EPTNew ladder maps! - Page 25
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:27 iCCup.Diamond wrote: Actually you got proven wrong. Read up a couple posts. Sorry. Okay, you are correct on semantics. That definitely proves your maps are superior. Congrats :D | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:29 Ocedic wrote: Okay, you are correct on semantics. That definitely proves your maps are superior. Congrats :D No that doesn't. However the results provided by top level players does. I tend to trust those. | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:03 QuothTheRaven wrote: Cool vs. IntoTheRainbow (aka HopeTorture), game 1 of GSL grand finals. IntoTheRainbow opts to put his barracks right next to his command center, vs. an opponent who is known for going 6pool (he 6pooled InCa in the Ro8), in the opening set of a match that's worth over $50,000. I'm sure he was confident that he could hold off the 6pool. Um, he walled with rax/factory. On a 4 player map. Cool vs IntoTheRainbow, game 2 of GSL finals, he also does the same thing: rax next to his CC. Later lifts the rax and builds a factory to make a walloff much later in the game. Again, that's walling, and it's a 4 player map. No one's going to six pool and flip a coin as to where to rally their lings in a tournament. I do the exact same thing on 4 player maps against zerg. This retarded discussion started by some geniuses saying terran and toss shouldn't be able to wall off at all, because zerg can't. I'm not saying I need to absolutely build the depot/rax/depot wall at every choke always, there are maps and builds that complete a wall later. But on short rush distance maps you wall because lings in your base when your first rine is 30-40 seconds from being out is Very Bad. | ||
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mOnion
United States5651 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:25 Ocedic wrote: I like how you ignore the point where I dismantle your "less BW than original" argument. Also, reading comprehension check: I didn't mention anything about competency. Do you know what an implication is? when you say "with a 'CEO' talking like this how can you not love this organization" you're saying that because of the manner in which he conducts himself online he doesn't meet the criteria you've set for a TO. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
Yeah I'm an idiot for bringing legitimate criticism and analysis to Iccup maps instead of blindly accepting them like sheep. Only Iccup supporters are allowed to write in an angry rant style apparently. You're an idiot for attacking someone whos contributed so much in such a varied way to the community with stupid generalizations made from ignorance. The fact that some of your criticisms happened to be relavent was mere coincidence. Kind of like Hitler disliking meat. | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:30 iCCup.Diamond wrote: No that doesn't. However the results provided by top level players does. I tend to trust those. By results you mean zero "must-watch" games by top level players on Iccup maps. | ||
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shannn
Netherlands2891 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:31 kojinshugi wrote: Um, he walled with rax/factory. On a 4 player map. Again, that's walling, and it's a 4 player map. No one's going to six pool and flip a coin as to where to rally their lings in a tournament. I do the exact same thing on 4 player maps against zerg. This retarded discussion started by some geniuses saying terran and toss shouldn't be able to wall off at all, because zerg can't. I'm not saying I need to absolutely build the depot/rax/depot wall at every choke always, there are maps and builds that complete a wall later. But on short rush distance maps you wall because lings in your base when your first rine is 30-40 seconds from being out is Very Bad. Cool vs Inca @ Kulas Ravine. 6pool on a 4 player map and he tried to wall off but got his pylon broken which is what costed him the game. Will post later on more from pro gamers. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
Heres the second part of my response to Diamond People like shiny shit, history has proved this time and time again. Huh? Obviously that isn't a universal truth, even you sort of admit that... Your maps could be a lot shiner then they are now. Look at Match Point or Princess Frog. Both aren't shiny at all. Obviously, people on your team can see that there is a balance between simplicity and functionalism, and "shiny shit", and recognize the value in simple aesthetics.. Apparently, so does blizzard, as evident by most of there maps. My suggestion would be in this regard, you could consider the aesthetic standards of blizzard maps and improve on them, rather then make changes that could alienate them of your maps. Maps like Starchild and Princess Frog are amazing examples of this, but some of your maps I think make excessive use of bump mapping on playable terrain, or just seem kind of "out there" in general (triforce lol), and excessive doodad usage on the playing area. (this is a good example of the last one. + Show Spoiler + http://img833.imageshack.us/i/terrain001m.jpg/ In regards to bumpmapping, I can see why Blizzard would try to avoid that. All terrain elements in SC2 besides the random stuff on the unplayable terrain floor serves a pragmatic purpose. Cliffs, Destructible Terrain and site blockers all effect gameplay in addition to aesthetic, and even the odd doodad (which are used extremely sparingly on the playing field), all effect the game, by blocking pathing and/or limiting vision. The only purely aesthetic terrain detail would be the actual textures. The issue with bumpmapping, when used anything but extremely sparingly, on the playable field, is that it creates a false standard. It does nothing, yet it can dramatically change the aesthetics of the terrain in a way that implies it does something. Now I know that sounds kind of trivial and stupid for advanced players, but its a inconsistency that blizzard would probably perceive as unintuitive. ex: New player moves from level terrain to extremely uneven terrain. Intuitively, there is an effect, like how elevations block vision, but in reality, there is none. In fact you can even build on these areas of uneven terrain. Obviously most of blizzard maps are too cramped out. I think some of your maps offer a great balance between terran and open terrain, and aesthetics versus simplicity. Maps like Fury or Enigma. Other maps of yours seem overly polarized, like as the other person pointed out, though really, Matchpoint isn't the biggest offender. -------- ICCup maps i've played on (BW ports) are simply brilliant for SC2 they align expos in a line that isnt straight, forcing the player to put more effort into scouting then simply taking the watchtower and creating multiple paths that allow you to use cutsey stuff like borrowed zerglings for mapcontrol and most importantly they have multiple choke points from one base to another unlike Blizzard maps that sorta go like oh you missed terran moving out there, GG. I agree. This is one of the elements I enjoy the most out of the custom melee maps I've played. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:32 Ocedic wrote: By results you mean zero "must-watch" games by top level players on Iccup maps. Lol now you're just being an ass. QXC vs. Monkey, Fenix vs. SeleCT, should I go on? Edit: Actually I won't go on. Your hating just to hate and it's 4:30AM. I'm going to bed. | ||
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teekuppi
78 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
I'm not a diehard fan of every iCCup map. But that's the point isn't it. The game is young, we won't know what maps are awesome maps unless we try out a lot of them. It is honestly very impressive the number of top level players Diamond is capable of getting to test out their maps on iCCup.tv, and that really says something about him as a person and an organizer. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:32 Half wrote: You're an idiot for attacking someone whos contributed so much in such a varied way to the community with stupid generalizations made from ignorance. The fact that some of your criticisms happened to be relavent was mere coincidence. Kind of like Hitler disliking meat. You reap what you sow. Basically the attitude of Diamond and his supporters (ravenous, zealous fans like you) is what makes me roll my eyes every time he begs someone to use his maps in a tourney. Instead of treating the integration of custom maps as an open discourse, he (and people like you) propel his view as the absolute truth, in a game that is 2 months old. In other words, he presents opinions as facts. But please continue the ad hominem and strawman tactics, it basically proves my point. | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:14 shannn wrote: Cool vs IntoTheRainbow, game 2 of GSL finals, he also does the same thing: rax next to his CC. Later lifts the rax and builds a factory to make a walloff much later in the game. This clearly already contradicts your entire statement. Not every Terran wall offs in the beginning. And not walling off against someone who actually 6pools in important matches is even more baller or are you saying that ITR is a noob compared to you because then we should all listen to you and all of your posts regarding Terran.[/quote] Cool is not retarded enough to six pool on a 4 player map. ITR knows this and can therefore tighten his build by making the rax close to his CC. He does actually wall off. Are you seriously saying that you know better than ITR who does not wall off in the beginning? I didn't say "Terrans always build their rax at their ramp". I said "Terrans always wall off against zerg". Which he did. In both games. I do the exact same build on 4 players maps against Z. Because it's safe (six pool highly unlikely) and works for early mid game (good wall against blings, hellions can leave to harass without lifting buildings). EDIT: Cool vs Inca @ Kulas Ravine. 6pool on a 4 player map and he tried to wall off but got his pylon broken which is what costed him the game. Will post later on more from pro gamers. Total coin flip by Cool. 99.9% of the time no one will. And Inca was nowhere near getting his zealot out (he started it late). And he's toss. The argument here is about being able to wall off before the six pool arrives, which terran can do. Actually, this argument is completely retarded, and I have better things to do than argue with retarded people. I concede. Please remove the concept of walling in from the game and give every race a Queen. Walling off is a terrible crutch that I, as a terrible scrubby gold league player, use to 1at my way to victory. | ||
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Fodder03
Canada142 Posts
You are fucking retarded please dont ever post again. I dont care if i get banned it needed to be said. Edit: quoted wrong person User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:34 Ketara wrote: I've seen some REALLY good games on Match Point. I'm not a diehard fan of every iCCup map. But that's the point isn't it. The game is young, we won't know what maps are awesome maps unless we try out a lot of them. It is honestly very impressive the number of top level players Diamond is capable of getting to test out their maps on iCCup.tv, and that really says something about him as a person and an organizer. And on that note...I actually think Match Point has an appropriate amount of open space lol. The maps a tad bit on the plain side, but it really doesn't suffer from the "too much open space" thing hes talking about. Maps that have too much open space imo, are maps like Sanshorn Sands, Hades, TRCC, Valhalla, Devotion, and to a lesser extent, Princess Frog (though I love that maps aesthetic design lol). You reap what you sow. Basically the attitude of Diamond and his supporters (ravenous, zealous fans like you) is what makes me roll my eyes every time he begs someone to use his maps in a tourney. Instead of treating the integration of custom maps as an open discourse, he (and people like you) propel his view as the absolute truth, in a game that is 2 months old. In other words, he presents opinions as facts. But please continue the ad hominem and strawman tactics, it basically proves my point. Sorry, I know you're trolling, but your accusations don't even make sense. Why do you think I quoted such a trash pos post besides to try and salvage a discussion from it? On October 07 2010 17:41 Fodder03 wrote: @Ocedic You are fucking retarded please dont ever post again. I dont care if i get banned it needed to be said. Edit: quoted wrong person Edit out I dont care if i get banned it needed to be said. This part. Googogo. Mods always ban for Martyring. Maybe they'll be lenient on you and not ban, after all, he is an absolute idiot/troll. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Are you saying that Blizzard shouldn't be paying any attention to community made melee maps? Or are you saying that they specifically shouldn't be paying any attention to the iCCup maps because the iCCup people are elitist? I can wholeheartedly agree that the people on Team Liquid are too quick to jump on Blizzards ass about their maps, and the issues are not as bad as people like to make them look. But there are some issues that essentially cannot be argued, which Blizzard has even admitted. And attacking a group of people that want to help and more or less cannot help because Blizzard won't discuss anything with them openly doesn't help anything. I don't really understand what you're arguing besides getting pissed because people called you an idiot. | ||
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ScarletKnight
United States691 Posts
I've watched a lot of matches on the ICCup maps on stream and I like a lot of them. Match Point is probably my favorite and I would love to see some of them implemented on ladder. I think another way around this whole map problem is to just make an option for custom games to be ranked. Blizzard gets to keep their quick match ladder maps and all us people who like ICCup maps or custom maps in general get to play games on maps that we believe are balanced more/enjoy more. and LOL @ the battlenet posters. Some of them are suggesting implementing rising lava into maps like that one campaign mission saying it will balance out the matchups or that it would make it 'cooler'. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:38 Ocedic wrote: You reap what you sow. Basically the attitude of Diamond and his supporters (ravenous, zealous fans like you) is what makes me roll my eyes every time he begs someone to use his maps in a tourney. Instead of treating the integration of custom maps as an open discourse, he (and people like you) propel his view as the absolute truth, in a game that is 2 months old. In other words, he presents opinions as facts. But please continue the ad hominem and strawman tactics, it basically proves my point. I have to ask why are you being such an ass? The iccup maps are good sure some aren't as good as others but their all 100 times better then blizzard maps. I don't see why you have to diss the maps like they are shitty when they are far from it. | ||
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