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A Korean fan explains why he hates KeSPA - Page 7

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Gamjadori
Profile Joined April 2008
Japan131 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-14 09:06:36
November 14 2010 09:02 GMT
#121
On November 14 2010 17:13 Gonodactylus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2010 17:07 Pleiades wrote:
Yeah... only for the fools who scroll down and agree to the EULA/TOS without actually reading it. Blizzard clearly states what you can do with their product and how much restrictions you have upon it.


Which means every actual customer, no matter what their expertize on IP law is... No one reads them. No one agrees to them. This isn't even disputed so don't try it. There's actual research done on how often these things get read. You only have your lawyers read them if you are an organization/corporation that deals with Blizzard.

Show nested quote +

Of course not all EULAs are legally-bound, but they are a contract you make with the company/developer.


I never went into contract with Blizzard. I had no say in whatever they put in the EULA and I didn't read it. I bought a box with a disc for both SC and SC2. I installed it and as everyone I didn't spend 5 hours reading and translating that wall of text. I never went into any contract with Blizzard. I don't know how you can claim I did, even though I would lose claiming this in US court. Of course I would win anywhere in the EU, which is where I am located.


Here, let me quote Wikipedia to sort this out;

"A software license agreement is a contract between the "licensor" and purchaser of the right to use software. The license may define ways under which the copy can be used, in addition to the automatic rights of the buyer including the first sale doctrine and 17 U.S.C. § 117 (freedom to use, archive, re-sale, and backup).

Many form contracts are only contained in digital form, and only presented to a user as a click-through where the user must "accept". As the user may not see the agreement until after he or she has already purchased the software, these documents may be contracts of adhesion. These documents often call themselves end-user licensing agreements (EULAs)."

So you might argue in THEORY that the EULA could be a "contract of adhesion", it's not likely to hold up in practice, and I'm not aware of any case in either the US or Europe for that matter where someone successfully fought a proper EULA. You chose clicked the "accept" button. You chose to use the product even after the EULA was presented to you. If the EULA was hidden or not presented to you before install, yes, you could argue that you didn't enter a legally binding contract as you had not been made aware of the terms, but as it's impossible to install the game or make a Bnet account without viewing the EULA and accepting it, you're most certainly in an legally binding agreement with Blizzard.

Also, keep in mind that the Korean EULA is different from the US/EU EULA. It don't see how you could possible argue that it's not legally binding because it's American law when the EULA you're accepting is written using local or regional law?
감자돌이 - I like potatoes
Shizuru~
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Malaysia1676 Posts
November 14 2010 09:04 GMT
#122
Great OP that states facts mainly instead of all personal opinions, which lately even in this forum have been flooded by endless amount of mis-informed/un-informed stances unfortunately...


Kespa needs to die for the sake of E-Sports development, not just for Starcraft:Brood War or Starcraft 2 but for the gaming industry as a whole, yes a central governing body is needed when the industry starts to mature, but it will not be Kespa, not a corporate puppet body, but one that is formed by the passionate members of the gaming community, pro-gamers, coaches, managers etc...
Gonodactylus
Profile Joined November 2010
54 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-14 09:09:57
November 14 2010 09:06 GMT
#123
The fact that you have to click 'agree' already shows it's not a fair contract, if it were one, because you do not have the possibility to disagree and still install..

Now I can also start to point out that a software license contract is not the same as an EULA. But when you go so far as calling all those EULA's that failed in court 'not proper', then what is there still to argue?


On November 14 2010 17:49 ribeye wrote:
Thirdly, and admittedly off topic, you're making undergrad seem a bit more prestigious than it is, haha. (No offense to the undergrad law dude. I'm headed to law school myself in about a year)


He's bragging about being an undergrad, not me. BTW, you missed the point of one side having no say as to what is in the contract. A contract is supposed to be something between two equal parties that both parties want and can agree upon. An EULA is not that.

As for morality, laws are supposed to be moral. If they aren't, they are wrong laws even if they win in court. Now mr.undergrad did not read Transformation of American Law. Did you?
TheRabidDeer
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States3806 Posts
November 14 2010 09:09 GMT
#124
On November 14 2010 18:06 Gonodactylus wrote:
The fact that you have to click 'agree' already shows it's not a fair contract, if it were one, because you do not have the possibility to disagree and still install..

Now I can also start to point out that a software license contract is not the same as an EULA. But when you go so far as calling all those EULA's that failed in court 'not proper', then what is there still to argue?



If you disagree with the contract to use the software, why would you be able to install it? You are disagreeing. Thats like saying you order some food at a restaurant, they tell you how much it costs, you disagree then eat the food anyway expecting to not have to pay. Do you have any amount common sense?

PS: I can read the EULA without a law degree and understand it just fine. I highly doubt you have a PhD in it.
cskalias.pbe
Profile Joined April 2010
United States293 Posts
November 14 2010 09:10 GMT
#125
On November 14 2010 14:53 GTR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2010 14:48 doothegee wrote:
Koreans love to hate on anything that is Korean (e.g. Kespa) and love to worship anything that's foreign (Blizzard). I wouldn't be too surprised by any of this.


I completely disagree. I believe Korea is probably one of the fervent, nationalistic cultures in the world.



I totally agree with you. I was born in Seoul but moved when I was 2. And ANY kind of event/person/palce related to korea my parents would make sure i know it was korean-related. They are incredibly nationalistic and especially proud of international recognition.

Some of my friends call it "small country syndome" lol. But it's likely the centuries of being invaded and defending that caused koreans to be so proud (maybe contributes to flash muta dense?!@?!?!)
Gonodactylus
Profile Joined November 2010
54 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-14 09:13:18
November 14 2010 09:12 GMT
#126
You can claim to be able to understand EULA's without a law degree but no one will believe that. Show some humility. Without knowing all the cases and how it was interpreted in court, you don't understand it and you won't know you don't understand it.

You mixing up two things show exactly the problem. If you disagree to the contract you also disagree to wanting to use it. So you are forced into agreeing even if you don't. That's extortion. What if you do want to use the software but don't want to agree to the EULA? What do you do then? You click 'agree' anyway.

Agreeing or disagreeing to a contract should be about only that; the contract. Yet you already bought the software you bought and already went into contract about that with someone else. Why do you need to go into an unfair contract with a third party that took no part in the transaction of the software box?
TheRabidDeer
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States3806 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-14 09:14:08
November 14 2010 09:13 GMT
#127
On November 14 2010 18:12 Gonodactylus wrote:
You can claim to be able to understand EULA's without a law degree but no one will believe that. Show some humility. Without knowing all the cases and how it was interpreted in court, you don't understand it and you won't know you don't understand it.

You mixing up two things show exactly the problem. If you disagree to the contract you also disagree to wanting to use it. So you are forced into agreeing even if you don't. That's extortion. What if you do want to use the software but don't want to agree to the EULA? What do you do then? You agree.

I dont want to pay you to eat this food, but I want to eat the food.

What do you do? You pay.

Also, I understand the EULA just fine. I may not understand the legal possibilities of it, but I understand what they are claiming they can do and what I can do with their product. It is in fairly plain english.
Gonodactylus
Profile Joined November 2010
54 Posts
November 14 2010 09:14 GMT
#128
On November 14 2010 18:13 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I dont want to pay you to eat this food, but I want to eat the food.

What do you do? You pay.


Dishonest analogy. You mix up two things. I point it out. You mix it even more stubbornly.
Zerste
Profile Joined September 2010
United States112 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-14 09:16:13
November 14 2010 09:14 GMT
#129
Gonodactylus, do you attempt to use a credit card without agreeing to their terms?

Using their software is not a right, it's a choice. If you choose to use their software, you must choose to agree to their terms of use. If not, than you are not allowed to use their software. You're arguing this as if it's everybody's right to play this game. It's not.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
November 14 2010 09:16 GMT
#130
Too bad you didn't post this on the BW forum
Gonodactylus
Profile Joined November 2010
54 Posts
November 14 2010 09:18 GMT
#131
If I go into contract with a credit company, I go into contract with a credit company. I don't suddenly also have a contract with Blizzard that I can't understand and didn't agree to.
AyJay
Profile Joined April 2010
1515 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-14 09:27:40
November 14 2010 09:18 GMT
#132
I think this was was already posted in Nada vs TLO showmatch

On November 14 2010 17:19 Selith wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 14 2010 16:31 xBillehx wrote:
Anyone willing to translate this too?
I do love to read/hear what the Korean's think since they're more connected to the situation in Korea than we are, so thanks to Pizzapie for translating.


Sure.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: http://pgr21.com/?b=6&n=43542
Translated upon request. :p


1) Individual League Broadcasting Rights Controversy

1. Artificial merging of MBCGame's team league and OGN's individual leagues

2. Steals the power to open individual leagues, which is made and operated jointly by OGN and MBCGame

3. Talks about rights to broadcasting without permission from Blizzard, who holds IP rights to the game, demands 1.7 billion won for 3 years from the broadcasters. This is the starting point of the IP rights controversy

4. Gave rights to broadcasting to a company that had nothing to do with e-sports, IBSports (parent company: IEG), then runs away with the money (Giving up operating estro)

5. MBCGame Survivor prelim boycott issue

6. KeSPACup, operated by KeSPA, becomes worse than random PC bang leagues

7. Artificially reduces individual leagues (revolving around individual players), while greatly increasing the size of Proleague (revolving around teams), in order to help with advertisement for the companies instead of for the fans

8. 5 days a week play, causing reduced interest in the matches



2) Various operation and rules controversy

9. DQ because a player typed "PP" instead of "PPP" to pause the game. (Later changed)

10. DQ because a player typed "a" in the chat. Controversy risen from the rule that said "-Can- give DQ", which can also mean "-Not- give DQ"

11. DQ for any other variation of "GG" / "gg", such as "WW", "지읒이읒", "zizi yO", "지지요".

12. Giving DQ for leaving the game during countdown due to control miss

13. Ignoring the issue of bug play using SCV (which was clear that the bug play happend) because "there was no rule for that"

14. During the infamous NATE MSL power outage, lied about having a replay when there wasn't

15. KeSPA gave different ranking point adjustment for MSL and StarLeague, causing controversy

16. Due to the "data errors" in KeSPA homepage, controversies happened regarding things like NaDa's win records

17. Due to no accurate data collection, relies on the broadcasting companies to do the data collection. Corporations that sell e-sports related data appears

18. When there was no clear plans for the KeSPA's member corporations, KeSPA demands 2 billion won from the member corporations

19. A player who has been selected by a team, if he declines, he would be barred from entering any progame teams for 3 years. As a result, all would-be progamers become like slaves by forcing to join any team regardless of their stance, once selected

20. Due to the FA policy in 2009, players cannot select what team they would like to join, since the policy forces them to join whichever team offers highest $. This ignores how long the contract would be, just how big of the money total is offered. This FA policy died later

21. Entry pre-announcement caused games to be boring even before they start, reducing popularity of proleague, and could potentially cause match fixing... which does end up happening. Finally, they return to old blinded entry list policy

22. Forcing 2 days of matches in Proleague 08-09 post season results in the infamy for having the least amount of audience ever



3) Attitude towards other games

23. While KeSPA is made because of StarCraft, support for other games are virtually nil. Especially, zero support for WarCraft 3, a game that's only behind StarCraft in terms of popularity

24. Ignoring Kart Rider leagues, causing it to stop for over a year

25. While various players have been selected through KeSPA cup, they did not create any leagues or any other needed support

26. Even the officially registered games such as Special Force and Kart Rider have no employees that manage them at KeSPA

27. Games that had no popularity as e-sports such as Special Force would end up having low viewership count, then infamy at the finals due to that

28. The "Proleague 5 days a week" is the worst system ever, as KeSPA, who should be focusing on even development of e-sports in general, caused StarCraft's pie way too big for other games to join e-sports scene


4) Match fixing controversy

29. They talked the talk during the start of this controversy, but didn't walk the walk during police investigation

30. Ignored rules of going through sanction commission during the process of retiring progamer Mr. Park.

31. Did not even announce progamer Mr. Won's retirement at all, causing concealment controversy

32. Those that had part in match fixing, if they weren't removed via expulsion, they are, by rules, allowed back in after 3 years if they so wish

33. No other way to prevent potential match fixing recurring except through removing entry pre-announcement



5) IP Rights Controversy with Blizzard-Gretech

34. There was a boycott of GOM Classic (sponsored by Gretech), there are suspicions that KeSPA either allowed it or even directed it themselves in secrecy

35. Ordered progamer teams to not participate in StarCraft 2 beta

36. In regards to negotiation with Blizzard about IP rights, KeSPA manipulated journalism then violated NDA

37. Blizzard clearly owns IP rights to StarCraft. Despite that, KeSPA talks about "public property" and even said how "[we] helped with making additional profits for Blizzard"

38. Even great oldbies such as NaDa and BoxeR were declared as the betrayers just because they switched to StarCraft 2

39. Talking nonsense about "effort of e-sports personnel" while using Jaedong as a sacrificial lamb during public hearing

40. KeSPA is trying hard to pass a law that would grant KeSPA a full, unlimited, total IP rights ownership to any and all games that would participate in e-sports

41. Threatening progamers, teams, and related personnel that "something undesirable" may happen should they contact Blizzard or participate in tournaments that Blizzard runs

42. Forced NaDa's StarCraft 2 match, taking place in Germany as an event, to end by calling him while match is still underway

43. The moment NaDa announces his switch to StarCraft 2, KeSPA deleted NaDa's records from the homepage

44. Blizzard said KeSPA's attitude was that they refuse to acknowledge any IP rights whatsoever during negotiation

45. OGN mysteriously canceled StarCraft 2 open broadcasting, there are suspicions that KeSPA had a hand in it

46. Forcing Proleague 10-11 season illegally while the negotiations hasn't ended yet

47. Authorizing MBCGame's forcing of BigFile MSL, Kyong-nam STX cup, and PDPop MSL, which are all illegal

48. Tells Gretech that KeSPA will pay 300 million won per year, which would include rights to open and operate proleague AND individual leagues. This is not fair considering how they took 1.7 billion won from IEG for 3 years

49. Tries to stall the talks by continually changing negotiation terms during negotiation talks

50. Trying to make KeSPA as the lead and operator of StarCraft 2 e-sports in negotiation

51. Ignoring the opinion of fans, KeSPA shows that their actions only focus on their own profits and using force to see it through


* For more information, take a look at '한국E스포츠협회', '프로리그 중계권 사태', '스타크래프트 승부조작스캔들', '스타크래프트 저작권 분쟁' from AngelHalo wiki (Editor's note: I use AngelHalo wiki a lot, and they have very in-depth details on those articles)



I described this as "50+a reasons" because I thought that 50 might not be all of the reason. I wanted to just shut up, not put up any reply, and stay quiet, but I wanted to state "It's already too late" to the opinions of "KeSPA must exist, even after all the faults". I don't see Gretech and Blizzard as the absolute right, and I've already criticized some of Gretech's actions through previous writings and replies. But, it is for certain that KeSPA is an absolute evil. They only care about the logic of the corporations and profits all the while ignoring the fans. My thought is that this doesn't even deserve any criticism, and only solution is complete dissolution of KeSPA.

Anyway, I want this situation to end in a happy note for e-sports fan, and I really hope for the day when we can watch progamers and their awesome plays in whatever games they may play -- whether it be StarCraft 1 or 2.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Holy shit I knew KeSPA was dick organization, but this...? How can they even talk about esports when they provide little support for other games? Thanks for translation!
Meiya
Profile Joined August 2007
Australia1169 Posts
November 14 2010 09:20 GMT
#133
Excellent translation, thank you very much OP.

Ugh. I didn't have much of an opinion on this topic before as I knew little about it, and from looking at the surface of it I was not a fan of Blizzard's actions. However, after reading this KeSPA comes across as a comicbook megacorporation, basically the Weyland-Yutani of e-sports. I'm actually happy to see Blizzard taking a real stand against them, this along with their mass hacker bans makes me feel quite secure in Blizzard's hardline stance against those trying to destroy their games.

Paying reporters to throw mud at Starcraft 2 and 'enslaving' progamers is truly disgusting, I hope KeSPA loses their monopoly completely and more fairminded companies cannibalise their empire.
Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands.
orgolove
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Vatican City State1650 Posts
November 14 2010 09:20 GMT
#134
Hm, gj. I was going to translate this but couldn't be bothered. This is exactly why I find it so funny that all the foreign fans are dissing on Blizzard and supporting Kespa, while all the koreans are dissing Kespa and supporting Blizzard.
초대 갓, 이영호 | First God, Lee Young Ho
IntoTheEmo
Profile Joined February 2009
Singapore1169 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-14 09:27:26
November 14 2010 09:21 GMT
#135
On November 14 2010 18:04 Shizuru~ wrote:
Great OP that states facts mainly instead of all personal opinions, which lately even in this forum have been flooded by endless amount of mis-informed/un-informed stances unfortunately...


Kespa needs to die for the sake of E-Sports development, not just for Starcraft:Brood War or Starcraft 2 but for the gaming industry as a whole, yes a central governing body is needed when the industry starts to mature, but it will not be Kespa, not a corporate puppet body, but one that is formed by the passionate members of the gaming community, pro-gamers, coaches, managers etc...


So you DO mean KeSPA... instead of one that is formed by the corporation that made the game and controls every aspect of it?

Either way, the title reads "A Korean fan explains why he hates KeSPA", thus it is a personal opinion based on one's interpretation of events~

Also, to many people, death of KeSPA IS death of BW... and all things resulting from it...

PPS: The lawsuit predictions and analogies need to stop, one could write a book about it with all the misinformed posts since this became a hot topic a few months ago.

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=163343
MMOs kill APM. However Proleague plus BW Proscene music increase APM -> 100. 이제동 Fighting! Highest ranked Jaedong owner in FPL10 = clearly #1 Jaedong fan~! <- Keeping my sig from 2010
TheRabidDeer
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
United States3806 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-14 09:23:18
November 14 2010 09:22 GMT
#136
On November 14 2010 18:14 Gonodactylus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2010 18:13 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I dont want to pay you to eat this food, but I want to eat the food.

What do you do? You pay.


Dishonest analogy. You mix up two things. I point it out. You mix it even more stubbornly.

It is hardly a dishonest analogy. And I am about to blow your mind:

On the top of the box of the game that you bought at the store, it reads:
"The use of this software product is subject to the terms of an End User License Agreement available at "http://www.starcraft2.com/legal/eula.html, and all use of the product is subject to your registration of a Battle.net account and your acceptance of the Battle.net Terms of Use."

You know going into the purchase what the eula is, how to access it, and whether you agree with it. You have no excuse.

To clarify, this is printed on the outside of the box and is clearly visible to anybody prior to purchase.
Zerste
Profile Joined September 2010
United States112 Posts
November 14 2010 09:22 GMT
#137
On November 14 2010 17:13 Gonodactylus wrote:
No one reads them. No one agrees to them. This isn't even disputed so don't try it. There's actual research done on how often these things get read.

I never went into contract with Blizzard. I had no say in whatever they put in the EULA and I didn't read it. I bought a box with a disc for both SC and SC2. I installed it and as everyone I didn't spend 5 hours reading and translating that wall of text. I never went into any contract with Blizzard. I don't know how you can claim I did, even though I would lose claiming this in US court. Of course I would win anywhere in the EU, which is where I am located.


Not reading something that you agree to by using your own fingers to agree to it without anybody forcing you to do so is how you agreed to their terms of use. Ignorance of what you're agreeing to is nobody's fault but your own. If I get pulled over for speeding, I don't tell the officer I didn't read the speed limit sign and can therefore not be punished.
ribeye
Profile Joined September 2010
United States27 Posts
November 14 2010 09:23 GMT
#138
On November 14 2010 18:06 Gonodactylus wrote:
He's bragging about being an undergrad, not me. BTW, you missed the point of one side having no say as to what is in the contract. A contract is supposed to be something between two equal parties that both parties want and can agree upon. An EULA is not that.

As for morality, laws are supposed to be moral. If they aren't, they are wrong laws even if they win in court. Now mr.undergrad did not read Transformation of American Law. Did you?


I didn't miss a point. A contract is merely a formal, legally binding, and usually in some form written agreement between two parties. It does not have to include the wants and needs of both sides for an agreement to take place. Have you ever heard of a non-negotiable contract?

And sure, laws are supposed to be moral, but that still has no relevance at all in this argument.
Gonodactylus
Profile Joined November 2010
54 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-14 09:27:06
November 14 2010 09:26 GMT
#139
If there's 4/5 people over and over making false analogies, not understanding IP rights, and saying that Kespa enslaves progamers and other crazy stuff, I can't argue against all that just by sheer size of volume.

I have to concede because this is not a fair debate. I can't win no matter how right I am. Enjoy the victory. Also enjoy esports where players have no rights whatsoever.
Zerste
Profile Joined September 2010
United States112 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-14 09:28:35
November 14 2010 09:27 GMT
#140
On November 14 2010 18:26 Gonodactylus wrote:
If there's 4/5 people over and over making false analogies, not understanding IP rights, and saying that Kespa enslaves progamers and other crazy stuff, I can't argue against all that just by sheer size of volume.

I have to concede because this is not a fair debate. I can't win no matter how right I am. Enjoy the victory. Also enjoy esports where players have no rights whatsoever.


You're arguing that the EULA isn't fair, which it most likely isn't. We're telling you it's irrelevant whether it's fair or not, because you agreed to it by clicking agree.

I enjoy that part particularly considering how KESPA was the one telling players they're not allowed to play in GOM's Classic.
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