1 for SC) made them leave the game which lead to a DQ. 13. The gameplay which when the Worker-Squeeze-thru-minerals-and-buildings is CLEARLY a bug, was allowed because of this reason. "That is not specified in our rules". Since then, Pro gamers used this as method as a 'strategy' and even maps which require these gameplay appeared. (Funny how SlayerS_BoxeR's allied mine was banned but this.) 14. When the first NATE MSL finals had a problem of a 'Blackout', KeSPA lied about 'we have a replay' even though they did not and made their own decision 15. KeSPA had applied 'bonus points' for players rankings, which were different depending on if they were from OGN or MBC, making another conflict issue between the two. 16. Website database error or so called 'glitch' had made NaDa's (Lee, Yun-Yeol) records to show different to its facts. 17. Because KeSPA did not have a stable record of the players, they had to use OGN and MBCgame's records and made it look like theirs. There even was a broker who were selling player data. (Win Loss ratio and private practice replays) 18. KeSPA did not have a guideline for their sponsors agreements (payments) and requested 2billion won. Sponsors started to back away. 19. If players were drafted and if they declined KeSPA's decision, they had a rule to 'Not allowing in any pro teams for 3 years' so they had to go to a team even if they didn't want to. 20. There was a FA (Free Agent) rule applied in 2009 and whatever the team calls the highest bid for a player, the player wassent to that team. Because not all teams had the similar financial ability, since there were no 'against' rules, the richest team could always bid the highest and get all the best players they wanted. Therefore this FA rule failed. 21. Then they changed the rules into 'Choose your opponent'. This made the tournament less interesting because the viewers could now 'calculate' and predict matches even before the results of any matches came through. Fans started saying 'This could lead to a rigged/fixed matches... which eventually happened... So they changed it to 'Blind Entry' rule where they picked opponents but not publicizing it. 22. Proleague 08-09 post season was participated in '2' days due to financial reasons (whered all the sponsor money go?) and resulted in the lowest audience in history of Proleague. 3) Attitude towards other games. 23. Although KeSPA was made because of Starcraft, their organisation was meant to be for 'ALL' progamers, despite what games they were. Even though Korea had the good players for many other games (W3, Counter-Strike etc) they sought that games other than SC wouldn't make profit, therefore near-ignored support for other games. 24. They completely ignored the league support for Kart-Rider (Game by NCsoft, Famous racing game amongst Asian gamers.) All the contracted players were left to take care of themselves (contracted for nothing pretty much) 25. They hand picked their own players for 'KeSPA league but was never ongoing and the support was hardly seen. 26. Even major game categories were narrowed down to Korean specific games (Sudden Attack, Kart-Rider, Special Force etc) They say they insisted those games as an official e-sports category but never had the department to support them in the first place. 27. Especially for 'Special Force', a game which never had its popularity beyond Korea (obviously not even close to Starcraft), they started devoting its prize money to this game and resulted in the 'Proleague 2 days finals tournament'. (Read 22) 28. Already applying the 5 days per week matches for SC, for an association which should be promoting and supporting 'Games' in general as a sport, mainly focused on SC only and damaged the balance of e-sports, making it 'Starcraft-Sports'. It is suspected how they are named Esports Player Association if they are not doing what they are named after. 4) Fixed Matches issue 29. When the issue sparked, they were as if seeking for justice but they mostly tried to stay out of it (trying to avoid any legal issues) 30. When Progamer Mr. Park, announced his retirement from gaming, KeSPA tried to ignore him and avoided any involvement. 31. When Progamer Mr. Won announced his retirement, They did not even notify this officially and even tried to hide it to be published. 32. They never officially said 'Banned' within their system and they are still in the 'Retired' Status therefore fans were saying 'That is ironic since if they wanted to come back to the Progamer scene, by law they don't have any restrictions to do so' 33. They did not come up with any resolutions or plans to prevent this 'fixed matches' happening in the future. 5) Blizzard and Gretech issue. 34. KeSPA boycotted players entering GomTV classic (Season 4) They are trying to conceal the fact that they've done them on purpose. 35. Ordered the current progamers to enter the Beta phase of SC2 36. Tried to play a game (ironically) involving the media and destroyed the NDA 37. Even though Blizzard holds the copyright for SC, KeSPA says SC is a public property and its accessible by everyone, and saying they've promoted the game. Clearly 'carrying the war into the enemy´s camp'. 38. Players like NaDa and SlayerS_BoxeR were treated as 'traitors' for leaving SC contracts 39. In their public hearing, when they were trying to appeal, they involved progamer names such as Jaedong who is innocent. Bringing in un-notified 3rd party into their conflict. 40. While this public hearing was taken place, they tried to make all other games involving progaming to be public property, just like what they did to SC. 41. Progaming teams and Progamers received threats from KeSPA if they contact anyone from Blizzard or affiliate with them in any possibility, they will give them a hard time. 42. In Germany, when NaDa was invited for a show match, someone re-streamed this though a Korean Live-Streaming website (called AFRIKA), KeSPA called the managers and made him GG in the middle of a game and end the game immediately. 43. As soon as NaDa moved to the SC2 scene, KeSPA had 'Deleted' NaDa's database. Later they re-uploaded it due to the fan's anger and they replied back as a 'Glitch' in the system. 44. As per Blizzard, the negotiation went as KeSPA's attitude was ignoring the fact that Blizzard had the copyrights even though they've CREATED the game. 45. OGN was going to broadcast the SC2 Open as a joint broadcast but was soon denied which lead to suspision that a certain organisation ordered them to cancel it. 46. The Negotiations have not came to a decision yet they've started the 10-11 Proleague, technically illegal. 47. Illegally given approval for MBCgame's Bigfile MSL, Kyung-Nam STX cup and PDPOP MSL. 48. KeSPA said they will pay 300million Won per year when they've requested 1.7billion won per 3 years to the broadcasters, (Read point 3). This is obviously out of logic and an unfair business. (I'd just say Greedy) 49. While negotiating they are continuously spitting out new suggestions and delaying its completion 50. 'SC2 to be handles by KeSPA' was the main topic of KeSPA's opinions in the negotiation period. 51. Complete ignorance towards the viewers and fans and only focusing on their own profit. Typical bully style. OP of this post wanted to stay quiet but as the situation had gotten this far, he was trying to emphasize the wrong doings of KeSPA's thoughts of 'Even though we made many mistakes, there HAS TO BE an association'. OP Clearly hates this idea and also he had made replies for Gretech's selfish doing as well. But it had came down to his decision that KeSPA is the root of all evil in this case and is positive that this is the case. An organisation trying to earn profits without communicating with its fans or community is always the wrong way to go and should not even be negotiated. Basically saying 'They are not worth it'. OP Also wishes to see great matches between players and thus providing the entertainment purely for the fans and supporters. Happy Ending is always good. ====================================================================== Please do not hesitate to PM me if u have questions on anything posted here. -Pizzapie EDIT: I reckon the title should have been "KeSPA hating Korean summarizes situation" or something similar lol. I'm posting as if all Koreans hate KeSPA. EDIT2: I'll actually list the article titles as shown in the bottom section of the screenshot. They're some online news website article, typically done by the same jouranlist over and over hating SC2. EDIT3: Added translation of http://www.pgr21.com/zboard4/zboard.php?id=free2&no=43542# as someone replied and wanted translations. I dunno why they're so up in arms about KeSPA "Paying" journalists to write negative things, especially when there is zero evidence of that matter. What's amusing is that there is actual evidence that Blizzard has been paying off Korean journalists to not write anything remotely negative about SC2, but hey, "no one cares about that" right? pgr21 is pretty much anti kespa trash, they're so anti kespa down there that they will paint them as the devil however they can. meanwhile the "list" has been originating for a while and it's kind of a very skewed way of looking at everything EDIT: Basically, it's really easy to look at why you dislike something if you're actively looking for why you dislike something. No need to take anything that takes such an extreme interpretation so seriously :| Yeah as I was saying a few pages ago, these are just one side's interpretation of the events that have happened. Yet this thread is filled with people taking the entire list as 100% fact and becoming as fanatic as the "BW fanatics" they keep mentioning. Thank you for stepping into this thread and clearing up everything. You're like our link to what's going on in Korea/the Korean SC Community. As for said evidence about Blizzard paying off journalists, has that been posted before? I must have missed it. | ||
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aztrorisk
United States896 Posts
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zemiron
United States481 Posts
On November 16 2010 10:53 CheekyDuck wrote: well actually, its a fallacy, more specifically a false analogy. The situations are altogether different, and you can’t make an analogy between them. You should qualify what ties the ip of a book to be similar to the ip of a game, when reading your post it appears you have flaws in your argument that appear subjective if not irrelevant. edit:book* I would argue that a false analogy is still a terrible analogy, but at this point, we're just splitting hairs. My analogy might not be perfect (and no analogy ever is, that's why Arguments from Analogies can never be valid only strong), but I'm not sure exactly how it appears subjective. The person I responded to made the argument that players created IP by playing the game. I was making the argument by using my analogy that when you use IP to create your own IP (if it can actually be considered IP), it won't be protected by law. You can't write fanfiction and make money off of it without the authors permission. That's my point. I'd be interested why you think the way you do though. | ||
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
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dew
United States59 Posts
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latan
740 Posts
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On November 16 2010 08:04 Mioraka wrote: I listened. It doesn't make sense. Play the "victim card" or "conspricy card" in an argument only makes you look stupid. And the person originally quoted has the wrong definition of IP anyway...it's all big corporations because they're the ones that file for it. If you want you can file for rights of an IP, but you'd have to prove you came up with it and it's original/has value/innovative. there's just no point because all it does is give you rights over a specific title or idea; it has nothing to do with personal rights. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On November 16 2010 11:06 aztrorisk wrote: Thank you so much for this article. You informed me in the current situation in a matter of minutes. Before, I knew that Blizzard was trying to protect their rights but I thought it was just Blizzard being greedy. Now I know. TY for informing me. On November 16 2010 11:30 ZlaSHeR wrote: Really sobering read after all the blizzard hate for being greedy, when in fact when looking back into the history of it, seems like Kespa was the one being greedy. Can we get Milki's post linked on the OP? I mean we all love a bit of gossip/drama but... Otherwise it's just going to cause more misinformed posters joining the Blizzard vs KeSPA debate... | ||
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