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On September 28 2010 00:51 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 00:48 Vimsey wrote:
I dont know if you missed my post on the last page but unit composition is also important to your figures.
I actually think you could have more of a point with 3 gate robo because i often have to wait on resources with those unit producing structures. Didn't miss it mate, infact think i addressed it. (i.e there isn't a single unit composition of 4gate that is lower than 100% of your resources used.. all around 130% minimum. The closest you can get to sustainable is Sentry Zealot - which in fairness i'm starting to see a bit more frequently now. - whether or not it's a good unit composition is up to you to decide though. edit: 3gate robo? I've never come across this, or if I have the game was such an easy win I didn't watch the replay so don't know about it :O re-edit: Ofcourse the point still remains that 4gate is all in, and thus doesnt have to be sustainable. and when people say "i 4gate, but not all in" it's safe to ignore as the current game stands. - you *can* transition out of it, but you put yourself horribly behind any standard build.
Your logic is flawed and the calculator you used is wrong too, you are better off using BO tester or some very easy AI, try both and compare the results. Taking supply costs into account is fine when you are racing to 200/200, not in a real match. Terran is similar when they get their first mule, they can suddenly drop 2 extra rax and start using them and 6rax or similar builds abuse it too for that extra few units you can squeeze out, but because mules can be kept up more less non-stop, the boost is never as big as finishing warpgate. Saving up 500 minerals is the point of the build.
Starcraft is too complex to be described with an equation and a lot of builds cut probes or units to make an expo, get a tech, upgrade, you are better off playing the game than toying around with a spreadsheet, especially because you know what is possible and what is not. The macro doesn't revolve around simple income=units.
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On September 28 2010 01:17 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 01:10 Scrimpton wrote:On September 28 2010 01:07 Vimsey wrote:On September 28 2010 00:51 Scrimpton wrote:On September 28 2010 00:48 Vimsey wrote:
I dont know if you missed my post on the last page but unit composition is also important to your figures.
I actually think you could have more of a point with 3 gate robo because i often have to wait on resources with those unit producing structures. Didn't miss it mate, infact think i addressed it. (i.e there isn't a single unit composition of 4gate that is lower than 100% of your resources used.. all around 130% minimum. The closest you can get to sustainable is Sentry Zealot - which in fairness i'm starting to see a bit more frequently now. - whether or not it's a good unit composition is up to you to decide though. edit: 3gate robo? I've never come across this, or if I have the game was such an easy win I didn't watch the replay so don't know about it :O re-edit: Ofcourse the point still remains that 4gate is all in, and thus doesnt have to be sustainable. and when people say "i 4gate, but not all in" it's safe to ignore as the current game stands. - you *can* transition out of it, but you put yourself horribly behind any standard build. Yes but the 50% example is by far the worst and also a composition you just wont see anways. If you have never seen a 3 gate robo i guess you have never seen a collosus either. Such a rare thing to see versus zerg. :p i was under the impression that 2:2:1 of zeal/stalker/sentry was pretty much safe., flexible adaptable. Either way, it's going to be very expensive whatever the unit comp. (VERY) And really.. are you sure you aren't mistyping 2gaterobo? :O I've never noticed anybody try to 1base 3 gates and a robo lol! and if your saying collosus.. 3gate robo and an additional tech building??? wow i guess this in in silver or something? because any normal game you would be scouted and taken out so quickly whilst trying to overproduce and tech at such a strange level :O I can assure you its not as expensive using your calculator and as I said before you are factoring in probe production past 24 probes and then not adding them to the worker count for the calculation. I will normally only produce one or two sentries with one build and another I have a zealot sentry mix. So either you should take out probe production or rethink it entirely. This is why there are many 4 gate builds because some are looking to fast expand and econ and others are looking to proxy pylon and warp in a lot of units from a stockpile of mins in your base. 3 gate robo is a standard build so get off your high horse with the silver shit. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Gate_Robo_Timing_Attack_(vs._Zerg)Anyway I am done talking to a pretentious prick.
Here is the link to it: http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/protoss.php
Try to find a unit comp that is below 150% mineral consumption, and also below 170% Gas consumption (this is without building probes as you requested) Now tell me it isn't all in =0.
I'm not trying to rile your feathers, i just find it odd how you keep insisting that it's "cheap" to produce off 4 gate or 3gate robo, in the face of solid numbers, and multiple player testimony in this thread.
We're past the part where we discussed whether or not it was worth it (it clearly is, as 4gate is a strategy that works exceptionally well, especially when thrown in as part of a more rounded playstyle, in say a tournament)
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I've messed around with 3gate robo, a little, but found 4gate, or 2gate robo to be a lot more managable (for me at least). If I go 2gate robo, I will be able to get thermal lance upgrade that much faster. I really just use 4gate vs players I know I am better than (friends oftentimes). If I contain, or make a successful push early on, giving me a slightly faster expansion than normal, then I am more likely to throw down a 3rd (or 4th sometimes...) gate to go with my gate+robo combination. It really all just depends on the flow of the game, but as a rule, I don't 4 gate unless I want, and know, I can end it quickly.
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On September 28 2010 01:19 Lipstickz wrote:
You haven't watched a lot of "Pro"toss players in the recent tournaments after the patch, have you? 3 gate robo is quite normal these days. It's really not a "silver league build" as you said.
spot on; been a busy week for me since the patch. Seems that "standard" for P seems to be "all in" for everyone else. i just find it funny, considering P has such a solid macro style, and an incredible late game... to risk it all on one early push :O
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I had a look through this topic for a bit and decided to test things out a bit myself.
So I played against a very easy comp just to macro obviously, but the results were a bit confusing considering the theorycrafting in this thread.
Constant probe production until I hit 30 for max saturation.
Never supply blocked.
13 Gate, 14 Gas and then Core asap obviously.
1 Zealot and another gate.
Warp gate tech asap as well.
I keep producing out of the gateways and then lay a third gateway as I get money and it finishes in time for warpgate.
Now that I got 3 warpgates I still have a bit too much minerals to spend immediately, so 4 warpgates takes effect right away.
But here's what I tried - Do nothing but watch the warp gates and chrono boost them whenever possible and just produce ASAP. I could not spend all my resources on 3 gates.. Seriously, that's real testing there not focusing on anything else other than getting pylons(Yes I had 30 probes)
I even started spamming 100% stalkers and 3 gates still wouldn't spend all my minerals, even less so the gas.
I really couldn't find anything that I might've missed so.. It seems to me 4 gate is really useful.
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not sure if it's a good idea to go pure zealot though  - prove me wrong though! - of course this is without the pylon cost, so you are assuming you consistently lose the 4 zealots before the cooldown of the next 4?
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On September 28 2010 01:28 Scrimpton wrote:not sure if it's a good idea to go pure zealot though - prove me wrong though! - of course this is without the pylon cost, so you are assuming you consistently lose the 4 zealots before the cooldown of the next 4?
If you're not going pure zealot, your numbers would be off even more because gas sentries AND stalkers are both more mineral efficient than zealots because of their extra gas requirement.
Sentries have 32 seconds cooldown, which is 24.064 seconds real time. In 24.064 seconds you can mine 127 vespene gas. So 1 gateway can produce a sentry on cooldown.
If we were to set 1 gateway to produce sentries on cooldown and the rest on zealots
Minerals used per second = Sentry (50/24.064 = 2.077) + 3 Zealots (300/20.3 = 14.7) = 16.777 Considering you mine 20.64 minerals per second in a fully saturated base you are getting a surplus of 3.9 minerals per real-time second. At that rate, you will have enough minerals for a pylon every 25.6 seconds which is less than the cooldown for gateways.
So you can run 4 gateways on cooldown while making pylons with a fully saturated base
Long story short, your math is wrong.
Edit: Liquipedia uses different resource rates from sc2legacy so I'll re-calculate using liquipedia's rates.
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On September 27 2010 23:39 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 23:33 Butigroove wrote:- Easy as fuck.
- Strong as hell.
With BBcode for more lols. This in a nutshell. You don't need to utilize two separate building structures and it relies on one key (and cheap) upgrade. The only things you need to remember to do are: - make probes
- chrono boost
- set gateways to warp gate
- locate "w" key
I'm sure profit lies somewhere in there, but I haven't really found it yet...
Can you really sustain a 4 gate with chronoboost???
I've actually never done the strat so I have no clue.
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On September 28 2010 01:23 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 01:17 Vimsey wrote:On September 28 2010 01:10 Scrimpton wrote:On September 28 2010 01:07 Vimsey wrote:On September 28 2010 00:51 Scrimpton wrote:On September 28 2010 00:48 Vimsey wrote:
I dont know if you missed my post on the last page but unit composition is also important to your figures.
I actually think you could have more of a point with 3 gate robo because i often have to wait on resources with those unit producing structures. Didn't miss it mate, infact think i addressed it. (i.e there isn't a single unit composition of 4gate that is lower than 100% of your resources used.. all around 130% minimum. The closest you can get to sustainable is Sentry Zealot - which in fairness i'm starting to see a bit more frequently now. - whether or not it's a good unit composition is up to you to decide though. edit: 3gate robo? I've never come across this, or if I have the game was such an easy win I didn't watch the replay so don't know about it :O re-edit: Ofcourse the point still remains that 4gate is all in, and thus doesnt have to be sustainable. and when people say "i 4gate, but not all in" it's safe to ignore as the current game stands. - you *can* transition out of it, but you put yourself horribly behind any standard build. Yes but the 50% example is by far the worst and also a composition you just wont see anways. If you have never seen a 3 gate robo i guess you have never seen a collosus either. Such a rare thing to see versus zerg. :p i was under the impression that 2:2:1 of zeal/stalker/sentry was pretty much safe., flexible adaptable. Either way, it's going to be very expensive whatever the unit comp. (VERY) And really.. are you sure you aren't mistyping 2gaterobo? :O I've never noticed anybody try to 1base 3 gates and a robo lol! and if your saying collosus.. 3gate robo and an additional tech building??? wow i guess this in in silver or something? because any normal game you would be scouted and taken out so quickly whilst trying to overproduce and tech at such a strange level :O I can assure you its not as expensive using your calculator and as I said before you are factoring in probe production past 24 probes and then not adding them to the worker count for the calculation. I will normally only produce one or two sentries with one build and another I have a zealot sentry mix. So either you should take out probe production or rethink it entirely. This is why there are many 4 gate builds because some are looking to fast expand and econ and others are looking to proxy pylon and warp in a lot of units from a stockpile of mins in your base. 3 gate robo is a standard build so get off your high horse with the silver shit. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Gate_Robo_Timing_Attack_(vs._Zerg)Anyway I am done talking to a pretentious prick. Here is the link to it: http://haploid.nl/sc2/unit_production/protoss.phpTry to find a unit comp that is below 150% mineral consumption, and also below 170% Gas consumption (this is without building probes as you requested) Now tell me it isn't all in =0. I'm not trying to rile your feathers, i just find it odd how you keep insisting that it's "cheap" to produce off 4 gate or 3gate robo, in the face of solid numbers, and multiple player testimony in this thread. We're past the part where we discussed whether or not it was worth it (it clearly is, as 4gate is a strategy that works exceptionally well, especially when thrown in as part of a more rounded playstyle, in say a tournament)
Why do you initiate a discussion when you indeed ARE a pretentious prick? You disagree for the sake of disagreeing and refuse to acknowledge facts; Yet you embrace your holy 'link' without any scepticism towards it.
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The main problem I've noticed, and Day9 hit on it, was that people often start getting far too much gas when they go 4gate, and instead of adjusting their build slightly, or putting more probes on mining, they just push out a sentry each time it hits 100 gas. The main problem here is how soon after the sentry is made, the push comes. If you can get the sentries out before the warpgate upgrade is done, and the 4th gate has been upgraded (in which case, some might find 3 gate to be a lot more viable), then I find it to be a lot more cost effective. I really think 4 gate is a lot more viable if people would not over-saturate the gas so fast. I don't really do well with the specific mathematics of individual builds, but I am just speaking from my (amateur) experience.
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On September 28 2010 01:27 Ganches wrote:
I had a look through this topic for a bit and decided to test things out a bit myself.
So I played against a very easy comp just to macro obviously, but the results were a bit confusing considering the theorycrafting in this thread.
Constant probe production until I hit 30 for max saturation.
Never supply blocked.
13 Gate, 14 Gas and then Core asap obviously.
1 Zealot and another gate.
Warp gate tech asap as well.
I keep producing out of the gateways and then lay a third gateway as I get money and it finishes in time for warpgate.
Now that I got 3 warpgates I still have a bit too much minerals to spend immediately, so 4 warpgates takes effect right away.
But here's what I tried - Do nothing but watch the warp gates and chrono boost them whenever possible and just produce ASAP. I could not spend all my resources on 3 gates.. Seriously, that's real testing there not focusing on anything else other than getting pylons(Yes I had 30 probes)
I even started spamming 100% stalkers and 3 gates still wouldn't spend all my minerals, even less so the gas.
I really couldn't find anything that I might've missed so.. It seems to me 4 gate is really useful.
interesting. I've just pulled up the numbers for 3gate off the site (pure stalker)
Resource Consumed Mined
Minerals 14.06 / sec 13.6 / sec 103%
Vespene Gas 4.69 / sec 3.8 / sec 123%
Perhaps the inability to spend the minerals/gas was due to the buildup prior to the gates finishing.
Eventually, with perfect macro, you *should* even out. The benefits of being able to even out quicker with 4gate are becoming more and more obvious now (another big thanks to the helpful posts!).
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[/QUOTE]
Why do you initiate a discussion when you indeed ARE a pretentious prick? You disagree for the sake of disagreeing and refuse to acknowledge facts; Yet you embrace your holy 'link' without any scepticism towards it.[/QUOTE]
You're so far off the mark it's kinda embarrassing :S. - from the start I said I'm happy to be proven wrong, not that I'd blindly agree with everything you say just because you say it. -infact if you read the thread, i've reconsidered my position on the 4gate every time a well brought up point has been made. That to me doesn't link to "blindly disagreeing"
Now **** off  lol!
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What type of 4 gate needs to be explained in the OP. Day[9] likes to explain it as having 3 basic varieties, based on cheesiness or all-in-ness and economics balance. I'd almost say there are even 5 varieties, if you want to be anal about it.
As far as effectiveness, I think the cheesy version builds are easily defended as T if you have a hint they are coming. As T, you can start to go for a defensive tech/expand build... scout a 4 gate, and then switch to more bio and bunker(s).
In general I think the more economic builds aren't made to be all-in, and are often either an attempt to defend a land based attack or put pressure on a greedy opponent.
PvP is it's own special animal... not even going to comment there.
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On September 28 2010 01:32 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 01:28 Scrimpton wrote:not sure if it's a good idea to go pure zealot though - prove me wrong though! - of course this is without the pylon cost, so you are assuming you consistently lose the 4 zealots before the cooldown of the next 4? If you're not going pure zealot, your numbers would be off even more because gas sentries AND stalkers are both more mineral efficient than zealots because of their extra gas requirement. Sentries have 32 seconds cooldown, which is 24.064 seconds real time. In 24.064 seconds you can mine 127 vespene gas. So 1 gateway can produce a sentry on cooldown. If we were to set 1 gateway to produce sentries on cooldown and the rest on zealots Minerals used per second = Sentry (50/24.064 = 2.077) + 3 Zealots (300/20.3 = 14.7) = 16.777 Considering you mine 20.64 minerals per second in a fully saturated base you are getting a surplus of 3.9 minerals per real-time second. At that rate, you will have enough minerals for a pylon every 25.6 seconds which is less than the cooldown for gateways. So you can run 4 gateways on cooldown while making pylons with a fully saturated baseLong story short, your math is wrong.
Hey, I'm not able to check whether your maths, or the math of Haploid and his tool are correct, so the best way you can help is to direct your Help to the thread created for the tool and it's feedback (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155279)
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ive always found that when pushing with a 4 gate and warping into a proxy pylon at the opponents base i can usually only get in 3 rounds of units with the 4th slightly delayed. As you use up the minerals you saved while researching warp gates it does seem to equalize. However that doesnt matter. Since warpgates produce instantly while they are on CD you are effectively producing a unit in the sense an egg or barracks would be. As long as your are keeping all 4 warpgates on CD at the same time then they arnt wasted as the OP would make it seem.
There are also a ton of different styles of 4 gating. Day9 did a really nice daily on it. Its not all in depending on how many units you warp in and how you play with the ones you have out. If you use it purely as a pressure build that has the potential to win the game if you notice a weak defense then its not cheesy or allin. It lets you get down a expansion and you have the extra production building already up for when your expo is done. However, the pressure build version can be countered pretty hard by fast cloaked banshees due to the late robo.
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Scrimpton, you are plain wrong. But keep doing the "religious defense" and keep selecting the stupidest answers, leaving out the ones who pointed out the fundamental flaws in your logic.
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4 gate seems weak in the long run if it fails. You're stuck with mass gateway units and you've committed so many resources into that that it's hard to transition out of.
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On September 28 2010 01:48 MilesTeg wrote:
Scrimpton, you are plain wrong. But keep doing the "religious defense" and keep selecting the stupidest answers, leaving out the ones who pointed out the fundamental flaws in your logic.
instead of a mindless badposting, please point out the part where I ignore somebody, rather than thanking them for their input and re-evaluating my position.
Cheers for your input though.
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I messed around with the calculator, if you cut production of probes, take out pylons (some are usually stockpiled before warpgates are up and you lose units in battle obviously) and build at a 3:2:1 Zealot/Stalker/Sentry ratio you get 98%/117% Mineral/Gas consumption. Usually you have a bit of extra gas before the gates are up so it doesn't seem all that unreasonable since macro won't be instantaneous and with the little bit extra minerals you should be able to squeeze out required pylons.
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EPT
