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Not that I doubt your interpretation Milkis (as always many thanks for your translations as well!) but many of the things listed in the OP actually happened in the past few years, and I quite remember how the community was when they first heard of it. I don't think a year or two later really changes what actually happened back then, so a lot of it is indeed true. Reading around Teamliquid before the SC2 forums existed and the majority of people hated KeSPA for such things, yet some people somehow forgot all that and attempt to demonize Blizzard based off of a lot of speculation and statements from the entity they used to hate.
It seems like a lot of foreigners have a short term memory, (hell just look at the recent American elections) but I definitely didn't forget. I dislike KeSPA for the things they've done in the past few years, and I don't trust that they've changed their ways at all. One of the most disheartening things out of them recently were the articles that trashed NaDa's name, and you can't deny that happened. There are very valid reasons to dislike them.
I'm actually quite interested in what made people all of a sudden like them again. What have they done to redeem themselves? Or are people just riding on the fact that they think the only way BW can survive (true or not) is through KeSPA?
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On November 16 2010 11:27 zemiron wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 10:53 CheekyDuck wrote:On November 16 2010 10:35 zemiron wrote:On November 16 2010 09:50 hinnolinn wrote:
Zemiron, I feel that's a bad analogy. It's much more like writing a book in Windows Word. Which is Microsoft's IP. You are using their IP to create your own. That's a terrible analogy. It is impossible to play Starcraft without using Blizzard's IP. Just as it's impossible to write in Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" world without using Martin's IP. There are plenty of ways to write a book that don't use Word. I think my analogy holds. well actually, its a fallacy, more specifically a false analogy. The situations are altogether different, and you can’t make an analogy between them. You should qualify what ties the ip of a book to be similar to the ip of a game, when reading your post it appears you have flaws in your argument that appear subjective if not irrelevant. edit:book* I would argue that a false analogy is still a terrible analogy, but at this point, we're just splitting hairs. My analogy might not be perfect (and no analogy ever is, that's why Arguments from Analogies can never be valid only strong), but I'm not sure exactly how it appears subjective. The person I responded to made the argument that players created IP by playing the game. I was making the argument by using my analogy that when you use IP to create your own IP (if it can actually be considered IP), it won't be protected by law. You can't write fanfiction and make money off of it without the authors permission. That's my point. I'd be interested why you think the way you do though.
book ip and the ip your talking about are different.
subjective is the view of what ip means and what you can and cannot do.
I understand where you were going, but with what you were saying i could say:
Fan fiction is a derivative work under United States copyright law, but what law are you refering to?
fanfiction porn in the US is not allowed and usually taken to court, but unsure of the outcome, but i think this has moe to do with moral rights than ip.
In art "campbell soup- andy warhol"?
see how it can easily be derailed?
"You can't write fanfiction and make money off of it without the authors permission."
Is off topic from:
"players created IP by playing the game"
......
Micheal Jordan?
David Beckham?
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i never really commented on this whole gretech kespa issue because of my lack of knowledge. but after reading all that, i'm now sided with blizzard after reading how they made gomtv pay to broadcast starcraft when they got permission from the creators in the first place. and its not like football where there really isn't an owner. starcraft is clearly blizz's property and it now it seems to me that kespa is the one on the un-negotiable side. blizz clearly seems as if they were in a good stature to come to a bargain but kespa wasn't.
gogo blizz.
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United States238 Posts
On November 16 2010 11:55 xBillehx wrote:
... Or are people just riding on the fact that they think the only way BW can survive (true or not) is through KeSPA?
Pretty much. KeSPA threatened to disband all teams and stop proleague before, should Blizzard gets their way. Secondly, Blizzard is not yet "proven" if they can actually manage (or have Gretech manage) progame teams and players.
So yes, BW fans believe only way BW can survive is to let KeSPA live (and let them have their way) and not be affected by anything Blizzard might want.
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I just don't see how Kespa can tell Blizzard that StarCraft is public property and then turn around and force other people to pay money to watch their events etc. Wtf is wrong with their logic? So hypocritical...
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5003 Posts
On November 16 2010 11:55 xBillehx wrote:
Not that I doubt your interpretation Milkis (as always many thanks for your translations as well!) but many of the things listed in the OP actually happened in the past few years, and I quite remember how the community was when they first heard of it. I don't think a year or two later really changes what actually happened back then, so a lot of it is indeed true. Reading around Teamliquid before the SC2 forums existed and the majority of people hated KeSPA for such things, yet some people somehow forgot all that and attempt to demonize Blizzard based off of a lot of speculation and statements from the entity they used to hate.
It seems like a lot of foreigners have a short term memory, (hell just look at the recent American elections) but I definitely didn't forget. I dislike KeSPA for the things they've done in the past few years, and I don't trust that they've changed their ways at all. One of the most disheartening things out of them recently were the articles that trashed NaDa's name, and you can't deny that happened. There are very valid reasons to dislike them.
I'm actually quite interested in what made people all of a sudden like them again. What have they done to redeem themselves? Or are people just riding on the fact that they think the only way BW can survive (true or not) is through KeSPA?
There is no doubt some of the stuff actually happened.
But when you only list one side's mistakes in the process, you're of course going to interpret everything as if it was one side's fault.
Of course, I wasn't actually around for many of these "events", but I dunno, the interpretation of what supposedly happened "behind the scenes" feel very exaggerated and outlandish to the point of disbelief.
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england made football (soccer), usa made basketball...
imagine what would happen if everyone should pay them fees because of that..
e-sports is like sports and blizzard should be happy to be promoted through it and that is it..
every country has its own organization/association in every sport.. imagine expansion of e-sport and imagine if every country will make their own kespa... imagine how much money would that be for blizzard..
blizzard is wrong.. does they pay fees because they use tools for making games? no! why should e-sport association do same thing?
if kespa will lose than e-sport has no chance in near future
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I'd say they are more like Korean e-Starcraft Association, not Korean e-SPorts Association.
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On December 07 2010 22:15 purgerinho wrote:
england made football (soccer), usa made basketball...
imagine what would happen if everyone should pay them fees because of that..
e-sports is like sports and blizzard should be happy to be promoted through it and that is it..
every country has its own organization/association in every sport.. imagine expansion of e-sport and imagine if every country will make their own kespa... imagine how much money would that be for blizzard..
blizzard is wrong.. does they pay fees because they use tools for making games? no! why should e-sport association do same thing?
if kespa will lose than e-sport has no chance in near future
you are so wrong on so many levels
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@blobskillz: great argument!
if we want to call e-sport exactly like that "e" and "sport" than there is no blizzard, konami etc. there are tool developers (whole computer or console), there are game developers, there are e-sport associations, there are gamers and there are events.
it's not right to control everything...
but i would really be happy if tools developers would say to blizzard: look, you must give us a fee because you are using our product to make your own.
blizzard isn't creator of e-sport in korea. and that is it.
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although i agree with the posts they are from a bias point of view. Makes Kespa look terrible. they really screwed themselves over tho. How much would everyone have gained from a smooth integration as opposed to this bw vs sc2 business. and its becomming more and more clear that it was kespa that stopped it from happening. i thought i hated blizzard for a while when these whole shenanigans started but rele kespa was the ones holding on too tight and suffocating the pro scene by failing to be adaptive and being greedy with something that is not theirs.
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I support Kespa, proleagues have basically done free advertising for Blizzard.
Battle.net 2.0 even makes me facepalm.
From what I've seen of the Blizzard made maps / map pools in GSL3 I agree with Daniel Lee that Blizzard doesn't know SHIT about e-sports.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On December 07 2010 22:15 purgerinho wrote:
england made football (soccer), usa made basketball...
imagine what would happen if everyone should pay them fees because of that..
e-sports is like sports and blizzard should be happy to be promoted through it and that is it..
every country has its own organization/association in every sport.. imagine expansion of e-sport and imagine if every country will make their own kespa... imagine how much money would that be for blizzard..
blizzard is wrong.. does they pay fees because they use tools for making games? no! why should e-sport association do same thing?
if kespa will lose than e-sport has no chance in near future
The fundamental problem is that there has been no precedent like this so who is "right" is a very vague question.
You can't make comparisons to football because there isn't a legal entity that could claim the IP rights to football. Football is in the public domain. Blizzard, on the other hand, does clearly own Starcraft and therefore has every right to license it to you in whatever way they see fit.
If you buy Photoshop or 3D Studio Max they don't claim rights over any works that you produce with their tools because that's how it has historically been, but I guess they technically could and you couldn't do much except stop using their software. Which everyone would, because there's plenty of competing software without such restrictions.
But Blizzard being effectively a monopolist can include a clause in their license agreement that says that you must get their consent before broadcasting any tournaments, and there is not much you can do. You either buy the game and therefore agree to their license or don't buy the game and don't do any tournaments. You could also try to prove in court that their license agreement is invalid according to the laws of the country, which is what KeSPA hopes to achieve as far as I understand.
And of course Blizzard doesn't have to be "happy" with what you think they should be. They provide their product, and as long as there is sufficient demand they can do whatever they feel like doing with it. The only thing that could realistically punish them for being unethical is people switching to other games instead. Only there are no other games to switch to.
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I now understand why we do not have LAN capabilities. Blizzard now has complete control over their product and could shut it down at any moment, not saying they would but it's nice to have that power when fighting KeSPA. KeSPA seems like a money hungry organization who does not care about players, only money. Not saying GOM is better, aka why idra could not attend dreamhack, but still forcing Nada to gg in a show match AND not letting players touch sc2 even in thier own time sounds like communism. KeSPA = North Korea anyone?
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On December 08 2010 03:08 brutality wrote:
I now understand why we do not have LAN capabilities. Blizzard now has complete control over their product and could shut it down at any moment, not saying they would but it's nice to have that power when fighting KeSPA. KeSPA seems like a money hungry organization who does not care about players, only money. Not saying GOM is better, aka why idra could not attend dreamhack, but still forcing Nada to gg in a show match AND not letting players touch sc2 even in thier own time sounds like communism. KeSPA = North Korea anyone?
Wait, what happened? GOM stopped Idra from going to Dreamhack?
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On December 08 2010 03:17 Smackzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2010 03:08 brutality wrote:
I now understand why we do not have LAN capabilities. Blizzard now has complete control over their product and could shut it down at any moment, not saying they would but it's nice to have that power when fighting KeSPA. KeSPA seems like a money hungry organization who does not care about players, only money. Not saying GOM is better, aka why idra could not attend dreamhack, but still forcing Nada to gg in a show match AND not letting players touch sc2 even in thier own time sounds like communism. KeSPA = North Korea anyone? Wait, what happened? GOM stopped Idra from going to Dreamhack?
Not directly. It was a scheduling issue with GSL. They shafted him by not moving his match date even though he requested it in advance. He talked about it in a state of the game.
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On December 08 2010 03:08 brutality wrote:
I now understand why we do not have LAN capabilities. Blizzard now has complete control over their product and could shut it down at any moment, not saying they would but it's nice to have that power when fighting KeSPA. KeSPA seems like a money hungry organization who does not care about players, only money. Not saying GOM is better, aka why idra could not attend dreamhack, but still forcing Nada to gg in a show match AND not letting players touch sc2 even in thier own time sounds like communism. KeSPA = North Korea anyone?
Great point, I never thought of any reason why they wanted to not have LAN besides fighting pirates but now that I see how much conflict they were having with KeSPA it makes sense that they wanted control.
I think the argument of BW being public domain is BS. As far as I know there hasn't been any protection of intellectual property for videogames but I know graphics like sprites, music and sound effects are protected under copyright law. There is limitations like you can have a short portion of a song on tv (something like 5 seconds) but I'm fairly sure the broadcasting of broodwar violates many intellectual property rights of the various assets that blizzard has created.
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I wonder if it happend to somebody else, or its only me. I bought the copy, installed it, put in the cd key....played, logged out, tried to log in again and it didnt work. When i was creating a new account the cd key didnt work obviously, but i have no idea where it went, cause i wasnt using another account. So the best guess is that somebody stole my cd key under a different account. Dont ask me how, I really dont know. I made UBISOFT aware of that, asked them to reset my cd key or if possible give me the account information it was registered to. They are not able to provide me the account information to "my own" account and the wont reset my cd key because apparently its not possible. I have sent them the receit, my old cd- key, all that is required, but still they wont assist me in this. Dont get me wrong, its not about the money, its about the principle. I bought a game, i payed for it, and i cant play it, and the company ist helpfull at all. Iam really considering to take this one to court. Any advice ? cause apparently iam not the only one having this kind of a problem. A guy from france started already a petition against ubisoft. Iam just really surprised that paying customers get treated like robber or even worse. I really think there is something wrong with the company management. How am I not entitled to use a product I payed for ? can somebody explain me ubisoft's logic, because i can see it, Iam sorry. Oh and the game was HAWX 2
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Vatican City State431 Posts
At least KESPA doesn't ban people on youtube casting proleague games...Just saying...
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On December 08 2010 05:49 p14c wrote:
At least KESPA doesn't ban people on youtube casting proleague games...Just saying...
If KESPA provided a legal, for-pay way for non-Koreans to watch, they would close down BW Youtube channels. GOM is 100% justified in this.
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EPT
