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On October 07 2010 17:32 Half wrote:Show nested quote +
Yeah I'm an idiot for bringing legitimate criticism and analysis to Iccup maps instead of blindly accepting them like sheep. Only Iccup supporters are allowed to write in an angry rant style apparently.
You're an idiot for attacking someone whos contributed so much in such a varied way to the community with stupid generalizations made from ignorance. The fact that some of your criticisms happened to be relavent was mere coincidence. Kind of like Hitler disliking meat.
That analogy made absolutely no sense.
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I was very happy when Blizzard removed Shakuras Plateau from the map pool in beta, and now it's back -_- I really hope that Jungle Basin will be better but I don't understand why they change Desert Oasis lately just to remove it after two weeks...
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On October 07 2010 17:47 Ingruz wrote:
I was very happy when Blizzard removed Shakuras Plateau from the map pool in beta, and now it's back -_- I really hope that Jungle Basin will be better but I don't understand why they change Desert Oasis lately just to remove it after two weeks...
It's a roation.
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On October 07 2010 17:47 Ingruz wrote:
I was very happy when Blizzard removed Shakuras Plateau from the map pool in beta, and now it's back -_- I really hope that Jungle Basin will be better but I don't understand why they change Desert Oasis lately just to remove it after two weeks...
its actually a display of how far ahead blizzard is thinking with their patches and fixes.
they fix a map, only to remove it completely a few weeks later.
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On October 07 2010 17:39 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:14 shannn wrote:
Cool vs IntoTheRainbow, game 2 of GSL finals, he also does the same thing: rax next to his CC. Later lifts the rax and builds a factory to make a walloff much later in the game. This clearly already contradicts your entire statement. Not every Terran wall offs in the beginning. And not walling off against someone who actually 6pools in important matches is even more baller or are you saying that ITR is a noob compared to you because then we should all listen to you and all of your posts regarding Terran.
Cool is not retarded enough to six pool on a 4 player map. ITR knows this and can therefore tighten his build by making the rax close to his CC. He does actually wall off.
Are you seriously saying that you know better than ITR who does not wall off in the beginning?
I didn't say "Terrans always build their rax at their ramp". I said "Terrans always wall off against zerg". Which he did. In both games. I do the exact same build on 4 players maps against Z. Because it's safe (six pool highly unlikely) and works for early mid game (good wall against blings, hellions can leave to harass without lifting buildings).
Read my previous comment. Inca got 6pooled game 1 vs Cool in ro8. He scouts the protoss base as last. The zerg did win but my point still stands.
Even on a 4 player map 6pooling is still an option. And this game was just in the GSL for the $85k grand prize. Are you telling me that Cool is retarded ?
Edit:
The reason I'm telling you and what others also tried to explain to you is that 6pooling is not impossible to stop which you clearly indicated when you don't wall off.
Which is where you were wrong.
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On October 07 2010 17:52 shannn wrote:
Cool is not retarded enough to six pool on a 4 player map.
Cool was retarded enough to 6 pool Inca on Kulas Ravine.... 
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On October 07 2010 17:55 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:52 shannn wrote:
Cool is not retarded enough to six pool on a 4 player map.
Cool was retarded enough to 6 pool Inca on Kulas Ravine....
Kulas Ravine isn't even a map.
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On October 07 2010 17:59 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:55 happyness wrote:On October 07 2010 17:52 shannn wrote:
Cool is not retarded enough to six pool on a 4 player map.
Cool was retarded enough to 6 pool Inca on Kulas Ravine.... Kulas Ravine isn't even a map.
Bad troll is bad.
Glad to see the map pool change, got tired pf playing Kulas anyway
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Remember everybody:
Kulas Ravine can't be a bad map, because it no longer exists.
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no gold expo, interesting.
also, i have brilliant idea how to make shakuras playable - spawning positions only top right and bottom left! (ye, i know im genius)
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On October 07 2010 17:52 shannn wrote:
Even on a 4 player map 6pooling is still an option. And this game was just in the GSL for the $85k grand prize. Are you telling me that Cool is retarded ?
Inca is a PROTOSS. Cool obviously knew the timings of that build on the map, it would have worked for any position. Note that his Ovie arrived at bottom right ramp pretty much the same time as his drone hit the bottom left map. His lings were just barely past the midpoint. He would have arrived at any protoss position before the wall completed or the first zealot was even out.
This wouldn't work against terran on Kulas because terran starts their rax earlier. If lings actually got to the terran's base before the first marine was out, zerg can do a shitton of damage. Except any terran would wall off on Kulas anyway (1 depot 1 rax) and the lings wouldn't arrive on time.
The reason I'm telling you and what others also tried to explain to you is that 6pooling is not impossible to stop which you clearly indicated when you don't wall off.
Which is where you were wrong.
6 pool where lings arrive before you have your first rine is impossible to stop as terran without walling. It will do significant damage if not outright kill you. This is a fact, unless you can will the lings to commit suicide instead of pulling SCVs.
Don't wall off against 6 pool on Steppes or some other close distance map and see how you do.
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On October 07 2010 17:38 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:32 Half wrote:
Yeah I'm an idiot for bringing legitimate criticism and analysis to Iccup maps instead of blindly accepting them like sheep. Only Iccup supporters are allowed to write in an angry rant style apparently.
You're an idiot for attacking someone whos contributed so much in such a varied way to the community with stupid generalizations made from ignorance. The fact that some of your criticisms happened to be relavent was mere coincidence. Kind of like Hitler disliking meat. But please continue the ad hominem and strawman tactics, it basically proves my point.
You have to state a point in order to prove it. As far as I can tell, you haven't actually said anything that hasn't been directly 100% factually refuted. You briefly inferred that Diamond was unprofessional, but I'm fairly sure that's not what the argument is actually about?
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On October 07 2010 18:01 arb wrote:
Bad troll is bad.
Glad to see the map pool change, got tired pf playing Kulas anyway
Are you calling me a troll for thinking it's window-lickingly idiotic to say that Toss and Terran shouldn't be allowed to wall in because it's unfair to the zerg?
I wasn't even talking specifically about six pools, there's a billion reasons why wall-ins are good, and six pool is one of them (on maps where it can arrive before you have enough units). Then two morons started bringing up the GSL finals, as if a 111 rax/factory walloff somehow proves that I'm wrong.
EDIT: I especially like the "proof" where Inca loses to a six pool while not having a walloff. You can bet your ass if he'd scouted cross positions first and saw the lings he'd have immediately made a 100% tight wallin since he didn't even have a zlot out.
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Hmm... I don't really like them. Jungle Basin is just going to be another Blistering, in other words another 4 warp gate all in heaven. Shakuras could be interesting I guess. After all, double rocks are more time consuming to break than single rocks. Furthermore if you try to backdoor rush and fail, you've opened up a very short path for counter attacks.
Thumbed down maps for the new pool:
Blistering Sands
Scrap Station
Jungle Basin
Might switch Scrap with Shakuras if it turns out to suck badly.
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On October 07 2010 17:55 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:52 shannn wrote:
Cool is not retarded enough to six pool on a 4 player map.
Cool was retarded enough to 6 pool Inca on Kulas Ravine....
How is 6-pool on a 4-player map even a bad idea? It's the best map for 4pool - you might not be scouted right away.
When you 6pool on a 4-player map you scout one position with your overlord and as you start your lings, you send a drone to another position. Then you'll know where they are(with no downtime) and can get there and kill your opponent.
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On October 07 2010 18:20 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:01 arb wrote:
Bad troll is bad.
Glad to see the map pool change, got tired pf playing Kulas anyway Are you calling me a troll for thinking it's window-lickingly idiotic to say that Toss and Terran shouldn't be allowed to wall in because it's unfair to the zerg? I wasn't even talking specifically about six pools, there's a billion reasons why wall-ins are good, and six pool is one of them (on maps where it can arrive before you have enough units). Then two morons started bringing up the GSL finals, as if a 111 rax/factory walloff somehow proves that I'm wrong. EDIT: I especially like the "proof" where Inca loses to a six pool while not having a walloff. You can bet your ass if he'd scouted cross positions first and saw the lings he'd have immediately made a 100% tight wallin since he didn't even have a zlot out.
Out of curiosity, oh wise one... if it is absolutely necessary for a player to wall off from a six pool, how come every ZvZ doesn't start with both players six pooling?
In your average 14 gas/14 pool build a zerg player actually gets his pool up AFTER a Terran gets his rax up by a fair bit because not only is your standard 12 rax started EARLIER, but it also only has 75% of the build time (60 seconds, vs 80 seconds).
So again, if walling is so neccesary, why don't all zergs die to 6pools anytime they don't get a pool earlier than 13 themselves?
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On October 07 2010 18:20 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:01 arb wrote:
Bad troll is bad.
Glad to see the map pool change, got tired pf playing Kulas anyway Are you calling me a troll for thinking it's window-lickingly idiotic to say that Toss and Terran shouldn't be allowed to wall in because it's unfair to the zerg? I wasn't even talking specifically about six pools, there's a billion reasons why wall-ins are good, and six pool is one of them (on maps where it can arrive before you have enough units). Then two morons started bringing up the GSL finals, as if a 111 rax/factory walloff somehow proves that I'm wrong.
Now you're just trolling. You should stop flaming too before you get warned/banned. You should respect the veterans (talking about ppl like mOnion etc) who were trying to give you advice.
The people talking to you were talking about six pools since you brought it up.
The point of the discussion was that you said 6pools are unstoppable against P/T when you don't wall off.
This is where you're wrong about. Whether it's a 2player map or 4 player map isn't the point and doesn't contribute to this argument of yours. The point is whether it was unstoppable. You are changing your point now. So just admit you were wrong on that point.
We did not say that you should never wall off we are just saying that it isn't necessary to always wall off against a 6pool respectively. Which you are every time contradicting with nonsense that do not contribute to your first point which you are trying to change now afterwards.
Edit:
And the reason why Inca lost was partly due his unlucky probe scouting the pool late but more importantly because of the open space the zerglings got which made the 6pool more effectively.
- Open space for zerglings
- a pylon that got destroyed
- drone block from 2nd gateway while InCa didn't completely walled off too
The reason why we said ITR of the GSL games was because you said and again like all of my and other's post towards you was because you said 6pool is unstoppable without a walloff and then you bring in an argument about that every Terran walls off because you do it too which is why we took ITR from one of the latest pro games in which he didn't walled off in the beginning while he could be 6pooled by someone who is known to 6pool on a 4 player map which you are also stating that Cool isn't retarded enough to 6pool on a 4 player map AND again stating you're wrong.
And then flaming everyone who tried to prove you're wrong?
I'm done I'm not gonna reply like mOnion is doing. Can't believe there are people like you who don't even accept that they're wrong when they are being given arguments to prove it.
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On October 07 2010 18:26 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:55 happyness wrote:On October 07 2010 17:52 shannn wrote:
Cool is not retarded enough to six pool on a 4 player map.
Cool was retarded enough to 6 pool Inca on Kulas Ravine.... How is 6-pool on a 4-player map even a bad idea? It's the best map for 4pool - you might not be scouted right away. When you 6pool on a 4-player map you scout one position with your overlord and as you start your lings, you send a drone to another position. Then you'll know where they are(with no downtime) and can get there and kill your opponent.
i agree, so a small 4 player map with short rush distances like shakuras is a 6pool heaven. btw has any1 tested if spawning vertically is possible? too lazy to read through 21 pages.
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On October 07 2010 17:55 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 17:52 shannn wrote:
Cool is not retarded enough to six pool on a 4 player map.
Cool was retarded enough to 6 pool Inca on Kulas Ravine....
That quote is wrong. It's from that other guy who removed some quote wrong and it made it look like I'm saying that statement which I didn't but replied to this argument stating he was wrong.
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Uh, wasn't shakuras an FFA map in the beta?
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EPT
