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On October 07 2010 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:28 kojinshugi wrote:On October 07 2010 14:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:
The same way protoss and zerg stop them? Make a bunker, make marines, use workers... you know, defend. Toss and terran wall off against Z for a reason. Lings are too fast for rines and zealots to handle if they can run around as they please. The idea of stopping 6 pools with bunkers is pretty hilarious though. Kudos. Terran is DESIGNED to wall off against MELEE units. These walloffs put critical structures in vulnerable positions. Seriously, this is Starcraft, not Age of Empires. Terran is not DESIGNED to wall off against melee units. You do realize that in BW the "wall" wasnt even discovered for a long time, right? Terran just made early bunkers and marines against rushes. You might have to 9 rax against a 6 pool... god forbid you do something that is not 12 rax 13 refinery. EDIT: Are all terrans this spoiled with walls? You really think you cant survive without one? Disappointing to say the least...
This just in, SC2 isn't Brood War.
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On October 07 2010 16:34 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:11 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On October 07 2010 16:03 Subversion wrote:
omg the responses on blizz forums to diamond's post honestly make me want to punch kittens.
thank fuck we have TL. Actually I was enjoying MOST of the replies (as they are mostly in support). For a moment I was literally thinking "Wow this is surprising. Maybe the b.net forums aren't that bad anymore." Then I accidentally clicked this topic. Yeah they started off well (other TLers I think lending their support) then some people started posting some really, really stupid shit like they know anything about anything ("most" of ICCUP maps are BW ports... fuck me...) and it just makes me rage. It's like this perfect storm of ignorance and arrogance. Would love to keep the topic open for you all night (I live in Korea, its 4pm here right now lol) but I don't have an NA account so it's not letting me post on there 
Yeah cant argue with the stats. 25% remakes is nothing big. I'm actually quite pleased with that number.
Don't worry, just cross your fingers and when I wake up it'll the the FIRST TIME EVER I check the b.net forums before TL (which is the first website I always check  )!
On October 07 2010 16:36 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:37 TheRabidDeer wrote:On October 07 2010 15:28 kojinshugi wrote:On October 07 2010 14:52 TheRabidDeer wrote:
The same way protoss and zerg stop them? Make a bunker, make marines, use workers... you know, defend. Toss and terran wall off against Z for a reason. Lings are too fast for rines and zealots to handle if they can run around as they please. The idea of stopping 6 pools with bunkers is pretty hilarious though. Kudos. Terran is DESIGNED to wall off against MELEE units. These walloffs put critical structures in vulnerable positions. Seriously, this is Starcraft, not Age of Empires. Terran is not DESIGNED to wall off against melee units. You do realize that in BW the "wall" wasnt even discovered for a long time, right? Terran just made early bunkers and marines against rushes. You might have to 9 rax against a 6 pool... god forbid you do something that is not 12 rax 13 refinery. EDIT: Are all terrans this spoiled with walls? You really think you cant survive without one? Disappointing to say the least... This just in, SC2 isn't Brood War.
This just in, the game developers designed the Terran race with walling in mind.
Edit: By the way, if anyone can find me that post of Baishok saying the current map pool is not a fair playing field, I have a feeling I will need that soon  !
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On October 07 2010 15:39 mOnion wrote:
and as such the skill req. is higher in this game
what do you do when 2gate happens in yo main??? @_@ UNSTOPPABLE!!!
It doesn't because I scout my main.
you know if you build things really tight to your command center it allows you to beat rushes by placing a bunker in your mineral lines when you spot the cheese.
I don't wall against toss if he's not going proxy 2 gate.
It's impossible to beat a 6 pool without walling. You'll have one marine out at best unless you go some retarded super early rax build.
Seriously, people complaining that zerg can't wall and terran and toss can should quit playing. It's absolutely pants-on-head retarded.
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On October 07 2010 16:39 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:39 mOnion wrote:
and as such the skill req. is higher in this game
what do you do when 2gate happens in yo main??? @_@ UNSTOPPABLE!!! It doesn't because I scout my main. Show nested quote +you know if you build things really tight to your command center it allows you to beat rushes by placing a bunker in your mineral lines when you spot the cheese. I don't wall against toss if he's not going proxy 2 gate. It's impossible to beat a 6 pool without walling. You'll have one marine out at best unless you go some retarded super early rax build. Seriously, people complaining that zerg can't wall and terran and toss can should quit playing. It's absolutely pants-on-head retarded.
you're terrible. I see non walling terrans beat 6 pool all the time and I beat 6pool all the time as toss without walling.
i also 2gate in main's of T's all the time and they don't scout me till they scout my main and they can still stop it by doing what i suggested
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thnx for removing kulas and desert i hated those maps!
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Those maps may be fun, guess we will gonna find out. It is not true all blizz maps are horrible, maps like metalopolis or xelnaga caverns are tbh very good.
And seriously iCCup.people we know you want ppl to play on your maps but mass flaming blizzard maps is just low.
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On October 07 2010 16:39 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:39 mOnion wrote:
and as such the skill req. is higher in this game
what do you do when 2gate happens in yo main??? @_@ UNSTOPPABLE!!! It doesn't because I scout my main. Show nested quote +you know if you build things really tight to your command center it allows you to beat rushes by placing a bunker in your mineral lines when you spot the cheese. I don't wall against toss if he's not going proxy 2 gate. It's impossible to beat a 6 pool without walling. You'll have one marine out at best unless you go some retarded super early rax build. Seriously, people complaining that zerg can't wall and terran and toss can should quit playing. It's absolutely pants-on-head retarded.
Are you serious or is my sarcasm radar telling me you're just being sarcastic?
If 6pooling was unbeatable without walling off why do most pro gamers not wall off all the time against zerg? It's because they build their buildings tight to their mineral lines thus making an effective wall-off unlike wall-off at ramp. This wall-off will have more advantages than walling off at ramp.
And 6 lings vs your 12-14 probes = easy win for probes and with micro no losses too.
This goes the same as with Terran. Terran probably has it even easier with bunkers.
Edit:
+ Show Spoiler + This sig tells me why you're having a lot of troubles with 6pool cheese. You probably haven't experienced how to stop 6pool and other cheeses effectively yet (or your macro isn't decent enough).
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On October 07 2010 16:39 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 15:39 mOnion wrote:
and as such the skill req. is higher in this game
what do you do when 2gate happens in yo main??? @_@ UNSTOPPABLE!!! It doesn't because I scout my main. Show nested quote +you know if you build things really tight to your command center it allows you to beat rushes by placing a bunker in your mineral lines when you spot the cheese. I don't wall against toss if he's not going proxy 2 gate. It's impossible to beat a 6 pool without walling. You'll have one marine out at best unless you go some retarded super early rax build. Seriously, people complaining that zerg can't wall and terran and toss can should quit playing. It's absolutely pants-on-head retarded.
Actually, walling can be a disadvantage vs a 6pool, since a 6pool comes so fast that you (most likely) won't have completed your wall in time. This then leaves your barracks exposed and vulnerable, so that when your marine finishes there won't be nearby SCVs to support him. Moreover, you have about 5 less seconds to finish the marine, since the barracks is closer to your opponent than it would have been if you had placed it near your CC.
One situation where we can see this pretty clearly is the ZvP between Cool and oGsInCa, game 1 on Kulas Ravine. Cool opts for a 6pool, and even though they were crossmap the zerglings arrived slightly before the first zealot was finished. Because InCa was doing a forward walloff at his choke, there were no probes nearby to defend and his pylon was left vulnerable. Cool was able to snipe the pylon and barely go on to win the game, after a whole lot of careful zergling micro to avoid dying to the probes.
That's a ZvP example, but the ZvT situation is similar. If you are using a tight formation around your command center, you can create some extremely powerful chokes, allowing one marine and some nice SCV micro to handle 6pool fairly easily.
Of course, if Z is going for a later pool and getting speed, you'll want the walloff. We've actually seen quite a few games in the GSL (and I believe some from MorroW as well) where the Terran will build the barracks close to his CC, saving mineral time and reducing vulnerability to 6pool, and then lift and float the barracks to make a later walloff around the time when a speedling allin or a later pool would hit (of course, T only does this when he's planning an opening that doesn't involve building lots of marines, like a hellion opening for example).
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On October 07 2010 16:52 SnowB wrote:
Those maps may be fun, guess we will gonna find out. It is not true all blizz maps are horrible, maps like metalopolis or xelnaga caverns are tbh very good.
And seriously iCCup.people we know you want ppl to play on your maps but mass flaming blizzard maps is just low.
lol its not flaming, this is a huge issue that has yet to be discussed by blizzard. the OP diamond made is very well thought out and addresses all of the spawn issues with blizzards maps and suggests ideas to reform this
ICCUP is all suits all the time.
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So right after they updated Desert Oasis to make it an actually decent map, they end up removing it from the ladder pool? Kulas could also be fixed pretty easily, IMO just remove the rocks blocking access to your nat and it'd be a lot more balanced than it currently is.
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On October 07 2010 16:43 mOnion wrote:
you're terrible. I see non walling terrans beat 6 pool all the time and I beat 6pool all the time as toss without walling.
Where do you even see terrans not wall against Z? Even without cheese it's absolutely necessary to stop scouting, to stop speedling harass and burrowed infestors moseying on in.
Yeah, sure, I can kill the six lings with workers and my first rine but it cripples my economy. The idea of cheese builds is that you can counter them if you scout them without the enemy bringing your economy down to his crippled level.
And every competent toss walls against Z with their first zealot on hold position at their choke.
i also 2gate in main's of T's all the time and they don't scout me till they scout my main and they can still stop it by doing what i suggested
Okay, so you play against retarded people who let probes sneak into their main? Good for you.
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Ocedic from the Battle.net forums wrote wrote:
It's clear that 95% of people who support Iccup maps haven't actually played them. A lot of them are just straight ports of BW maps with minimal conversions besides making center resources gold (which is a horrible move.)
Iccup maps basically expect the maps to translate flawlessly to SC2, which they don't. Most of them have huge empty, dead space that goes unused. Most maps make poor or completely no use of Xel Naga towers to promote map control, movement and positional awareness. Instead the center is just a huge space for Brood War style skirmishes, as the Iccup map makers have not heard of unlimited unit selection.
One of the maps, Match Point, actually has an expo with minerals only. Do you guys even play SC2? Give one gas or a rich gas, but at least pretend to give a damn about SC2 mechanics instead of waving around your maps because they were played in BW.
So yes, bring in custom maps, but not these crappy Iccup ones.
This guy is clearly an idiot, but I think he brings up a few important points of discussion. Do the large, open, spaces of BW have a place in SC2 now that units cluster so much easier? And on a more broader note, are the current custom maps out there a little bit to disparate from Blizzards "style" of melee maps?
Some employ tools which blizzard has been hesitant in using (bump mapping build-able terrain), others feel very thematically separate from the aesthetic style of blizzard maps (Emphasis on Aesthetic simplicity)
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On October 07 2010 17:01 Half wrote:
This guy is clearly an idiot, but I think he brings up a few important points of discussion. Do the large, open, spaces of BW have a place in SC2 now that units cluster so much easier?
Yes. Tank lines and proper surrounding/flanking becomes possible again, among other things.
And on a more broader note, are the current custom maps out there a little bit to disparate from Blizzards "style" of melee maps? Some employ tools which blizzard has been hesitant in using (bump mapping build-able terrain), others feel very thematically separate from the aesthetic style of blizzard maps (Emphasis on Aesthetic simplicity)
People like shiny shit, history has proved this time and time again.
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On October 07 2010 16:59 kojinshugi wrote:
Where do you even see terrans not wall against Z? Even without cheese it's absolutely necessary to stop scouting, to stop speedling harass and burrowed infestors moseying on in.
Cool vs. IntoTheRainbow (aka HopeTorture), game 1 of GSL grand finals.
IntoTheRainbow opts to put his barracks right next to his command center, vs. an opponent who is known for going 6pool (he 6pooled InCa in the Ro8), in the opening set of a match that's worth over $50,000. I'm sure he was confident that he could hold off the 6pool.
Cool vs IntoTheRainbow, game 2 of GSL finals, he also does the same thing: rax next to his CC. Later lifts the rax and builds a factory to make a walloff much later in the game.
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On October 07 2010 16:36 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Edit: By the way, if anyone can find me that post of Baishok saying the current map pool is not a fair playing field, I have a feeling I will need that soon !
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/628080361?page=2#26
Oh WHOOPS, that's not it. I didn't read it before posting I win.
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Not that, he followed up a couple days later saying the current map pool "is not a level playing field" or something to that degree.
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On October 07 2010 16:59 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:43 mOnion wrote:
you're terrible. I see non walling terrans beat 6 pool all the time and I beat 6pool all the time as toss without walling. Where do you even see terrans not wall against Z? Even without cheese it's absolutely necessary to stop scouting, to stop speedling harass and burrowed infestors moseying on in. Yeah, sure, I can kill the six lings with workers and my first rine but it cripples my economy. The idea of cheese builds is that you can counter them if you scout them without the enemy bringing your economy down to his crippled level. And every competent toss walls against Z with their first zealot on hold position at their choke. Show nested quote +i also 2gate in main's of T's all the time and they don't scout me till they scout my main and they can still stop it by doing what i suggested Okay, so you play against retarded people who let probes sneak into their main? Good for you.
YUP. good for me.
you're a lost cause.
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ok, I'm at work eating my breakfast while checking the maps (only 30h-job, I always arrive ahead of time so I can check TL before I start lol)
from the graphics/overview it seems like tanks could be able to shoot from natural to natural on shakuras plateau - plz tell me I'm wrong?
although I have to try the maps first of course, I don't like them from seeing them; it seems like on shakuras when on cross or vertical positions, terran gets an expo for free - they can build the CC in base and fly it horizontally over the rocks to the expo in the top or bottom middle early; going there would mean to circle around the WHOLE map AND killing the rocks; it's an offer to "plz plz raid my main and kill all my stuff NOW"
also dislike the rocks at the back-entrance; blistering has it, it is occasionally fun to play with it, but I seriously don't need blistering vol_02;
furthermore I don't get why blizz insists on implementing the stupid, stupid small plateaus that just favour terran heavily; terran is strong as it is, no need to create maps that help them even more
why not make a map with an easily defendable expo, NO LEDGES in the middle but many important choke-points?
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On October 07 2010 16:59 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:43 mOnion wrote:
you're terrible. I see non walling terrans beat 6 pool all the time and I beat 6pool all the time as toss without walling. Where do you even see terrans not wall against Z? Even without cheese it's absolutely necessary to stop scouting, to stop speedling harass and burrowed infestors moseying on in. Yeah, sure, I can kill the six lings with workers and my first rine but it cripples my economy. The idea of cheese builds is that you can counter them if you scout them without the enemy bringing your economy down to his crippled level. And every competent toss walls against Z with their first zealot on hold position at their choke. Show nested quote +i also 2gate in main's of T's all the time and they don't scout me till they scout my main and they can still stop it by doing what i suggested Okay, so you play against retarded people who let probes sneak into their main? Good for you.
Seriously are you trolling !?!?!?!?
How can you say these things if you're not that experienced.
6pool is not impossible to stop even if you don't wall off.
Just look at the GSL (most notably the grand finale!).
It's more likely that you're at a very early stage of starcraft beginner and does not know how to stop 6pool without walling off.
I'm not saying you shouldn't wall off vs 6pool but only that it is possible to stop a 6pool without a wall off. Please refrain yourself from posting such nonsense about 6pool being unstoppable without wall off.
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isn't it a bit early for the majority to hit the "DISLIKE" buttom? lets give them some weeks and see how they fairout first -,-'
and yes im aware that they are not new maps, but the majority(including myself) haven't played them yet to judge
(altough im pretty sure ICCUP maps still are far superior)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://sc2sig.com/s/eu/834596-1.png)
